The convention does not include the responders position as incorrect or illegal nor does US law, distasteful as it may be.
On 1/21/09, liberal mike532 ! <[email protected]> wrote: > > partially correct when you include the people killing those innocent > civilians you will be correct . > > On Jan 21, 8:20 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > No. they wrote the Geneva so that people using civilians as shields > > could be tried. > > > > On 1/21/09, liberal mike532 ! <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > very true which is why the people of the world got together and wrote > > > the Geneva convention so that things like what the Jews are doing in > > > Gaza don't happen . > > > > > On Jan 21, 5:00 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Like Americans killed off the buffalo to starve the Indians? Civilians > > > > caught in a war zone are sitting ducks. > > > > > > On Jan 21, 1:57 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > are you trying to say the UN has been attacking the Israelis ? > > > > > the jews attacked a UN hospital and shelter killing many of the > > > > > already wounded civilians . and Gaza is an ocupied teritory under > > > > > control of the jews . they have been stopping food and water as well > > > > > as medical supplys to the people who live there which is also a war > > > > > crime . > > > > > On Jan 20, 10:56 am, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Care to cite where it's stated in the Geneva Conventions? > > > > > > > > For example, consider the following; > > > > > > > > Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in > > > > > > Time > > > > > > of War. > > > > > > Art. 19. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled > > > > > > shall > > > > > > not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian > > > > > > duties, acts harmful to the enemy. > > > > > > > > Maybe I am interpreting it incorrectly but it sure seems like > > > > > > Article > > > > > > 19 is indicating that civilian hospitals are protected UNLESS they > > > > > > are > > > > > > used by the enemy to promote the fight, in which case you can then > > > > > > return fire. And clearly, if it's OK to fire on a hospital if the > > > > > > enemy is using it to promote the war, then firing on homes, schools > > > > > > or > > > > > > whatever else must also be OK when these same conditions exist. > > > > > > > > I readily admit I am no scholar of the Geneva Conventions so am open > > > > > > to other interpretations. > > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:15 am, "liberal mike532 !" <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > "…returning fire to an armed opponent using civilian shields is > > > > > > > NOT a > > > > > > > war crime." > > > > > > > that is indeed a war crime as stated in the Geneva convention > > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 3:58 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Wow, so now you've stooped to taking people out of context! > > > > > > > > > > What jgg said was; > > > > > > > > > > "…returning fire to an armed opponent using civilian shields is > > > > > > > > NOT a > > > > > > > > war crime." > > > > > > > > > > There's no disagreement that using civilian shields is a war > > > > > > > > crime. > > > > > > > > But that's not what jgg was talking about and you know it. What > > > > > > > > jgg > > > > > > > > was referring to was returning fire on an enemy who is using > > > > > > > > civilian > > > > > > > > shields, and that is not a war crime. > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2:21 pm, "liberal mike532 !" > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > " using civilian shields is NOT a war crime... " like > > > > > > > > > fucking hell > > > > > > > > > it isn't ! > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 9:27 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You seek to apply the Geneva Accords. Fine then you are > > > > > > > > > > bound by the > > > > > > > > > > standards they use -- that is returning fire to an armed > > > > > > > > > > opponent > > > > > > > > > > using civilian shields is NOT a war crime... It also > > > > > > > > > > includes > > > > > > > > > > storing weapons or ammunition or bases in civilian > > > > > > > > > > neighborhoods.. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 5:23 am, "liberal mike532 !" > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The War Crimes Act of 1996 was passed with overwhelming > > > > > > > > > > > majorities by > > > > > > > > > > > the United States Congress and signed into law by > > > > > > > > > > > President Bill > > > > > > > > > > > Clinton. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The law defines a war crime to include a "grave breach of > > > > > > > > > > > the Geneva > > > > > > > > > > > Conventions", specifically noting that "grave breach" > > > > > > > > > > > should have the > > > > > > > > > > > meaning defined in any convention (related to the laws of > > > > > > > > > > > war) to > > > > > > > > > > > which the U.S. is a party. The definition of "grave > > > > > > > > > > > breach" in some of > > > > > > > > > > > the Geneva Conventions have text that extend additional > > > > > > > > > > > protections, > > > > > > > > > > > but all the Conventions share the following text in > > > > > > > > > > > common: "... > > > > > > > > > > > committed against persons or property protected by the > > > > > > > > > > > Convention: > > > > > > > > > > > willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including > > > > > > > > > > > biological > > > > > > > > > > > experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious > > > > > > > > > > > injury to > > > > > > > > > > > body or health." > > > > > > > > > > > > > The law applies if either the victim or the perpetrator > > > > > > > > > > > is a national > > > > > > > > > > > of the United States or a member of the U.S. armed > > > > > > > > > > > forces. The penalty > > > > > > > > > > > may be life imprisonment or death. The death penalty is > > > > > > > > > > > only invoked > > > > > > > > > > > if the conduct resulted in the death of one or more > > > > > > > > > > > victims.