There is an interesting bit on copyright that's list four things relating to Software. One covers the code as literary, the other covers the output from code as far as I can ascertain.
The code is a literary work The on-screen display could be an artistic work The soundtracks are musical works Moving images can be protected as a film and so on It goes on to cover non-literal copying of software, full article here. http://www.inbrief.co.uk/intellectual-property/copyright-protection-for-software/ For me there is no question, it's copyrighted unless there evidence that is not. Qliberator is a case in point, it's copyright protected until both authors state it can be public domain. Now it is interesting for a discussion perspective about non-literal copying if a protected programme is hacked and the software no longer has its anti copying protection then effectively it's not the same software anymore. On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 at 12:51, Colin McKay <kilbarchan.co...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > When a member of the Bristol Group, I remember being told that any program > lodged in the QL system automatically became public domain. Can that be > confirmed? > > Whilst searching the web, one site virtually stated that anything a person > produces is automatically subject to copyright. Another site stated that > copyrights can be registered. Do any of the QL programs expressly claim > copyright? Compare the situation with that of books, many display the word > 'copyright' on an introductory page. > > Entering the sordid topic of coin, it is difficult to imagine that it would > profit any originator of a QL program to seek recompense from the courts > for > infringement of copyright. Consider the value of past sales, future > possible > sales, and legal costs. The case would have to be based on the miss-selling > of a number of programs to create a sufficiently large claim. > > I have used Text87 almost since its availability. In those far back days I > spoke to a member of the firm which produced it, and he explained some of > its facilities. Later my memory failed, and I could not reconstruct the > steps from the manual. From this, I suggest that whilst the program is very > good, its value is diminished from the fact that its manual is seriously > deficient. I suspect that situation could exist for many QL programs. They > are written by insiders for the use of insiders. > > As regards the QL dying, to me the main factor for this is the inability of > the QL community to create a system of durable software which would enable > the purchaser of a machine (emulator) to instantly have a day-to-day > coherent usable collection of programs not prone to enthusiasts > ideosyncrasies. > > Colin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ql-Users [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of > ql-users-requ...@lists.q-v-d.com > Sent: 09 July 2016 10:39 > To: ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com > Subject: Ql-Users Digest, Vol 149, Issue 17 > > Send Ql-Users mailing list submissions to > ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.q-v-d.com/listinfo.cgi/ql-users-q-v-d.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ql-users-requ...@lists.q-v-d.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ql-users-ow...@lists.q-v-d.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Ql-Users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Withdrawal of my personal Software Preservation > Project > (Norman Dunbar) > 2. Re: Withdrawal of my personal Software > Preservation > Project > (Norman Dunbar) > 3. Re: Withdrawal of my personal Software Preservation Project > (Derek Stewart) > 4. Re: Withdrawal of my personal Software Preservation Project > (Richard Howe) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 21:09:15 +0100 > From: Norman Dunbar <nor...@dunbar-it.co.uk> > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > Preservation Project > Message-ID: <9e7f06d5-7bb9-400c-a399-ad5524b62...@dunbar-it.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Still a verb. It's an action. > > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infringe > > I wish I could get out of the sun! But it's too sunny and way to hot for a > Jock like me! > > > Cheers, > Norm. > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 21:11:35 +0100 > From: Norman Dunbar <nor...@dunbar-it.co.uk> > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > Preservation Project > Message-ID: <3860c8a4-f79d-4470-bc70-67312f05c...@dunbar-it.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Whoops! > > To infringe, verb. > An infringement noun. > Apologies. > > Cheers, > Norm. > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:41:13 +0100 > From: Derek Stewart <de...@q40.de> > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > Preservation Project > Message-ID: <5780aa99.9000...@q40.