michael,
I stand corrected. Yes, I have heard of such cases.
Barkley Rosser
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 1:58 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:8734] Re: farewell to academe
>No, Barkeley. He was well liked, but students flocked to his classes,
>stranding other teachers without a flock. They resented his teaching --
>or at least the students' response to it.
>
>On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:50:16PM -0500, J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. wrote:
>> michael,
>> I think you are overstating it here. I doubt that
>> it is an actual negative in most places, although there
>> are certainly many places where it simply does not
>> count at all, either negative or positive. There are
>> ways to check on the standards used, e.g. by looking
>> at grades given or by asking students on an evaluation
>> form what the "level of challenge" was in the class.
>> I suspect what you saw was a case where they did
>> not want the person for other reasons, politics, research,
>> personality issues, whatever, and had to dismiss his/her
>> apparent ability as a teacher. That happens a lot, but it
>> is hardly the same thing as saying that the good teaching
>> was actually a negative. Was this person actually fired
>> because they were a good teacher? The only way I can
>> imagine that happening is out of jealousy by colleagues.
>> But that would only happen if good teaching mattered. If
>> it doesn't, then why bother?
>> Barkley Rosser
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:42 PM
>> Subject: [PEN-L:8709] Re: farewell to academe
>>
>>
>> >Actually, good teaching is a negative in hiring. It can always be
>> >explained away. He/she had low standards. I saw that pulled on the
best
>> >teacher in my department in Berkeley.
>> >
>> >On Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:26:04PM -0500, Nathan Newman wrote:
>> >> What is sad is that teaching is so little respected in hiring
decisions.
>> I
>> >> have to say that I was incredibly spoiled getting to go to the small
>> liberal
>> >> arts college thing. At Amherst, students sat on hiring committees and
>> >> student letters would kill a prof coming up for tenure if he or she
>> stunk,
>> >> so the faculty either were good teachers or learned how to do it at an
>> >> acceptable level. It amazes me that at both Berkeley and Yale, really
>> >> terrible teaching is allowed to exist and it makes almost no
difference
>> in
>> >> hiring and tenure decisions.
>> >>
>> >> My basic attitude is that a good teacher, even with conservative
>> politics,
>> >> is a far more radical thing than a radical prof who sucks at teaching.
A
>> >> good teacher awakens excitement and engagement and I think that is
>> >> ultimately more likely to lead to radical reevaluation of the world
and
>> >> possibilities.
>> >>
>> >> It is the deadening of imagination that most breeds apathy and
acceptance
>> of
>> >> the status quo.
>> >>
>> >> It's not that I denigrate radical scholarship, since I'm a good
consumer
>> of
>> >> it, but there is no question in my mind that my radicalism was more
fed
>> by
>> >> the good teachers I had early in life, and not necessarily just the
>> radical
>> >> ones, far more than any particular book I may have read.
>> >>
>> >> -- Nathan Newman
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Michael Yates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:39 PM
>> >> Subject: [PEN-L:8698] Re: Re: farewell to academe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Nathan,
>> >>
>> >> Your comments are very well taken. Two comments: Most teachers are
not
>> >> very good at it and do not take the time to learn how to teach
>> >> effectively. Second, new teachers, including progressives, say that
>> >> they cannot make waves til they get tenure. But passivity becomes a
>> >> habit, and it is rare inded that a professor who kept quiet for 7
years
>> >> suddenly becomes a troublemaker. I have supported for tenure some
>> >> persons with whom I had sharp political disagreements just because
they
>> >> were troublemakers from the start.
>> >>
>> >> Michael Yates
>> >>
>> >> Nathan Newman wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > I have to say that I have great sympathy for Michael's commentary on
>> left
>> >> > academia. I never really intended to be an academic, although there
>> were
>> >> > short periods when I considered it while working on my Ph.D., but
the
>> >> > biggest deterrent was that I didn't want "to be" any of the folks I
saw
>> in
>> >> > the professoriat-- talking the talk but doing almost nothing to
engage
>> >> snip
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >--
>> >Michael Perelman
>> >Economics Department
>> >California State University
>> >Chico, CA 95929
>> >
>> >Tel. 530-898-5321
>> >E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>--
>Michael Perelman
>Economics Department
>California State University
>Chico, CA 95929
>
>Tel. 530-898-5321
>E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
