To me, an uninformed and basically ignorant Linux user, this exchange appears to be an argument (sometimes nasty) between two philosophers. Because, as is the case in all philosophical arguments, the vocabulary is esoteric I cannot profit from reading the dialog. Not to say that my lack of understanding is typical of other readers.
Are there any readers of this discussion having a suitable pedagogical bent willing to present the issues to those needing education? -Denis On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:03 PM, benjamin barber <starwor...@gmail.com> wrote: > The overuse of metaphors and lack of specificity is used to make truisms > appear to be insightful. As i understand there are several init systems > that were able to 'fix' what was wrong with SysV init. However what is not > made readily apparent is an init system needs encompass gobbling up network > configuration, user logins, the shell, and standard error. It also seems > reasonable to suspect that this exposes a large attack surface, which could > render the malicious code nearly opaque to inspection from outside. This is > the same sort of design philosphy which lead to the issues in windows with > privilege escalation to begin with. Furthermore we saw the same thing > happen to pulseaudio, where it became and still is a giant mess (i have to > run pulseaudio -k several times daily for bluetooth), which was foisted on > the community haphazardly. > > http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0// > > Structural and semantic deficiencies in the systemd architecture for > real-world service management, a technical treatise > > > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 1:20 PM, <david.fl...@mchsi.com> wrote: > > > > I disagree. I thought Keith's comments were insightful and echo a lot of > my concerns and experiences with systemd. IMHO, distributions are far too > cavalier about introducing fundamental changes that end up breaking stuff. > > > > [top-posting against my better judgment] > > > > -- > > David Fleck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "benjamin barber" <starwor...@gmail.com> > > To: "Keith Lofstrom" <kei...@keithl.com>, "Portland Linux/Unix Group" < > plug@lists.pdxlinux.org> > > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 2:27:51 PM > > Subject: Re: [PLUG] systemd > > > > This is filled with platitudes, but doesn't address any of the > > substantitive questions. > > > > For example, is it wise to have an init system also control su as well as > > DHCPd. ? > > > > also, are we transitioning from gnu-linux to lennartix by ditching the > unix > > philosophy ? > > > > quite frankly this seems like the typical practice of embrace - extend - > > extinguish. > > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Keith Lofstrom <kei...@gate.kl-ic.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Like many recent linux changes, systemd solves a lot of problems > > > compared to the kluges that it replaces, but it was not deployed > > > with other people and existing infrastructure in mind. So, the > > > burden of adapting to such changes is foisted on the rest of us. > > > > > > While glittery shiny first impressions are nice, pain rules > > > our long term reaction to new things. A distro that is easy > > > 90% of the time and ridiculously difficult 10% of the time is > > > less likely to endure than something that is 30% easy and 1% > > > difficult. Change is never easy, and migration is difficult. > > > > > > For me, a computer is a structure that I embellish with my own > > > data, procedures, adaptions, and improvements. Changing the > > > structure means I must translate all of that, without help. > > > > > > It's like replacing the wooden beams of my house with carbon > > > fiber. That might help in an earthquake, but the cost of > > > the transition would be more devastating than an earthquake. > > > Instead, I added kludges and retrofits to achieve the same > > > earthquake protection. Build new houses with carbon fiber if > > > you wish, but don't abandon the installed base that is better > > > improved than replaced. If you must change house structure, > > > make your carbon fiber install cheap and painless. > > > > > > We invest in our computers, and change invalidates many of our > > > investments. If those who wish to impose these changes had > > > to pay the full cost of their decisions, and help us recoup > > > our lost investments, they would make different decisions, > > > and provide tools that facilitate change and adaption. > > > > > > This is an opportunity hiding in a problem, for sane profit- > > > seeking entrepreneurs (if there are any left in our community). > > > Focusing on the needs of humans, rather than the needs of the > > > machines. Modelling change against the entire installed base, > > > instead of a couple dozen configurations favored by developers. > > > > > > At a guess, linux designed for low cost mass deployment and long > > > term stability might make new development five times harder for > > > developers, almost cost-free for customers, and thus 100x cheaper > > > overall, assuming millions of customers willing to pay a little > > > something to avoid pain. For those of us ready to graduate from > > > "gratis" Linux to "least total cost" Linux, a new distro to fill > > > the role that Redhat used to fill (stodgy but predictable) would > > > be welcomed, and could be very profitable. > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > -- > > > Keith Lofstrom kei...@keithl.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > PLUG mailing list > > > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org > > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > _______________________________________________ > > PLUG mailing list > > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org > > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > _______________________________________________ > PLUG mailing list > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > _______________________________________________ PLUG mailing list PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
