Eric Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> You're aware that some machines *which didn't relay* were being tested
>> by ORBS as frequently as once a *day*, aren't you? Or are you just
>> going by Alan Brown's account of what he does, which tends to be a
>> little... sanitized?
> Once a day? Doesn't the test take almost a week? It did in my case.
It takes however long Alan decides to make it take. The rules change
arbitrarily depending on who the target is and what mood he's in, and
they're not reflected on the web pages.
> And no, I don't believe anything unless I test it myself. During the
> last bruhaha, I reported my own mailer as an open relay, so I could have
> it tested. After it was tested, I reported it again, to which ORBS
> responded that it had been tested recently, and could not be tested
> again for 30/60/90 days (I don't remember which).
You haven't annoyed Alan.
> It seems to me that if ORBS is testing every day, there's some kind of
> problem. Why not try to work with them to get the problem fixed,
> instead of declaring "nuke the site from orbit" immediately?
Because of the sheer number of these sorts of "problems" that have
occurred, generally denied to have ever existed. It's all anecdotal, I
realize. But I don't hear these things about RSS or about the RBL.
>> You're also aware that ORBS continues to spam the postmasters of
>> machines which have never relayed in their entire existence?
> Wasn't aware of that.
I get spam from them on a regular basis. Sure, it's a lot less in volume
than the spam I get from other sources... at least right now. But I've
made them aware that it's unwanted, those machines have *never* relayed,
and it continues.
It's unsolicited, and it's sent in bulk. It's spam. And it does nothing
to stop spam.
>> You're also aware that ORBS provides a service to spammers, providing a
>> downloadable database of open relays and essentially inviting spammers
>> to please use them?
> All of which are blocked by ORBS.
Ah, I see, so extortion is a good way to fight spam?
> RBL provides a similar list of spam-friendly domains, all of which are
> blocked by RBL.
You cannot do more than check a single IP address and get a yes or no
response without having a signed agreement with the RBL team. At the
moment, I don't believe they even allow you to download their whole list
at all since they're reworking the agreement. ORBS, in stark contrast,
makes the entire list available as a convenient download on their web
site, suitable for being fed into spamming software. Seems to me that
part of the goal here is to force people into using ORBS by increasing the
spam of everyone who doesn't, or at least it sure gives that impression.
> Hardly. You've got it completely backwards. I'm looking at my own spam
> numbers (that's what going on), and seeing that ORBS is helping much
> more than MAPS.
MAPS is a bunch of separate black-lists.
ORBS is not comparable to the RBL; their goals are completely different.
The purpose of ORBS is to filter spam. The purpose of the RBL is not to
filter spam. The purpose of the RBL is to be a sufficiently large stick
that it will scare people away from spamming in the first place, and it's
quite effective at being that.
ORBS is more directly comparable to the RSS. RSS requires evidence that a
relay is actually being spammed through before it lists them, and RSS
doesn't scan people's networks. ORBS doesn't care if the relay has ever
been abused, and ORBS actively scans. Because of that, ORBS is more
effective at blocking spam. ORBS is also more effective at blocking
things that aren't spam. The false positive rate and the politics I have
to accept by using ORBS are too much to ask, as far as I'm concerned.
> Whatever happened to helping other people make their services better,
> rather than declaring all-out war on them and trying to destroy them?
Why don't you ask Alan that? Maybe he should stop picking fights.
> We're misplacing all of the anger that we have for spammers onto ORBS
> simply because a few test messages find their way in just like spam, and
> declaring war without even thinking it through.
No, sir, I think you should speak for yourself. I'm not misplacing any
anger. I'm angry at ORBS because they're abusing the Internet in
precisely the same way that spammers do, supposedly for a good cause
(which spammers also claim) and in the process they're making fighting
spam *harder* because people who want to put a stop to abuse of their
resources are confused with fanatics like Alan Brown. I've tried very
hard to give ORBS the benefit of the doubt, but particularly with this
latest all-out attack against AboveNet I'm seeing a lot more in common
between ORBS and the spammers than between ORBS and the legitimate users
of the Internet.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
