Your key word there is "considered".... some live some don't. You do indeed wish to tell the woman that at 28 weeks she has no decision in the matter. I simply say that until that embryo takes its first breath all the "rights" are the mothers.
On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:51 PM, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mark, > I honestly have no idea why you feel the mother has the right to > determine when life exists. Life is not arbitrary and it's not at the > discretion of the mother. At 28 weeks the fetus is considered viable. > That means it can survive on it's own outside the womb. What evidence > would you present to argue the fetus is not a living human at this > point? > > Mrs. Rabbit, > I have no interest in telling a woman what to do with her body. I do, > however, have an interest in protecting human life. These goals are > not mutually exclusive. > > On Feb 18, 1:45 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: >> She is factually correct only if you believe in the premise.... which >> I do not. An embryo is not human, a chicken is not a chicken until >> hatched... ad nauseum. >> >> A Human embryo is not "life" unless the mother says so. Once it has >> drawn breath it is a different story. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:28 PM, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > As do I. But I don't believe you can support the rights of one human >> > at the expense of another. Attempting to portray an unborn fetus as >> > something less than human (i.e., a parasite) makes this debate easier, >> > but it's scientifically incorrect. At 28 weeks the fetus is legally >> > viable and must be considered a human being. Prior to 28 weeks the >> > debate gets fuzzier, and since I support a policy of compromise, I >> > tend to not argue that aspect of abortion. >> >> > The point of debate in this thread was the claim that the 12 year old >> > girl was factually incorrect and I don't believe anyone has made that >> > case yet. >> >> > On Feb 18, 12:11 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> No, I simply support the womans right over her body and all that is >> >> contained there-in. I support the SAME for men. It is called fairness. >> >> >> On 2/18/09, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > Thanks professor, but I'm quite familiar with what parasites are. I >> >> > did not 'need' to look it up, but on this board it's usually helpful >> >> > to provide a reference to support your claim. You might very well find >> >> > a classification that can be applied to a human fetus, but let's be >> >> > clear; a parasite is typically of a different species than its host, >> >> > it usually can not survive without its host and it is typically >> >> > harmful in some way to its host. There are exceptions to all of these >> >> > characteristics, but when discussing parasites in animals these are >> >> > the accepted norms. >> >> >> > A human fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks of development. >> >> > It is parasitic in nature because it is sharing the mother's >> >> > bloodstream for nutrition and oxygen. It does this because it has no >> >> > other means to eat and breathe while constrained in the womb. It is, >> >> > however, a living human being that can now survive on it's own outside >> >> > the womb. >> >> >> > You know damn well that classifying a human fetus as a parasite is a >> >> > deliberate attempt by the abortion rights crowd to diminish the value >> >> > of the fetus. People don't take kindly to killing human beings, but >> >> > eliminating parasites is always acceptable. >> >> >> > On Feb 18, 12:55 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > Use a biological dictionary. There are Three (3) very different >> >> > > types of >> >> > > parasites and several very different crosses of those three main >> >> > > groups. You >> >> > > have found the "common" definition. Do try to do some homework. It is >> >> > > simple >> >> > > junior high school biology. But then the US schools do lack, don't >> >> > > they >> >> > > ?? Not my fault but definitely a problem for you, I can say that, as >> >> > > you >> >> > > obviously had to look it up and did not know enough to do so >> >> > > correctly. In >> >> > > the future if you are going to choose to argue a point at least >> >> > > please be >> >> > > rudimentarily informed on the subject or ask for assistance. >> >> >> > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:41 PM, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > From dictionary.com: "an organism that lives on or in an organism of >> >> > > > another species, known as the host, from the body of which it >> >> > > > obtains >> >> > > > nutriment." >> >> >> > > > The mother does not define what a fetus is. Science defines what it >> >> > > > is >> >> > > > and it is parasitic, but not a parasite. >> >> >> > > > I don't need to consult the mother. It's 'definition' does not vary >> >> > > > from mother to mother. She can apply whatever label she wants but it >> >> > > > does not change the facts. >> >> >> > > > And I am not going any extra steps. I am sticking to the facts. If >> >> > > > a 5 >> >> > > > month old fetus is delivered you would call it a human. Therefore, >> >> > > > unless you can prove physiological changes took place during >> >> > > > delivery >> >> > > > we must assume the 5 month old fetus still in the womb is human as >> >> > > > well. The little girl is correct. >> >> >> > > > On Feb 17, 11:50 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > No, it is the Mothers choice as to what it is. It is a parasite by >> >> > > > > definition. At very best a "humanoid" parasite. >> >> >> > > > > As to implying a difference, I am not applying ANY definition >> >> > > > > other >> >> > > > > than "parasite", "parasitic". It is you that is going the next >> >> > > > > step >> >> > > > > without consulting the mother as to "its'" sattus. >> >> >> > > > > On Feb 17, 9:31 pm, frankg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > Mark, >> >> >> > > > > > I think it's more accurate to call a fetus parasitic. A parasite >> >> > > > > > typically implies a different type of organism than the host >> >> > > > > > it's >> >> > > > > > feeding off of. Calling a fetus a parasite is a ploy used by >> >> > > > > > abortion >> >> > > > > > rights advocates as a means of diminishing the 'value' of the >> >> > > > > > fetus. >> >> > > > > > Make no mistake, a fetus IS a human. I think her example of a >> >> > > > > > five >> >> > > > > > month old fetus that is delivered is spot on. It did not >> >> > > > > > undergo so >> >> > > > > > magical transformation during its birth; it was human prior to >> >> > > > > > deliver >> >> > > > > > just as it is following delivery. >> >> >> > > > > > On Feb 17, 8:45 pm, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> >> >> > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > It is a parasite until the mother says otherwise. >> >> >> > > > > > > On Feb 17, 7:16 pm, Ohio mark <[email protected]> >> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > how so? >> >> >> > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 7:59 pm, "J.C." <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > > I am sure the speech was magnificent; however, it isn't >> >> > > > > > > > > entirely >> >> > > > > > > > > factual. