Very true... My point is the real reason often dictates what happens after the fact... Hence after WWI we did the Marshall Plan and the Russians did satellite states...
In much of the opposition to the US in Iraq, one claim was American Imperialism and lust after oil --- ie we wanted to steal Iraqi oil... Clearly this is not going to be a result PRINCIPALLY due to that was never an aim... Yet the fear-mongering was 24/7 by the Left... On May 22, 1:25 pm, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > jgg, > > Your simply impossible. The WHY is determined by what the individual > country thinks is in it's best interests at any given time. That's > what I've been saying all along. > There are almost always TWO reasons for what a country does. The REAL > reason and thwe reason given to the public in order to gain their > support or at least nullify resistence/opposition. > > On May 22, 11:36 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Once again > > > At the end of the day WHY a great power acts matters at times... It > > helps to determine WHAT they do AFTER the deed... Hence The > > Marshall plan post WWII verses European Retributions demanded from > > Germany post WWI... Or Russia after WWII... > > > On May 22, 11:31 am, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > jgg, > > > > SO? I'll ask you again, what is the point you are trying to make? > > > > On May 22, 10:15 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > You forget Pakistani ISI... > > > > > On May 21, 5:41 pm, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > So? The Russians invaded Afghanistan at one point, we did at another > > > > > point and AQ did at yet another. What's your point here? And yes, all > > > > > parties had their own resons for doing so. > > > > > > On May 21, 11:55 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Techinically, AQ invaded Iraq and Afghanistan... Unless you buy > > > > > > into > > > > > > the notion that their universial world governemnt self proclaimed by > > > > > > definition makes that impossible... > > > > > > > On May 21, 11:35 am, Hollywood <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > Uh yeah, they changed from killing Russians invading their land to > > > > > > > killing Americans & Brits invading their land. Thought I had > > > > > > > explained > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > On May 21, 9:54 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Or maybe it depends on the circumstance... Like how OBL and AQ > > > > > > > > changed over the years... Another example is supporting > > > > > > > > Stalin in > > > > > > > > 1942-45 and fighting him from 1948-1953... Why the change??? > > > > > > > > Simple > > > > > > > > Stalin's actions post WWII... > > > > > > > > > On May 21, 10:26 am, Hollywood <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > WHAT arguement of "because we helped S.H. we are responsible > > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > end result?" Look at my posts, what I ACTUALLY said. Where > > > > > > > > > did I say > > > > > > > > > any such thing? > > > > > > > > > OF course our political policy is based on what is convient > > > > > > > > > for us at > > > > > > > > > the moment. One decade Osama Bin Laden is a "deeply religious > > > > > > > > > freedom > > > > > > > > > fighter" another decade the same man is a "murdering Muslim > > > > > > > > > terrorist". All depends on wheter he's killing Russians or > > > > > > > > > Brits and > > > > > > > > > Americans. Duuuuuuh. > > > > > > > > > > On May 20, 10:31 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Another of your straw-men Hollywood... Especially as I > > > > > > > > > > never have > > > > > > > > > > been of the attitude ""your either for us or against us"... > > > > > > > > > > Neither > > > > > > > > > > was Bush for that matter... Now the LW anti-war fringe WAS > > > > > > > > > > and IS... > > > > > > > > > > Hence Pelosi's new dance step... > > > > > > > > > > > Now my point with Russia IS and was, geopolitical alliance > > > > > > > > > > normally > > > > > > > > > > are temporary based on convenience... As was our help to > > > > > > > > > > Saddam, > > > > > > > > > > our interest was not to let either Iraq nor Iran win... > > > > > > > > > > And that > > > > > > > > > > policy drove our actions... Second, the arms we supplied > > > > > > > > > > helped us > > > > > > > > > > and the Russians defeat Hitler --- the question here is > > > > > > > > > > the refusal > > > > > > > > > > of Russia to WITHDRAWAL to its pre war borders WAS a > > > > > > > > > > consequence of > > > > > > > > > > that win... This included incorporating the Baltic and > > > > > > > > > > much of Poland > > > > > > > > > > into USSR... > > > > > > > > > > > ANd the argument used with with Saddam is BECAUSE we > > > > > > > > > > helped him, WE > > > > > > > > > > are responsible for the end result... Applying that > > > > > > > > > > logic to WWII, > > > > > > > > > > we were responsible for 40 years of repression in Eastern > > > > > > > > > > Europe... > > > > > > > > > > Now I reject that line of reasoning in the cases of Russia > > > > > > > > > > during WWI > > > > > > > > > > and Saddam post 1987... The issue here do you also reject > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > reasoning??? If so the issue of our limited help to Saddam > > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > 80's is a none issue... If you accept that logic, then you > > > > > > > > > > logically > > > > > > > > > > must hold we are guilty of repressing Eastern Europe for 40 > > > > > > > > > > years... > > > > > > > > > > > On May 20, 10:16 am, Hollywood > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > NOW you want to resign the black/white world of "your > > > > > > > > > > > either for us or > > > > > > > > > > > against us" George Bush? > > > > > > > > > > > OH, we didn't want Russia it win against Germany, we only > > > > > > > > > > > wanted to > > > > > > > > > > > help them avoid defeat? When Russian tanks were rumbling > > > > > > > > > > > thru the > > > > > > > > > > > street of Berlin, hundreds of miles west of their > > > > > > > > > > > borders, we were > > > > > > > > > > > merely helping