Please ask him to stop. One positive thing has come out of this... It's encouraged me to get BitTorrent up and running at home. My machine's not on 24/7, but while it is up, it should help. :-)
In the mean time, I'll set a rule to send messages from him right to the trash. (The equivalent of sticking my fingers in my ears and humming while he talks -- childish, but satisfying.) > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwanke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 19:23 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: bittorrent/mirrors > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David A. > Desrosiers > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:56 PM > To: Plucker General List > Subject: RE: bittorrent/mirrors > > > > If it so immoral to charge for your time and energy why do > you charge > > your boss to pay your wages? I am sure you make money > somehow. Why not > > work for them for free? > > --- you --- > You really don't want to get into this with me, especially me. > > --- me --- > > Actually, I do. That's probably why I am here. I wasn't > looking for this > discussion and infact tried 3 times to not have it. But it > seemed like > I kept getting invited back and so I took it as a sign to stay. You're > the authority on this list so you hold control as to when to end the > conversation. > > > --- you --- > I have been officially unemployed for 697 days. That's 100 > weeks, > as of today. I do not have a "boss", and I do not charge them for my > time. > On contracting projects I work on, I get paid for my insight, my code, > my > time, and my hard work. This is called trade. I trade my time > and skills > for something someone else needs. It is a mutually-agreeable > arrangement. > > --- me --- > > And what then is wrong with doing this with the software you are > writing? If you define it as being 'worth' say, as a random number, 5 > dollars, to download your software. If they choose to download it then > its mutually agreeable. > > For your contracts, do you always let your contractors define exactly > what they are going to pay you? Wouldn't they always want it for free? > Do you ever turn down an offer because you feel its unfair to > you? This > is the same thing with offering your software to the public for a > reasonable charge. Esepcially since YOU get to define reasonable. > > --- you --- > > If I didn't have to pay for a mortgage, food, fuel bills, power, > bandwidth, and other things, I would certainly not feel bad > working for > free, as long as it is something I believe in. In fact, a good > percentage > of my time is given away, gratis, to the community at large, > on several > projects, mailing lists, websites, documents, and literally > hundreds of > other things. I do these things gratis, because I believe in them, in > some > way or another. I don't require "payment" for things I believe in. Do > you > get paid to preach the word of God to people? I've read your website. > Would you find that immoral? Why do you do it for free? > > --- me --- > > But the point is you DO have mortgage, food, fuel bills, > power bandwidth > and other things to pay for. You even have more bandwidth to > allow the > direct download of your software to pay for but your choosing not to. > > And I don't preach for free. I actually didn't realize I was > preaching. > This is my natural mode of conversation with nearly everyone > I meet. Its > how God has wired me and I don't shrink from it or try to hide it. > > I serve God. And I get paid with my life. My needs are > provided by those > around me that feel inclined to provide them and my wants are provided > by gifts also by those that feel like providing them. I havnt actually > been employed for over 6 years. (That's 300 weeks if we're > counting) Not > even contract work and owe over twenty thousand dollars in debts to > people that I accrued through my drug abuse. Ive been told by > the doctor > because of my mental condition from the drug abuse I cant work in the > public workforce without extreme supervision that nobody is > really going > to provide and still pay me with an income. So if nothing else I envy > you that you CAN pay your own way in this world. I have to live my > entire life on gifts and handouts. > > > -- us -- > > Or did you get your computer for free, your car or other mode of > > transportation for free, your house or other living area for free, > food > > on the table, clothes on your back, etc etc. > > No, in fact I didn't. I worked hard to achieve those things, > because they are "required" here in the US, for basic > transportation and > common decency to function in society. If society could > function without > them, I would certainly go without. I've had to make a LOT of > sacrifices > over the last few years, and I'm not about to sacrifice something I > believe in, just because someone else doesn't agree with it. > > -- me -- > > What did I ask you to sacrifice? > > > -- us -- > > > If you had no need for money you wouldn't have such a problem paying > for > > a server to host the files directly. If you find it personally > revolting > > to be paid for YOUR time and energy then just take the > money needed to > > pay for the server and donate the rest to a charitable > organization of > > your choice. > > Excuse me, I do. 50% of -every- donation I receive goes to the > FSF > (Free Software Foundation), to help fund -their- cause, which just > happens > to align well with the cause most of us believe in.. the freedom and > ongoing liberty of Free Software. > > -- me -- > > So then my solution works, (I think someone else mentioned it > to, I know > its not unique). Just take enough money to pay for the download server > and donate the rest to the FSF. > > > -- us -- > > > Just charge for http/ftp downloads. Then you could leave the > bittorrent > > up for people who want to mess with it but provide a quick and easy > > access for those that don't want to use it or don't trust it or for > > whatever reason object to its use. > > I have a better idea. Distribute the files over BitTorrent > during > heavy load times as well as regular http downloads. If mirrors wish to > obtain the files, they can use the supplied BitTorrent links, and make > their own mirror. I'll be happy to link to it and