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Crimes_Act_of_1996 > > > > > > > > > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Part II. General Protection of Populations Against > > > > > > > > > > > Certain > > > > > > > > > > > Consequences of War > > > > > > > > > > > Article 13. The provisions of Part II cover the whole of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > populations of the countries in conflict, without any > > > > > > > > > > > adverse > > > > > > > > > > > distinction based, in particular, on race, nationality, > > > > > > > > > > > religion or > > > > > > > > > > > political opinion, and are intended to alleviate the > > > > > > > > > > > sufferings caused > > > > > > > > > > > by war. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Part III. Status and Treatment of Protected Persons > > > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Section I. Provisions common to the territories of > > > > > > > > > > > the parties > > > > > > > > > > > to the conflict and to occupied territories > > > > > > > > > > > Article 32. A protected person/s shall not have anything > > > > > > > > > > > done to them > > > > > > > > > > > of such a character as to cause physical suffering or > > > > > > > > > > > extermination ... the physical suffering or extermination > > > > > > > > > > > of protected > > > > > > > > > > > persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only > > > > > > > > > > > to murder, > > > > > > > > > > > torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or > > > > > > > > > > > scientific > > > > > > > > > > > experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment' > > > > > > > > > > > While popular > > > > > > > > > > > debate remains on what constitutes a legal definition of > > > > > > > > > > > torture (see > > > > > > > > > > > discussion on the Torture page), the ban on corporal > > > > > > > > > > > punishment > > > > > > > > > > > simplifies the matter; even the most mundane physical > > > > > > > > > > > abuse is thereby > > > > > > > > > > > forbidden by Article 32, as a precaution against > > > > > > > > > > > alternate definitions > > > > > > > > > > > of torture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The prohibition on scientific experiments was added, in > > > > > > > > > > > part, in > > > > > > > > > > > response to experiments by German and Japanese doctors > > > > > > > > > > > during World > > > > > > > > > > > War II, of whom Josef Mengele was the most infamous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Collective punishments > > > > > > > > > > > Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an > > > > > > > > > > > offense he or > > > > > > > > > > > she has not personally committed. Collective penalties > > > > > > > > > > > and likewise > > > > > > > > > > > all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are > > > > > > > > > > > prohibited. > > > > > > > > > > > Pillage is prohibited. > > > > > > > > > > > Reprisals against protected persons and their property > > > > > > > > > > > are prohibited. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments > > > > > > > > > > > are a war > > > > > > > > > > > crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the > > > > > > > > > > > Geneva > > > > > > > > > > > Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World > > > > > > > > > > > Wars I and II. > > > > > > > > > > > In the First World War, Germans executed Belgian > > > > > > > > > > > villagers in mass > > > > > > > > > > > retribution for resistance activity. In World War II, > > > > > > > > > > > Nazis carried > > > > > > > > > > > out a form of collective punishment to suppress > > > > > > > > > > > resistance. Entire > > > > > > > > > > > villages or towns or districts were held responsible for > > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > resistance activity that took place there. The > > > > > > > > > > > conventions, to counter > > > > > > > > > > > this, reiterated the principle of individual > > > > > > > > > > > responsibility. The > > > > > > > > > > > International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) > > > > > > > > > > > Commentary to the > > > > > > > > > > > conventions states that parties to a conflict often would > > > > > > > > > > > resort to > > > > > > > > > > > "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in > > > > > > > > > > > hopes of > > > > > > > > > > > preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at > > > > > > > > > > > guilty and > > > > > > > > > > > innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based > > > > > > > > > > > on humanity > > > > > > > > > > > and justice." > > > > > > > > > > > > > Additional Protocol II of 1977 explicitly forbids > > > > > > > > > > > collective > > > > > > > > > > > punishment. But as fewer states have ratified this > > > > > > > > > > > protocol than GCIV, > > > > > > > > > > > GCIV Article 33. is the one more commonly quoted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Right of return > > > > > > > > > > > Article 49. The second paragraph of Article 49 provides > > > > > > > > > > > that persons > > > > > > > > > > > displaced during armed conflict must be transferred back > > > > > > > > > > > to their > > > > > > > > > > > homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have > > > > > > > > > > > ceased. This > > > > > > > > > > > right of displaced persons is often referred to as the > > > > > > > > > > > "right of > > > > > > > > > > > return" and has been reaffirmed in later international > > > > > > > > > > > treaties and > > > > > > > > > > > conventions. State Practice also establishes this rule as > > > > > > > > > > > a norm of > > > > > > > > > > > customary international law, according to the > > > > > > > > > > > International Committee > > > > > > > > > > > of the Red Cross. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [edit] Part IV. Execution of the Convention > > > > > > > > > > > This part contains "the formal or diplomatic provisions > > > > > > > > > > > which it is > > > > > > > > > > > customary to place at the end of an international > > > > > > > > > > > Convention to settle > > > > > > > > > > > the procedure for bringing it into effect > > > > ... > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- Mark M. 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