Mark, I honestly have no idea why you feel the mother has the right to determine when life exists. Life is not arbitrary and it's not at the discretion of the mother. At 28 weeks the fetus is considered viable. That means it can survive on it's own outside the womb. What evidence would you present to argue the fetus is not a living human at this point?
Mrs. Rabbit, I have no interest in telling a woman what to do with her body. I do, however, have an interest in protecting human life. These goals are not mutually exclusive. On Feb 18, 1:45 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > She is factually correct only if you believe in the premise.... which > I do not. An embryo is not human, a chicken is not a chicken until > hatched... ad nauseum. > > A Human embryo is not "life" unless the mother says so. Once it has > drawn breath it is a different story. > > > > On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:28 PM, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > As do I. But I don't believe you can support the rights of one human > > at the expense of another. Attempting to portray an unborn fetus as > > something less than human (i.e., a parasite) makes this debate easier, > > but it's scientifically incorrect. At 28 weeks the fetus is legally > > viable and must be considered a human being. Prior to 28 weeks the > > debate gets fuzzier, and since I support a policy of compromise, I > > tend to not argue that aspect of abortion. > > > The point of debate in this thread was the claim that the 12 year old > > girl was factually incorrect and I don't believe anyone has made that > > case yet. > > > On Feb 18, 12:11 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> No, I simply support the womans right over her body and all that is > >> contained there-in. I support the SAME for men. It is called fairness. > > >> On 2/18/09, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Thanks professor, but I'm quite familiar with what parasites are. I > >> > did not 'need' to look it up, but on this board it's usually helpful > >> > to provide a reference to support your claim. You might very well find > >> > a classification that can be applied to a human fetus, but let's be > >> > clear; a parasite is typically of a different species than its host, > >> > it usually can not survive without its host and it is typically > >> > harmful in some way to its host. There are exceptions to all of these > >> > characteristics, but when discussing parasites in animals these are > >> > the accepted norms. > > >> > A human fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks of development. > >> > It is parasitic in nature because it is sharing the mother's > >> > bloodstream for nutrition and oxygen. It does this because it has no > >> > other means to eat and breathe while constrained in the womb. It is, > >> > however, a living human being that can now survive on it's own outside > >> > the womb. > > >> > You know damn well that classifying a human fetus as a parasite is a > >> > deliberate attempt by the abortion rights crowd to diminish the value > >> > of the fetus. People don't take kindly to killing human beings, but > >> > eliminating parasites is always acceptable. > > >> > On Feb 18, 12:55 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > Use a biological dictionary. There are Three (3) very different types > >> > > of > >> > > parasites and several very different crosses of those three main > >> > > groups. You > >> > > have found the "common" definition. Do try to do some homework. It is > >> > > simple > >> > > junior high school biology. But then the US schools do lack, don't they > >> > > ?? Not my fault but definitely a problem for you, I can say that, as > >> > > you > >> > > obviously had to look it up and did not know enough to do so > >> > > correctly. In > >> > > the future if you are going to choose to argue a point at least please > >> > > be > >> > > rudimentarily informed on the subject or ask for assistance. > > >> > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:41 PM, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > From dictionary.com: "an organism that lives on or in an organism of > >> > > > another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains > >> > > > nutriment." > > >> > > > The mother does not define what a fetus is. Science defines what it > >> > > > is > >> > > > and it is parasitic, but not a parasite. > > >> > > > I don't need to consult the mother. It's 'definition' does not vary > >> > > > from mother to mother. She can apply whatever label she wants but it > >> > > > does not change the facts. > > >> > > > And I am not going any extra steps. I am sticking to the facts. If a > >> > > > 5 > >> > > > month old fetus is delivered you would call it a human. Therefore, > >> > > > unless you can prove physiological changes took place during delivery > >> > > > we must assume the 5 month old fetus still in the womb is human as > >> > > > well. The little girl is correct. > > >> > > > On Feb 17, 11:50 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > > No, it is the Mothers choice as to what it is. It is a parasite by > >> > > > > definition. At very best a "humanoid" parasite. > > >> > > > > As to implying a difference, I am not applying ANY definition other > >> > > > > than "parasite", "parasitic". It is you that is going the next step > >> > > > > without consulting the mother as to "its'" sattus. > > >> > > > > On Feb 17, 9:31 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > Mark, > > >> > > > > > I think it's more accurate to call a fetus parasitic. A parasite > >> > > > > > typically implies a different type of organism than the host it's > >> > > > > > feeding off of. Calling a fetus a parasite is a ploy used by > >> > > > > > abortion > >> > > > > > rights advocates as a means of diminishing the 'value' of the > >> > > > > > fetus. > >> > > > > > Make no mistake, a fetus IS a human. I think her example of a > >> > > > > > five > >> > > > > > month old fetus that is delivered is spot on. It