them avoid defeat and destruction? Read a > > > > > > > > > > > history book, > > > > > > > > > > > Russia help US to avoid defeat in Europe. > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 20, 8:55 am, jgg1000a <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Hollywood, in the grown-up game of geopolitics that > > > > > > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > > > significant difference... In your Ivory Tower of > > > > > > > > > > > > perfection, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideology must remain pure by using only "moral" > > > > > > > > > > > > methods... In WWII, > > > > > > > > > > > > we allied with a Totalitarian tyrant not quite as > > > > > > > > > > > > dangerous as Hitler, > > > > > > > > > > > > Stalin, to beat Hitler... We supplied him arms so he > > > > > > > > > > > > would not be > > > > > > > > > > > > defeated... > > > > > > > > > > > > > And Stalin used them to take over Eastern Europe after > > > > > > > > > > > > the war... By > > > > > > > > > > > > your standards, we are responsible for Stalin post war, > > > > > > > > > > > > even though he > > > > > > > > > > > > stopped being an ally in 1945... Problem is, that is > > > > > > > > > > > > not how the > > > > > > > > > > > > world works... > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 7:31 pm, Hollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ohhh, we were not helping him to WIN, we were merely > > > > > > > > > > > > > helping him to > > > > > > > > > > > > > avoid DEFEAT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, that makes all the difference in the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 3:33 pm, jgg1000a <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our support to SH in the 80's was limited to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proventing his defeat by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iran. 95%+ of SH weapons came from the USSR or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its satellites... A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > majority of the rest came from France and Germany... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 3:35 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a way, it was, for our support of SH during > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Iraq-Iran war. We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tend to eliminate those who illustrate our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > political conscience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Panama. Cuba. El Salvador. USSR. etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 1:35 pm, Hollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, S.H's Iraq was NOT an immediate and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dangerous threat that needed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to be removed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 19, 12:56 pm, jgg1000a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, the Iraqi War was NOT principally > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about WMD (using your non > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UNSC definition)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 5:52 am, VT VirtualTruth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You really don;t read or pay attention to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the news do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You fools said the same things about WMD's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that mistake only cost 4000 US lives and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maimed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only 30,000. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When Republicans make mistakes Americans > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good track record you got going there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 17, 10:17 am, Keith In Tampa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, this is really what it boils down to, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as I suspicioned. What you are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really saying is, "I Hate Bush, But I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't Know Why". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What transpired at Abu Gharib is not at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all what transpired with enhanced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > interrogation techniques by the CIA. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Army has no mechanism other than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Army Field Manual to interrogate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > prisoners. Those individuals were > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > prosecuted because they were outside of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Army regulations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 3:26 AM, VT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > VirtualTruth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we tried the little guys for what > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > happened at Abu Gharib > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then the precedent has already been set > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for the ENTIRE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bush Administration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe Nixon was also Impeached for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > his crimes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during the Vietnam war. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nixon resigned rather than face > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > impeachment for his crimes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while in office, and Republicans pushed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all out to impeach > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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