Being a recent Pylons convert I can lend my experience as an example of what perceptions may be out there about Pylons.
When I was doing my research on what framework to work with, the most consistent negative that I read about Pylons was a lack of documentation. However, I found 'The Definitive Guide to Pylons' and the QuickWiki Tutorial more than sufficient to get up and running quickly. Where things fall down is trying to get a more in-depth understanding of the various components like AuthKit. Unfortunately, this is a reality of having a framework that is really just a collection of best practice, third-party components. I have found it somewhat frustrating when trying to raise a defect against a particular component. You can't raise the issue to Pylons because you will just be told it isn't really Pylons code. But what happens if the component project in question is very unresponsive to emails and doesn't provide any place to raise issues? Pylons as a whole takes a hit for the lack of support offered in a sub-component. Another issue that some people raise about Pylons is the lack of consistency from component to component. It is obvious that Pylons is a collection of components rather than a monolithically designed framework. This can be both an attractor and a detractor for developers. For me, I would prefer to work with a framework where the patterns were consistent across the entire framework but in the end I chose Pylons over Django for its flexibility within those components. I really do believe Django and Pylons serve different audiences. Although I believe Pylons would be well served by better marketing, maybe mass market is inconsistent with where Pylons serves best. Cheers 2009/8/24 Didip Kerabat <[email protected]> > IMO, > > There is nothing about Pylons that makes it hard to get up-to-speed > quickly. > > From personal experiences (I've migrated from web.py to Pylons, and I've > started pylons project from scratch), Pylons is easy to get to along with. > > We should try to change this perception about Pylons. Maybe people can > share their difficult experiences in getting started with Pylons? > > I think Pylons can still be easy to use and customizable. > > PS: Also, if management wants some assurances, how about Reddit as example? > > - Didip - > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Jamie <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Aug 24, 2:38 am, Iain Duncan <[email protected]> wrote: >> > On Sun, 2009-08-23 at 15:29 -0700, Jamie wrote: >> > > You all might as well be arguing which is the superior OS. It doesn't >> > > matter. >> > >> > > Apple's OS's arguably have been superior to anything MS has ever put >> > > out. Back in the day, for a very brief period, Apple was the dominate >> > > player because first they shipped with BASIC preinstalled in ROM. >> > > They maintained momentum because everyone was writing educational >> > > software for the platform. MS zoomed past Apple once the PC became >> > > more integral to daily life and "productivity" software became more >> > > important. Now, Apple is starting to turn things around because their >> > > Internet-centric and music stuff "just works". >> > >> > > The point is that everything is about the applications. People don't >> > > care about which is coded to a higher standard, is more secure, has >> > > better documentation, or slicker produced marketing campaign. They >> > > buy a particular PC (or use a particular framework) because it allows >> > > them to do something that the others don't. >> > >> > > If you want Pylons adoption to take off, a subset of the people >> > > treading this thread ought to pool their efforts and develop a killer >> > > Pylons-based application. Maybe target phpBB, or produce an awesome >> > > wiki package or bug tracker. Or even better: an open-source e- >> > > commerce platform (every single one out there sucks). Give them a >> > > reason to abandon PHP, not just platitudes. When you've got a 100,000 >> > > people using a Pylons-based app, interest in Pylons itself will >> > > naturally follow. >> > >> > Sorry, I totally disagree. The above may be true for Django, or for the >> > average person purchasing a Mac, but it is expressly *not true* for >> > Pylons. The Pylons target user is *not* someone looking for >> > plug-and-play. You may be, that's fine, but if so, you are probably >> > looking in the wrong place ( Django or Rails would be much better for >> > that ). >> > >> > There is a market niche for people who looking precisely for "coded to a >> > higher standard, is more secure, has better documentation". That niche >> > does care about the very carefully made design decisions behind Pylons, >> > and those are the people for whom Pylons is a good fit. Also, that niche >> > cares a heck of a lot less about some killer app because they are >> > looking for a foundation to write their own killer apps, not something >> > to just use. >> > >> > Trying to market Pylons to people impressed by plug-and-play drop in >> > apps is IMHO a waste of time and will backfire, because you are then >> > selling people the wrong product. Never a good idea for any marketing >> > campaign. You must know your competitive differentiation, your value >> > proposition, and your ideal customer to market effectively, and you must >> > targeting the right people with the right benefits. >> > >> > The main problem for Pylons marketing as I see it, is that the core >> > developers don't seem to be concerned about it, so no one will put in >> > time and effort to do something that is not wanted and appreciated and >> > stand a good chance of being used. I have already railed against that in >> > previous threads. I would love to see that change though, so I'm sure >> > the discussion is still productive. >> > >> > Iain >> > >> >> I've been a web developer for a long time. I started with MS tech in >> the mid 1990's and now use OSS almost exclusively. Probably 90% of my >> day is spent coding in PHP and I absolutely loathe it. Time and time >> again, I've tried to convince either management or a client to give >> Pylons a shot. But they perceive it as too great of risk because: >> They've never heard of it, almost no one is using it (based on their >> brief research), and it's impossible to find anyone else to maintain a >> Pylons app. So I'm stuck using PHP even though I'm a capable >> developer who's aware there's clearly a better tool out there. I'm >> already sold. >> >> You're selling to the wrong people, man. Management and the wider >> developer community has to buy into Pylons before it gets significant >> traction. Me, you, and the rest of the people reading this thread are >> in the minority--the early adopters. Most developers prefer to follow >> hoard because it's easier. Management follows the hoard because it's >> less risky. Find a way to wow the hoard with results (rather than the >> pedantic "Pylons is better because...") and the project will get >> noticed. >> >> I understand the danger in trying to be all things to all people (it's >> one the key reasons PHP is such a turd). But you have to seek a >> balance. Telling people to simply go use RoR or Django doesn't help >> your cause. >> >> > > > > -- The difference between greatness and mediocrity is doing things right even when the only thing at stake is the tissue thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill -- John Updike --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