did not undergo > >> > > > > > so > >> > > > > > magical transformation during its birth; it was human prior to > >> > > > > > deliver > >> > > > > > just as it is following delivery. > > >> > > > > > On Feb 17, 8:45 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > It is a parasite until the mother says otherwise. > > >> > > > > > > On Feb 17, 7:16 pm, Ohio mark <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > how so? > > >> > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 7:59 pm, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > I am sure the speech was magnificent; however, it isn't > >> > > > > > > > > entirely > >> > > > > > > > > factual. > > >> > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 3:07 pm, Ohio mark <[email protected]> > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > poor libs just cannot stands opposing points of view. > >> > > > > > > > > > even > >> > > > from a 12 > >> > > > > > > > > > yr old girl. how pitiful. > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 6:21 am, Ohio mark > >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Despite facing threats of disqualification, a > >> > > > > > > > > > > 12-year-old > >> > > > girl took > >> > > > > > > > > > > first place in a speech contest when she eloquently > >> > > > > > > > > > > argued > >> > > > for the > >> > > > > > > > > > > rights of unborn children – after an offended judge > >> > > > > > > > > > > quit. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "What if I told you that right now, someone was > >> > > > > > > > > > > choosing if > >> > > > you were > >> > > > > > > > > > > going to live or die?" the seventh-grader begins in a > >> > > > > > > > > > > video > >> > > > recording > >> > > > > > > > > > > of her speech on YouTube. "What if I told you that this > >> > > > choice wasn't > >> > > > > > > > > > > based on what you could or couldn't do, what you'd > >> > > > > > > > > > > done in > >> > > > the past or > >> > > > > > > > > > > what you would do in the future? And what if I told > >> > > > > > > > > > > you, you > >> > > > could do > >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing about it?" > > >> > > > > > > > > > > The girl, a student at a Toronto school identified > >> > > > > > > > > > > only as > >> > > > "Lia," > >> > > > > > > > > > > continued: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "Fellow students and teachers, thousands of children > >> > > > > > > > > > > are > >> > > > right now in > >> > > > > > > > > > > that very situation. Someone is choosing without even > >> > > > > > > > > > > knowing > >> > > > them > >> > > > > > > > > > > whether they are going to live or die. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "That someone is their mother. And that choice is > >> > > > > > > > > > > abortion." > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Despite Lia's enthusiasm for her topic, her teacher > >> > > > > > > > > > > "strongly > >> > > > > > > > > > > encouraged" her to select a different one for her class > >> > > > presentation > >> > > > > > > > > > > or she would be considered ineligible for an upcoming > >> > > > > > > > > > > speech > >> > > > contest. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "[S]everal teachers discouraged her from picking the > >> > > > > > > > > > > topic of > >> > > > > > > > > > > abortion; she was told it was 'too big,' 'too mature' > >> > > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > 'too > >> > > > > > > > > > > controversial,'" her mother wrote. "She was also told > >> > > > > > > > > > > that if > >> > > > she went > >> > > > > > > > > > > ahead with that topic, she would not be allowed to > >> > > > > > > > > > > continue > >> > > > on in the > >> > > > > > > > > > > speech competition." > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's mother continued, "Initially, I tried helping > >> > > > > > > > > > > her find > >> > > > other > >> > > > > > > > > > > topics to speak on, but, in the end, she was adamant. > >> > > > > > > > > > > She > >> > > > just felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > she wanted to continue with the topic of abortion. So > >> > > > > > > > > > > she > >> > > > forfeited > >> > > > > > > > > > > her chance to compete in order to speak on something > >> > > > > > > > > > > she was > >> > > > > > > > > > > passionate about." > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's teacher was so impressed by the speech that she > >> > > > > > > > > > > allowed > >> > > > her > >> > > > > > > > > > > student to advance as the winner. Lia presented her > >> > > > > > > > > > > speech to > >> > > > judges > >> > > > > > > > > > > in front of her entire school on Feb. 10. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > The school principal and teachers called Lia's > >> > > > > > > > > > > presentation > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > "obvious winner" – but the judges suddenly > >> > > > > > > > > > > disqualified her > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > following day "because of the topic and her position on > >> > > > abortion," her > >> > > > > > > > > > > mother said. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's father later revealed that the judges had a "big > >> > > > disagreement." > >> > > > > > > > > > > One was offended by the speech and voluntarily stepped > >> > > > > > > > > > > down > >> > > > while the > >> > > > > > > > > > > others reversed their earlier decision – declaring her > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > winner. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Now Lia plans to take her message of life to a regional > >> > > > speech > >> > > > > > > > > > > competition, and more than 100,000 visitors have > >> > > > > > > > > > > viewed her > >> > > > > > > > > > > presentation online. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "Why do we think that just because a > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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