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > Hi Richard, > > I bought a copy of Master Spy in 1989 from TK Computaware, aftwer a review > in QL Wolrd. > > I must say that Master Spy was one of best QL software I have ever had. > I am sorry for not buying it direct from you. > > Regards, > > Derek > > On 07/07/16 16:16, Richard Howe wrote: > > Hi > > > > I don't often reply in the forum but I do watch it, and this thread > > caught my attention. > > > > Issues: > > 1. Integrity. > > 2. Letting go of personal attacks by trolls, and the trolls > > themselves. > > 3. Copyright. > > > > 1. Integrity. > > Those who appreciate the value of copyright do so because it is > > 'right' to morally and financially support those who give energy to > > projects that interest the community. Those who break copyright law > > are ignorant of this, their minds commonly lacking respect for others. > > Those who simply observe the law have missed the point. > > > > 2. Letting go. > > When encountering people of low integrity it is important first to > > recognise them for the ignorant people they are, and quickly say > > 'bye'. It's easy to forgive them because they are obviously too > > ignorant to dig themselves out of the pit they have dug for > > themselves. Allowing trolls space in your mind will lead to your poor > > health as you are allowing your own ego to mull over their negative > > words. Simply know the community is constructive, and will dismiss them > and their comments. Only trolls really engage with trolls. > > Letting go is an important healing principle. > > > > 3. Copyright. > > I would not be fussed if copies of my old QL programs were passed around. > > However, I am writing a website that uses a few original ideas in > > them, and I 'would' be fussed if the ideas were misused and undermined > > my current project. The law allows for 'fair use' of parts of a > > copyright item and this is wise. Special licences can also widen the > > availability for users while protecting essentials for the author. > > Perhaps I should mention that thirty years ago I wrote the Spy and Master > Spy editors, Archivist, Mailfile, etc. > > Back then there were enthusiasts but few buyers, much like today. I > > haven't sold anything QL in the last twenty years. I seem to remember > > all the profits were ploughed back into advertising. That's the nature > > of the game sometimes. > > > > Kind regards > > Richard Howe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ql-Users [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of > > Rich Mellor > > Sent: 07 July 2016 14:32 > > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > > Preservation Project > > > > On 07/07/2016 11:13, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Just my 2 cents worth. > >> > >> As I understand it, Rich came under attack from some (as yet unnamed) > >> sources because he (i) sells old programs for the QL and (ii) sent > >> take-down notices (or was suspected of sending them) to sites that > >> apparently hosted copyrighted files without the owners' consent. > >> > >> It goes without saying that being attacked for these actions is just > >> unacceptable. I'm alarmed, Rich, that this should cause you health > >> problems. I believe that the echo your decision got on the list here > >> shows that people here do support you. > >> > >> Except for the health problem, I'm not sure that I understand why > >> this causes you to stop your preservation project. Surely the best > >> strategy to adopt is to ignore the <your favorite swear word here> > >> who bring these attacks - and go on as before ? > >> > >> I think, Rich, that you should publish here extracts of the offending > >> emails or whatever form that correspondence took, together with the > >> author's names, so that I, for one, could be sure not to have any > >> contact with them. > >> > >> > >> The discussion now seems to center on whether all QL software should > >> be made available for free. I agree with much of what Marcel writes, > >> in that I also think that all of this 30+ years old software > >> **should** be free. Like Marcel, I'm in the process of releasing my > >> commercial programs as freeware, as and when I get around to it. > >> However, the decision to do so is mine and nobody else's. Likewise, > >> the decision for others to do so with their software is theirs. Do I > >> think that that old software should be released for free, like Marcel > >> does ? Sure ! Would I, like Marcel, refuse to pay a cent for any old > >> game ? Yup : if it isn't free, I don't even look at it. > >> > >> But I don't see what's wrong with copyright owners holding on to > >> their property, nor with Rich trying to sell some software and make > >> some money from it. I do not understand the mindset of people who > >> believe that these things MUST NECESSARILY be free and if they > >> aren't, then the copyright owners and traders are evil, and fair game > >> for any sort of abuse (I'm not accusing anybody on this list of thinking > that way!). > >> > >> Is the fact that some copyright owners try to make a buck off their > >> software in any way nefarious or detrimental to the QL scene ? In > >> other words, do we loose users because of it ? I don't believe so. I > >> frankly fail to believe that someone new to the QL scene would look > >> at it, look at the software available, think < hey that's a game I > >> must have > and then go away when he discovers that the game is still > >> being > > sold.. > >> > >> As to the problem of hosting these still copyrighted files, I like > >> Marcel's analogy with (minor!) traffic law violations - you can > >> choose, say, to double-park < just for a few minutes > and run the > >> risk of getting a fine. Likewise, you can also choose to host > >> copyrighted files and run the risk of criminal proceedings (with much > > higher penalties). > >> The risk of being sued is probably minimal. The operating words being > >> < probable > -i.e. not certain, and < minimal > i.e. not null. It is > >> up to each of us to assess that risk and ask themselves whether they > >> want to run it. However, as one of those darned lawyers myself, what > >> would I tell a client if he asked me whether he should/could host > >> copyrighted files (w/o the copyright owners' permission, that is) ? > >> The answer would be a clear and unequivocal < no >. > >> > >> QL forever! > >> > >> Wolfgang > >> _______________________________________________ > >> QL-Users Mailing List > >> > > Maybe with our legal backgrounds, we both see the need to protect > > rights and for that