advertise > its location > on the Plucker website. If people don't wish to use BitTorrent (like > yourself), then they can wait until it appears on a mirror of their > choice > (assuming there is one), or not. > > Oh wait, we're already doing that. Problem solved. > > -- me -- > > And you measure your success how? By the number of people you > turn away > because they don't want to mess around with third and fourth party > software just to get yours? And please try to show me numbers of how > successful you are at me. For every one person that comes to your site > that downloads it I gaurentee there is atleast one or two > more that say. > "Sorry, not worth the effort." If you believed so much in the > freedom of > your own software then you would be willing to let people who WANT to > pay for it PAY FOR IT so that they can download it too. THIS > IS A MUTUAL > AGREEABLE ARANGEMENT. I am not asking you to do away with bittorrent > unless you feel inclined to do so. But just offer a paying alternative > for those that feel honor bound to pay for it and NOT use bittorrent. > Give them the choice. You want freedom? Give THEM freedom. > Right now you > are forcing everyone into your definition of freedom, that's not > freedom, that's just dictatorship under a different name. > > Ill give you an example from real life: > > Soup kitchens. Soup kitchens are there to provide free meals to the > hungry. But they will not TURN AWAY someone that wants to > pay. If that > person WANTS TO PAY then they allow them to pay and put the money > towards a good cause. > > Im sure you have had situations in your life where you have done a > friend a favor and they have wanted to pay you. How hard did > you fight > them to have them not pay you? Did you turn away that friend and take > back the gift because they refused to not not pay you? > > Right now you are so high in your own mightyness about free software > that your blinded by your own version of greed, or sice we > seem to share > a common vocabulary, self righteousness. > > --- us --- > > > Being that ive already gotten it working Id probably use bittorrent > the > > way I and several others on the list have described, as just a > download > > tool, but had I been been a first time user to the site and seen a 5 > > dollar download option I may have gone with it instead. > > This is because you completely misunderstand the technology, and > are used to "leeching", given your self-described jaded past of openly > and > knowingly violating copyright by illegally distributing commerical > software for download. > > --- me --- > > No, ive overcome that. I recognize the difference. I choose > not to use > p2p solutions for two reasons. > > 1) It slows down someone elses connection to the internet on my cable > link and during prime time that can be quite noticeable and that is a > very unfair application of my bandwidth, never mind the fact > that enough > of it and I can get kicked off the network. Never mind the countless > people (though not me thankfully) that are on pay to play cable that > purchases bandwidth by use. > > Yeah, by forcing them to use p2p peer that uploads on its own your > COSTING THEM MONEY. Only that money is going to their cable > company and > not to the FSF. > > 2) It DIRECTLY supports the 'leeching' that you are referring to in a > broader sense. It encourages more massive downloads and faster > distribution of stolen software. Case in point are the bittorent file > sites. They are nothing but listings of stolen property > references. Even > if things such as redhat made it on the list I gaurentee it would be > flooded off within a day by even more references to music, video and > software files. > > --- you --- > > You can use BitTorrent as a downloading tool if you wish, but > even > if you wanted to just use it to download, it is still > uploading while it > is downloading. In a very small way, you're still contributing and > uploading back to other BitTorrent users, whether you like it > or not. It > doesn't download the whole file, -then- begin uploading it. > It downloads > a > piece, then uploads that, and begins the upload/download process, > synchronously, until your full local file is downloaded. When you > disconnect, you've still contributed quite a bit back to > other users by > uploading the pieces you already have. > > --- me --- > > That doesn't bother me as its impact on my system and the network is > negligible. It's the continued impact on the system over time that I > object to for reason 1. Reason 2 doesn't apply to this instance but to > the overall popularity instance. If I leave it up for the minute it > takes to download the file and I upload it 5 times to someone > else. Ok. > That's nice. But if I left it up for an hour and uploaded 100 or more > times. I would be promoting bittorrent in a way that I would not be > comfortable with. > > > Anyway if ive stepped over any boundaries let me know. I can get > > intense in conversations and not always guauge the receiver > best. Ill > > apologize for any offenses that I may have made against you > personally. > > No offense taken. I have a very thick skin. > > > --- you --- > > > I think you need to tone down your "My Way Is The Right Way(tm)" > diatribe. Insulting a group of users and developers who have produced > something -you- find useful, is not a good way to earn and > keep friends > in > the community. You should know that from your own personal belief > system. > > --- me --- > > I'm not worried. Im confident the conversation went as > intended. If you > know my belief system well then youll know that this could have (don't > claim to know that it actually was) a money changers in the temple > courts affair, Jesus spent a lot of his time pissing people off and it > has its time and place, especially if it gets people to think about > things they normaly don't think about. Sometimes ruffling a few > feathers or out and out burning them comes with the territory. > > > _______________________________________________ > plucker-list mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.rubberchicken.org/mailman/listinfo/plucker-list > _______________________________________________ plucker-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.rubberchicken.org/mailman/listinfo/plucker-list