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 3:07 pm, Ohio mark >> >> > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> >> >> > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > poor libs just cannot stands opposing points of view. >> >> > > > > > > > > > even >> >> > > > from a 12 >> >> > > > > > > > > > yr old girl. how pitiful. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > On Feb 17, 6:21 am, Ohio mark >> >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> >> >> > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Despite facing threats of disqualification, a >> >> > > > > > > > > > > 12-year-old >> >> > > > girl took >> >> > > > > > > > > > > first place in a speech contest when she eloquently >> >> > > > > > > > > > > argued >> >> > > > for the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > rights of unborn children โ after an offended judge >> >> > > > > > > > > > > quit. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "What if I told you that right now, someone was >> >> > > > > > > > > > > choosing if >> >> > > > you were >> >> > > > > > > > > > > going to live or die?" the seventh-grader begins in a >> >> > > > > > > > > > > video >> >> > > > recording >> >> > > > > > > > > > > of her speech on YouTube. "What if I told you that >> >> > > > > > > > > > > this >> >> > > > choice wasn't >> >> > > > > > > > > > > based on what you could or couldn't do, what you'd >> >> > > > > > > > > > > done in >> >> > > > the past or >> >> > > > > > > > > > > what you would do in the future? And what if I told >> >> > > > > > > > > > > you, you >> >> > > > could do >> >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing about it?" >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > The girl, a student at a Toronto school identified >> >> > > > > > > > > > > only as >> >> > > > "Lia," >> >> > > > > > > > > > > continued: >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "Fellow students and teachers, thousands of children >> >> > > > > > > > > > > are >> >> > > > right now in >> >> > > > > > > > > > > that very situation. Someone is choosing without even >> >> > > > > > > > > > > knowing >> >> > > > them >> >> > > > > > > > > > > whether they are going to live or die. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "That someone is their mother. And that choice is >> >> > > > > > > > > > > abortion." >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Despite Lia's enthusiasm for her topic, her teacher >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "strongly >> >> > > > > > > > > > > encouraged" her to select a different one for her >> >> > > > > > > > > > > class >> >> > > > presentation >> >> > > > > > > > > > > or she would be considered ineligible for an upcoming >> >> > > > > > > > > > > speech >> >> > > > contest. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "[S]everal teachers discouraged her from picking the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > topic of >> >> > > > > > > > > > > abortion; she was told it was 'too big,' 'too mature' >> >> > > > > > > > > > > and >> >> > > > 'too >> >> > > > > > > > > > > controversial,'" her mother wrote. "She was also told >> >> > > > > > > > > > > that if >> >> > > > she went >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ahead with that topic, she would not be allowed to >> >> > > > > > > > > > > continue >> >> > > > on in the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > speech competition." >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's mother continued, "Initially, I tried helping >> >> > > > > > > > > > > her find >> >> > > > other >> >> > > > > > > > > > > topics to speak on, but, in the end, she was adamant. >> >> > > > > > > > > > > She >> >> > > > just felt >> >> > > > > > > > > > > she wanted to continue with the topic of abortion. So >> >> > > > > > > > > > > she >> >> > > > forfeited >> >> > > > > > > > > > > her chance to compete in order to speak on something >> >> > > > > > > > > > > she was >> >> > > > > > > > > > > passionate about." >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's teacher was so impressed by the speech that she >> >> > > > > > > > > > > allowed >> >> > > > her >> >> > > > > > > > > > > student to advance as the winner. Lia presented her >> >> > > > > > > > > > > speech to >> >> > > > judges >> >> > > > > > > > > > > in front of her entire school on Feb. 10. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > The school principal and teachers called Lia's >> >> > > > > > > > > > > presentation >> >> > > > the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "obvious winner" โ but the judges suddenly >> >> > > > > > > > > > > disqualified her >> >> > > > the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > following day "because of the topic and her position >> >> > > > > > > > > > > on >> >> > > > abortion," her >> >> > > > > > > > > > > mother said. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Lia's father later revealed that the judges had a "big >> >> > > > disagreement." >> >> > > > > > > > > > > One was offended by the speech and voluntarily >> >> > > > > > > > > > > stepped down >> >> > > > while the >> >> > > > > > > > > > > others reversed their earlier decision โ declaring >> >> > > > > > > > > > > her the >> >> > > > winner. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Now Lia plans to take her message of life to a >> >> > > > > > > > > > > regional >> >> > > > speech >> >> > > > > > > > > > > competition, and more than 100,000 visitors have >> >> > > > > > > > > > > viewed her >> >> > > > > > > > > > > presentation online. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "Why do we think that just because a >> >> ... >> >> read more ยป- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > -- Mark M. 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