reason neither of us would get involved in hosting > > copyrighted files. > > > > I think the need to obtain the copyright holders' permission is > > paramount - if you do not bother to approach them and are later found > > out as having breached their copyright, then it is a much more fraught > > position than if you contacted them first and ascertained what they would > like to happen. > > > > Let's face it, if someone approached a best selling author and said - > > could we host downloads of your books from the 1980s which have been > > out of print for 20 years, they may well say yes - I would love to see > it. > > But if you offer the books for download and then someone pointed them > > to your site, they are much much less likely to think that is acceptable. > > > > As for the impact on my health - the problem is that (as some people > > are > > aware) I have been struggling with poor health now for 2 1/2 years - > > the stress of dealing with these personal attacks on both myself and > > my business just compounds that as it adds to my (already) poor sleep. > > > > I would rather not publicise the attacks further by including extracts > > - but there are several (generally Spanish) forums and even a well > > known Spectrum forum where these attacks have been levied (generally > > started by the same username, but then carried on by others). > > > > -- > > Rich Mellor > > RWAP Services > > Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services > > > > www.rwapservices.co.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 10:37:55 +0100 > From: "Richard Howe" <rich...@arkd.co.uk> > To: <ql-us...@q-v-d.com> > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > Preservation Project > Message-ID: <000c01d1d9c5$92e438b0$b8acaa10$@arkd.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thanks Derek > > I am pleased you found it useful, and pleased you bought it from Tom (last > name Dolezal). > > I remember TK Computerware as a consistent supporter and retailer of QL and > Z88 products at the time. Tom worked in Ashford, Kent but I think he moved > in the 90s. When credit card fraud began to take hold. He 'sold' a Z88 to a > fraudster who later phoned him and boasted about the fraud. Wolfgang > suggested 'some people are just evil'. Well that kind of deliberate torture > comes close. On a positive note I did get some fraudsters arrested one > time, > they were under 18 apparently. Their leader had the sense to leg it but > must > have had a few sleepless nights. Still, that's another story. > > Best wishes > Richard Howe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ql-Users [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of > Derek > Stewart > Sent: 09 July 2016 08:41 > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software Preservation > Project > > Hi Richard, > > I bought a copy of Master Spy in 1989 from TK Computaware, aftwer a review > in QL Wolrd. > > I must say that Master Spy was one of best QL software I have ever had. > I am sorry for not buying it direct from you. > > Regards, > > Derek > > On 07/07/16 16:16, Richard Howe wrote: > > Hi > > > > I don't often reply in the forum but I do watch it, and this thread > > caught my attention. > > > > Issues: > > 1. Integrity. > > 2. Letting go of personal attacks by trolls, and the trolls > > themselves. > > 3. Copyright. > > > > 1. Integrity. > > Those who appreciate the value of copyright do so because it is > > 'right' to morally and financially support those who give energy to > > projects that interest the community. Those who break copyright law > > are ignorant of this, their minds commonly lacking respect for others. > > Those who simply observe the law have missed the point. > > > > 2. Letting go. > > When encountering people of low integrity it is important first to > > recognise them for the ignorant people they are, and quickly say > > 'bye'. It's easy to forgive them because they are obviously too > > ignorant to dig themselves out of the pit they have dug for > > themselves. Allowing trolls space in your mind will lead to your poor > > health as you are allowing your own ego to mull over their negative > > words. Simply know the community is constructive, and will dismiss > > them > and their comments. Only trolls really engage with trolls. > > Letting go is an important healing principle. > > > > 3. Copyright. > > I would not be fussed if copies of my old QL programs were passed around. > > However, I am writing a website that uses a few original ideas in > > them, and I 'would' be fussed if the ideas were misused and undermined > > my current project. The law allows for 'fair use' of parts of a > > copyright item and this is wise. Special licences can also widen the > > availability for users while protecting essentials for the author. > > Perhaps I should mention that thirty years ago I wrote the Spy and > > Master > Spy editors, Archivist, Mailfile, etc. > > Back then there were enthusiasts but few buyers, much like today. I > > haven't sold anything QL in the last twenty years. I seem to remember > > all the profits were ploughed back into advertising. That's the nature > > of the game sometimes. > > > > Kind regards > > Richard Howe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ql-Users [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of > > Rich Mellor > > Sent: 07 July 2016 14:32 > > To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com > > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Withdrawal of my personal Software > > Preservation Project > > > > On 07/07/2016 11:13, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Just my 2 cents worth. > >> > >> As I understand it, Rich came under attack from some (as yet unnamed) > >> sources because