Elaine -HFB- Ashton writes:
: Joseph N. Hall [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
: *>Eek. Please tell me this list hasn't turned into Mars Needs Women.
: *>I guess for the moment it has.
I think it is quite telling to note that it's *this* list that has turned
(rather delightfully) into Mars Needs Women, rather than some other
list like p5p. Can you imagine the discussion staying as nice as this
one has if it were in p5p? No, I can't either.
The question is, why is that? And how could it (or should it) be fixed?
We can talk a lot about things we can't do much about in society, like
getting parents to downplay gender stereotypes, but what can we do
that's closer to where we live? We can't easily set the cultural tone
that will encourage girls to go into technology, but maybe we can do
something about the tone of the Perl community that discourages them
from coming in.
For people who are just starting to think about this sort of thing, I
recommend the recent CPSR newsletter for some interesting background
about all this:
http://www.cpsr.org/publications/newsletters/issues/2000/Winter2000/index.html
I've actually been thinking about this since a year and a half ago,
when I attended the Tokyo Perl Conference, and discovered that, unlike
the U.S. Perl Conference, the ratio there was pretty much 50/50. I'm
still not sure why that is, but after reading the newsletter above, I
suspect it might be in part because Japanese men on the whole are
taught to be polite. And when men are polite, women feel welcome.
Which brings me back to p5p. I suspect the reason women avoid p5p is
because it's thought of as a place where things are thrashed out, and
tempers are lost, and common courtesy frequently goes flying right out
the window. By and large, I think women are smart enough to know that
when men get into a head-butting contest, they're not particularly
interested in consensus. When boys are being boys, the girls
rightfully say, "Oh, ick, let's go play somewhere else."
I think a big problem with our culture is that us guys think that
head-butting is the only way to solve problems. Perhaps it's okay
that p5p is a head-butting place, but there ought to be other places
that solve problems other ways. And perl-trainers may be one of those
places--it's naturally about sharing "what works for us", rather than
trying to get other people to bow to your invincible logic and/or
aggressive persona.
: The question of women in Perl classes is an interesting one and, since
: trainers are at the front line getting people interested in and trained in
: Perl, they bear a unique role in observing trends and possibly helping to
: change them. It is germane to Perl as a whole unless the flock that Larry
: wishes to assemble is almost all male.
Why would I be interested in limiting the use of Perl to 50% of the
species? That's one of the reasons in my last State of the Onion I
talked about "franchising the disenfranchised". I wasn't just talking
about third world countries.
The question to my mind is, what else can we do to build forums in which
women feel welcome? I have this vision of a Slashdot in which women
are given five times as many moderation points as men. I think it
would be a much more civilized place. :-)
: *>Donna, for example, is a very skilled and clear-thinking programmer.
: *>But she doesn't seem to come up with the Big Ideas. She takes bits
: *>and pieces and fits them together, mutates them, writes whatever is
: *>needed to fill in the gaps. She doesn't visualize and create whole
: *>new things as a rule.
:
: I recently read Richard Feynman's "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out"
: which is a collection of his interviews and short works. In one of the
: interviews he was asked why there weren't more women in science to which
: he related a delightful story of how when his son was little he enjoyed
: being told bedtime stories which he embellished upon whereas his daughter
: would become petulant if he strayed from the book. I found that brilliant,
: not only because he didn't answer the question directly, but that it
: speaks volumes in what it doesn't say.
Yes, we mustn't forget that the false stereotypes are based on true ones.
The way forward is not to deny the differences between men and women
(or anyone else) but to make practial use of those differences. TMTOWTDI.
: There are lots of aspects of the computing field that could appeal to
: women and I think Perl is one of them....but I'll get off my soapbox.
Why? Your soapbox is just the sort of pedestal we should put women on.
I agree that a lot of Perl culture seems like it should have a lot of
appeal to women. Particularly if it can function as a "leg up" into
other fields. If we can figure out the spots where we're turning the
women off, maybe we can do something about it, and be more helpful to
more people. Not to mention being an example to others.
So keep talking. (That's not an order, it's more of a pretty please and
thank you with chocolate-coated sugar bombs on top.)
Larry
