Keith, We are not actually that far apart in our ways of thought,, though we do have different views. I would like to continue tis conversation with you, IMO there is great merit in doing so. I will not be responding to any other posts on this thread that do not address the ideals that we are discussing. We got screwed on another thread by people inserting "patriotic" kneejerk into the conversation.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]>wrote: > Mark, > > I am only replying to this message, (right now) the other messages require > more detailed explanation and response. > > I don't use the United States Constitution for any other purpose, than to > express and demonstrate what our elected leaders have an obligation to do, > as they swore to uphold the U.S. Constitution. To have done any differently > than what we have seen, as per the wrongfully released and poltically > motivated release of the recent CIA Memoranda has demonstrated and attested > to, would have been unconstitutional, period. > > Mark, you and others keep forgetting that we were (and are) at war with a > group of individuals who claim no sovereign Nation-State. By yours and > others standards, (as I pointed out in another thread) President Truman > could not have given orders to have dropped the bomb on Nagasaki or > Hiroshima, which clearly saved American lives. > > In general, I don't think that we are in violation of these Geneva Accord > tenets. It is ridiculous to try and bring up conventions that we are not a > signatory to, like the 1998 Rome Treaty, which both the Clinton White House > and the Republican controlled Congress were opposed to. > > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:36 AM, THE ANNOINTED ONE > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> >> Keith, >> >> The US Constitution does NOT extend beyond US soil. Please don't try >> to use it on foreign soil, they have their own LEGAL document there. >> >> On Apr 24, 9:26 am, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Good Morning Mark! >> > >> > You just answered your own question. >> > >> > The twenty eight detainees were not prisoners of war, in the sense of a >> foot >> > soldier, as the clause you are referencing is referring to. These >> > individuals where enhanced interrogation tactics were utilized, (and no, >> I >> > do not believe that the enhanced interrogation tactics resulted in >> torture, >> > I don't think anyone in good conscience can believe that if they read >> the >> > Memoranda) were homicidal murderers intent on killing Americans. >> > >> > Further, out of the over nine hundred that were captured and detained, >> based >> > on the information that has been released to date, only 28 of them were >> > exposed to any coercive interrogation tactics in order to obtain >> > information. The remaining nine hundred plus, were treated no >> differently >> > than any other American prisoner in the federal Bureau of Prisons' >> system, >> > as can be witnessed at both Baghdad Central Prison and Guantanamo. >> > >> > Folks keep forgetting the era also. At the time that these enhanced >> > interrogation tactics were being utilized, on the twenty eight that are >> > being referenced, our intelligence departments literally did not know >> who, >> > or what we were dealing with, and especially where or when the next wave >> of >> > attacks were coming. All Americans were fearful of dirty bombs, >> chemical >> > attacks, or planes being flown into our skyscrapers. It wasn't a >> question >> > of "if" but a question of "when". Our federal government by the >> mandate of >> > the United States Constitution, has a duty to "insure domestic >> tranquilty, >> > provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare..." >> > >> > Had the Bush Administration failed to have done as much as they did, we >> very >> > well might not be having this converstaion right now. >> > >> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:40 AM, THE ANNOINTED ONE < >> [email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Keith, >> > >> > > How is this for Myth ?? >> > >> > > QUOTE<<<<No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of >> > > coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them >> > > information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to >> > > answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant >> > > or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.>>>>>UNQUOTE Part III : >> > > Captivity #Section I : Beginning of captivity ARTICLE 17 >> > >> > > Now we are back to discussing the POW definition. The law is VERY >> > > specific. NEXT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> > >> > > On Apr 23, 8:20 pm, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > Waterboarding as it was applied to THE THREE HOMICIDAL MURDERERS >> THAT >> > > WERE >> > > > ATTEMPTING TO KILL YOU was not specifically against any >> international law >> > > or >> > > > treatise that the United States was a signatory. >> > >> > > > Waterboarding as we applied it, was not torture! >> > >> > > > MoonbatMyths!!!! >> > >> > > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:26 PM, studio <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > On Apr 22, 10:21 pm, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > > > > I think a better way of framing your question Studio, is, "That >> if >> > > the >> > > > > > enhanced interrogation technique of waterboarding is 'torture', >> then >> > > how >> > > > > > does one survive the procedure after 183 times?" >> > >> > > > > I don't know, let's try it on you to make sure. >> > >> > > > > The fact is the US was a International signatory against torture, >> > > > > which also >> > > > > includes water boarding. >> > > > > It was and is against the law, period. >> > >> > > > > It's really nice how you conservative moralists love telling >> everyone >> > > > > how >> > > > > moral and effective torture is. >> > >> > > > > INTERROGATOR: >> > > > > Have you been ripping the American people off for the last eight >> > > > > years? >> > >> > > > > BUSH - CHENEY: >> > > > > No, we were protecting... >> > >> > > > > INTERROGATOR: >> > > > > Fill 'em up boys, they'll tell us what we want to hear even if it >> > > > > takes 183 times.- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > - Show quoted text - >> >> >> -- Mark M. 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