he (i) sells old programs for the QL and (ii) sent > >> take-down notices (or was suspected of sending them) to sites that > >> apparently hosted copyrighted files without the owners' consent. > >> > >> It goes without saying that being attacked for these actions is just > >> unacceptable. I'm alarmed, Rich, that this should cause you health > >> problems. I believe that the echo your decision got on the list here > >> shows that people here do support you. > >> > >> Except for the health problem, I'm not sure that I understand why > >> this causes you to stop your preservation project. Surely the best > >> strategy to adopt is to ignore the <your favorite swear word here> > >> who bring these attacks - and go on as before ? > >> > >> I think, Rich, that you should publish here extracts of the offending > >> emails or whatever form that correspondence took, together with the > >> author's names, so that I, for one, could be sure not to have any > >> contact with them. > >> > >> > >> The discussion now seems to center on whether all QL software should > >> be made available for free. I agree with much of what Marcel writes, > >> in that I also think that all of this 30+ years old software > >> **should** be free. Like Marcel, I'm in the process of releasing my > >> commercial programs as freeware, as and when I get around to it. > >> However, the decision to do so is mine and nobody else's. Likewise, > >> the decision for others to do so with their software is theirs. Do I > >> think that that old software should be released for free, like Marcel > >> does ? Sure ! Would I, like Marcel, refuse to pay a cent for any old > >> game ? Yup : if it isn't free, I don't even look at it. > >> > >> But I don't see what's wrong with copyright owners holding on to > >> their property, nor with Rich trying to sell some software and make > >> some money from it. I do not understand the mindset of people who > >> believe that these things MUST NECESSARILY be free and if they > >> aren't, then the copyright owners and traders are evil, and fair game > >> for any sort of abuse (I'm not accusing anybody on this list of > >> thinking > that way!). > >> > >> Is the fact that some copyright owners try to make a buck off their > >> software in any way nefarious or detrimental to the QL scene ? In > >> other words, do we loose users because of it ? I don't believe so. I > >> frankly fail to believe that someone new to the QL scene would look > >> at it, look at the software available, think < hey that's a game I > >> must have > and then go away when he discovers that the game is still > >> being > > sold.. > >> > >> As to the problem of hosting these still copyrighted files, I like > >> Marcel's analogy with (minor!) traffic law violations - you can > >> choose, say, to double-park < just for a few minutes > and run the > >> risk of getting a fine. Likewise, you can also choose to host > >> copyrighted files and run the risk of criminal proceedings (with much > > higher penalties). > >> The risk of being sued is probably minimal. The operating words being > >> < probable > -i.e. not certain, and < minimal > i.e. not null. It is > >> up to each of us to assess that risk and ask themselves whether they > >> want to run it. However, as one of those darned lawyers myself, what > >> would I tell a client if he asked me whether he should/could host > >> copyrighted files (w/o the copyright owners' permission, that is) ? > >> The answer would be a clear and unequivocal < no >. > >> > >> QL forever! > >> > >> Wolfgang > >> _______________________________________________ > >> QL-Users Mailing List > >> > > Maybe with our legal backgrounds, we both see the need to protect > > rights and for that reason neither of us would get involved in hosting > > copyrighted files. > > > > I think the need to obtain the copyright holders' permission is > > paramount - if you do not bother to approach them and are later found > > out as having breached their copyright, then it is a much more fraught > > position than if you contacted them first and ascertained what they > > would > like to happen. > > > > Let's face it, if someone approached a best selling author and said - > > could we host downloads of your books from the 1980s which have been > > out of print for 20 years, they may well say yes - I would love to see > it. > > But if you offer the books for download and then someone pointed them > > to your site, they are much much less likely to think that is acceptable. > > > > As for the impact on my health - the problem is that (as some people > > are > > aware) I have been struggling with poor health now for 2 1/2 years - > > the stress of dealing with these personal attacks on both myself and > > my business just compounds that as it adds to my (already) poor sleep. > > > > I would rather not publicise the attacks further by including extracts > > - but there are several (generally Spanish) forums and even a well > > known Spectrum forum where these attacks have been levied (generally > > started by the same username, but then carried on by others). > > > > -- > > Rich Mellor > > RWAP Services > > Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services > > > > www.rwapservices.co.uk > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > _______________________________________________ > > QL-Users Mailing List > > > _______________________________________________ > QL-Users Mailing List > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > QL-Users mailing list > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Ql-Users Digest, Vol 149, Issue 17 > ***************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > QL-Users Mailing List > _______________________________________________ QL-Users Mailing List
