On 9/20/2010 11:33 AM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Le 20/09/2010 17:50, Levente Uzonyi a écrit :
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
Really I don't understand CUIS long term objective, why this work is not
done in Pharo? They share the same vision.
You could ask the same question with Pharo and Squeak instead of Cuis
and Pharo, couldn't you?
No, I can't.
Pharo provides me a clear vision I can trust: a Smalltalk environment
to build third party applications (ie makes my developer life easier).
Squeak does not provide me this thrust nor indication of that direction.
You can object it is matter of point of view, I will object it is a
matter of ressources you can allocate to write an application. Mine are
limited: I start writing DrGeo under Squeak, then I continued with
Pharo. I can really fell the difference: nice Widgets, cleaner system I
can understand, ease to integrate changes/improvements upstream. All in
all, I get the job done more nicely from my perspective.
I too agree. It is very nice to have a clean, clear vision statement in
which the community can put its resources behind to accomplish. We can
accomplish more together than each alone. The whole is greater than the
sum of its parts. Without a unifying vision, you have the sum of its
parts. With a vision, you have common goal, a unifying purpose. You have
something that can inspire. Something that can guide, in where to draw
lines, what to add, what to cut, what belongs in, what belongs out.
You can do most anything in either Squeak or Pharo that you can do in
the other. But ultimately I believe that Pharo is moving in a direction
which empowers more people. Many of the Squeak users can use Squeak for
most anything they need or want, primarily because they are very
skilled/expert in both Smalltalk/Squeak and also interfacing outside
systems via FFI, Alien, plugins, etc. But for those of us who are not so
able, who do not have the training or knowledge, Pharo's vision and
implementation therefore will IMHO be more enabling and empowering,
especially to the less than expert, the little guy. And when Pharo
achieves the smaller cleaner core, it will also be more
enabling/empowering to the expert.
Pharo is explicitly more business friendly in its vision, goals,
leadership and community.
I am a huge advocate of business in open source. I think as business
prospers within the Squeak/Pharo communities that the community improves
as does the artifact itself. It is my opinion that Pharo is explicitly
more open towards this synergy with business. Squeak is not necessarily
against such, but is more of the perspective of we happen to be walking
together in the same direction.
Pharo is explicitly pro-business.
Squeak will not prohibit, but not really support. And yes I know there
are businesses based upon Squeak, but primarily owned and operated by
experts.
For me my initial push into Pharo came simply from
wanting/requiring/desiring code completion in workspaces and the
browsers. Squeak was and is broken on OCompletion. And I did not see any
other alternatives. I read all the messages, tried many things. No
success. Even today the issue pops up again on the list. 5 months after
the last series of messages which had no clear answer on how to get it
working in Squeak. Pharo it just worked out of the box. And thank you
Levente for showing how to get it working in Squeak.
That might be a little thing, but it is an important thing and it
highlights some of the differences and goals of the two projects and
communities.
I am not against Squeak. I would that we were all one big happy family
putting all our energies into something that works for all. But that is
not the case and one has to choose where to put ones energies and time.
Hopefully most efforts will be usable by both. But as each diverge that
may be increasingly difficult.
I presently do not see a Pro-business or even particularly
business-friendly vision from Squeak.
Just my perspective and opinions.
Thanks.
Jimmie
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