On Aug 24, 2:38 am, Iain Duncan <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-08-23 at 15:29 -0700, Jamie wrote:
> > You all might as well be arguing which is the superior OS. It doesn't
> > matter.
>
> > Apple's OS's arguably have been superior to anything MS has ever put
> > out. Back in the day, for a very brief period, Apple was the dominate
> > player because first they shipped with BASIC preinstalled in ROM.
> > They maintained momentum because everyone was writing educational
> > software for the platform. MS zoomed past Apple once the PC became
> > more integral to daily life and "productivity" software became more
> > important. Now, Apple is starting to turn things around because their
> > Internet-centric and music stuff "just works".
>
> > The point is that everything is about the applications. People don't
> > care about which is coded to a higher standard, is more secure, has
> > better documentation, or slicker produced marketing campaign. They
> > buy a particular PC (or use a particular framework) because it allows
> > them to do something that the others don't.
>
> > If you want Pylons adoption to take off, a subset of the people
> > treading this thread ought to pool their efforts and develop a killer
> > Pylons-based application. Maybe target phpBB, or produce an awesome
> > wiki package or bug tracker. Or even better: an open-source e-
> > commerce platform (every single one out there sucks). Give them a
> > reason to abandon PHP, not just platitudes. When you've got a 100,000
> > people using a Pylons-based app, interest in Pylons itself will
> > naturally follow.
>
> Sorry, I totally disagree. The above may be true for Django, or for the
> average person purchasing a Mac, but it is expressly *not true* for
> Pylons. The Pylons target user is *not* someone looking for
> plug-and-play. You may be, that's fine, but if so, you are probably
> looking in the wrong place ( Django or Rails would be much better for
> that ).
>
> There is a market niche for people who looking precisely for "coded to a
> higher standard, is more secure, has better documentation". That niche
> does care about the very carefully made design decisions behind Pylons,
> and those are the people for whom Pylons is a good fit. Also, that niche
> cares a heck of a lot less about some killer app because they are
> looking for a foundation to write their own killer apps, not something
> to just use.
>
> Trying to market Pylons to people impressed by plug-and-play drop in
> apps is IMHO a waste of time and will backfire, because you are then
> selling people the wrong product. Never a good idea for any marketing
> campaign. You must know your competitive differentiation, your value
> proposition, and your ideal customer to market effectively, and you must
> targeting the right people with the right benefits.
>
> The main problem for Pylons marketing as I see it, is that the core
> developers don't seem to be concerned about it, so no one will put in
> time and effort to do something that is not wanted and appreciated and
> stand a good chance of being used. I have already railed against that in
> previous threads. I would love to see that change though, so I'm sure
> the discussion is still productive.
>
> Iain
>
I've been a web developer for a long time. I started with MS tech in
the mid 1990's and now use OSS almost exclusively. Probably 90% of my
day is spent coding in PHP and I absolutely loathe it. Time and time
again, I've tried to convince either management or a client to give
Pylons a shot. But they perceive it as too great of risk because:
They've never heard of it, almost no one is using it (based on their
brief research), and it's impossible to find anyone else to maintain a
Pylons app. So I'm stuck using PHP even though I'm a capable
developer who's aware there's clearly a better tool out there. I'm
already sold.
You're selling to the wrong people, man. Management and the wider
developer community has to buy into Pylons before it gets significant
traction. Me, you, and the rest of the people reading this thread are
in the minority--the early adopters. Most developers prefer to follow
hoard because it's easier. Management follows the hoard because it's
less risky. Find a way to wow the hoard with results (rather than the
pedantic "Pylons is better because...") and the project will get
noticed.
I understand the danger in trying to be all things to all people (it's
one the key reasons PHP is such a turd). But you have to seek a
balance. Telling people to simply go use RoR or Django doesn't help
your cause.
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