On 08/10/18 20:46, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 10/08/2018 07:43 AM, Rhodri James wrote:
I appreciate that the moderators are volunteers, but they have
official power on this list. Being volunteers doesn't mean that they
can't get it wrong, or that we shouldn't call them on it when they do.
I completely agree.
They have got things wrong,
I completely disagree.
Understood :-)
and I have called them on it.
Yes, you and a few others -- and nobody has actually talked (emailed) us
directly, but rather talked *about* us on the list [1].
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2018-October/737396.html
was addressed to you on the list (I don't think public decisions should
be questioned in private). I posted to the "So apparently I've been
banned..." thread as well, but that doesn't seem to be in the archive.
Definitely one of my angrier posts, but to you rather than about you.
I have actual work to do, so I'm not going to trawl the archives for
other examples, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person to question
you like that.
The response has been... I'm trying not to say "patronising" because
I'm fairly sure it wasn't meant that way, but "I'm sorry you feel that
way" made me feel patronised.
You're right, I didn't mean it that way, and I apologize.
Thank you. I understand using formal language to show objectivity, but
at the moment its also creating a them-and-us separation. It's a large
chunk of the reason why I'm angry rather than merely lacking in respect
for your collective decisions.
To briefly explain our decisions of late:
Suspending D'Aprano:
-------------------
His public post to me was shared with several people, including
moderators of others lists, and it was unanimously agreed that his post
was completely unacceptable and a two month suspension was appropriate.
I restarted that suspension because, according to his own words, "I am
ignoring the ban in this instance"; had he emailed me privately I would
have correctly posted the notice to the list; had he not said that and
just posted I would have fixed the filter and left the suspension alone
(he posts from comp.lang.python).
I disagree with the original ban, frankly. Reimposing it seems petty.
Suspending Mark Lawrence:
------------------------
He has a history of posting attacks. I sent him a private warning, he
responded a couple days later with another attack.
No contest. Mark was way over the line, and it's not the first time.
Suspending BartC:
----------------
Many, if not most, of his posts' primary relation to Python was how his
personal language was better. The resulting threads seemed to be
largely unfriendly, unproductive, and unnecessary.
I killfiled Bart a long time ago for his poor signal to noise ratio, but
that's as far as my reaction to him goes. I don't think "unfriendly,
unproductive and unnecessary" are good enough reasons to ban him.
Encourage people not to listen and not to feed the trolling, fine, but a
ban is over the top.
Banning Rick Johnson:
--------------------
Hopefully no explanation needed [2].
Explanation/justification needed, but given :-) Again, I killfiled Rick
ages ago, and I agree his language does justify banning.
Shutting down threads:
---------------------
There is a problem with threads getting heated and people not exercising
self-control and posting inappropriately. That makes the list
unwelcoming. As soon as we feel that that is happening we are going to
shut down the thread. Personal attacks and name-calling are not
appropriate and will not be tolerated. The goal is not to shut down
debate -- as long as the debate stays civil it will get no moderation
action. If a thread is shut down and you feel there is more to be
(civilly) said -- wait a couple days so everyone can cool off, and then
start a new thread.
Well, no. It doesn't work like that. Rapping people over the knuckles
for name-calling and aggressive behaviour is all well and good, and
doing more of that would be entirely appropriate. However regardless of
what you think, shutting down threads *is* shutting down debate. The
thread is closed, and there is a strong implication that the subject is
taboo. Had I restarted it, I would have expected to be slapped. That's
why I snuck a key argument about the master/slave debate into an
entirely different thread, and didn't even reference the master/slave
discussion.
The impression that I'm getting is that in recent times the moderators
have become heavy-handed. I realise that a certain amount of that is
due to the rather blunt tools you have, but that doesn't make it any
less heavy handed. That is something I don't, and never will, respect.
Hopefully you now agree with our decisions, or at least support us in
them. If you don't, I actually am sorry -- I would much rather have
your support (and everyone's). Either way, we are not changing our
minds about them.
That's your privilege as moderators, and mine as an individual that I
still don't agree with you.
--
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
