That's where it can become a boring semantic debate.  Somebody could say 
'the Roadeo is a road racing bike that can take 32mm tires', and then point 
to a 1963 Jack Taylor that can take 32mm tires.  Still, to me the Roadeo is 
unique.  More BB drop, slacker STA, slightly upsloping TT, etc.  Grant 
didn't copy anything when he designed the Roadeo.  He identified a VACUUM 
in the road bike market and filled it.  The Legolas is probably the model 
most similar to other cyclocross racing bikes.  There have been nice steel 
cyclocross racing bikes that the Legolas is pretty similar to.  You'd have 
to be in the small details to laud the unique details, but still I think 
they are there.  

No production bike company ever has been so devoted to unique lugged bikes 
that they custom cast everything.  Fork crowns, lugs, dropouts, all custom, 
because nothing else was right for what they wanted to do.  More BB drop 
than anybody means a different BB shell than anybody.  A slacker STA than 
anybody influences the BB and the seat cluster.  The longest chainstays on 
touring bikes used to be limited by what an uncut Reynolds or Columbus 
chainstay happened to be.  Riv had their own tubing made to push things 
that everybody else just passively considered 'unpushable'.  Doing 
something new doesn't automatically make them better, but it does make them 
different and it does make it an additional choice for us that never 
existed, and it definitely makes Rivendell 'not-retro'.  

The other revolutionary thing is several Riv models use two or three 
different wheel sizes proportionally with frame size.  That's never been 
done.  Long Haul Trucker offers wheel size choices, but not proportionally 
with frame size, and the Long Haul Trucker is considered a budget Atlantis 
anyway.  Nobody did it before Rivendell did.  Again, that doesn't make it 
right, but again it makes Rivendell not retro.  

On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 5:19:34 PM UTC-7, Orc wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 26, 2017 at 4:21:24 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I can't tell if this question is honest curiosity or the beginning of a 
>> semantic debate.  I hope it's the former, because semantic debates are 
>> super boring.  
>>
>
>   Honest curiosity.    There has been a LOT of bicycle design in the last 
> 160 years, and it's a pretty bold claim to state that every design that 
> Grant has made is something bold and unique.    I see Riv pushing at the 
> edges (tire gigantism, long chainstays & an almost religious faith in the 
> benefits of upright seating) but even models that I thought were pretty 
> unique (the Rosco Bubbe) have predecessors (in the case of the mtb RB, my 
> first half frame was based off a Trek 820 from '91(ish) that has almost 
> exactly -- the HT is much shorter on the 820, and the rear triangle is a cm 
> or so shorter -- the same geometry as the RB that was briefly in my hands) 
> in the field.
>
>   The lugs are really distinctive  (I wish that I'd stocked up on them 
> when Riv was still selling grabbag lugs from discontinued models!) and 
> Grant has an eye for matching lugs to frames to paint that I've not seen 
> elsewhere (and this is nothing to complain about.  If I were buying 
> expensive frames -- and if Riv didn't have their religious faith in upright 
> seating -- I'd rather buy a pretty and marginally heavier Riv instead of a 
> carbon fiber frame.)  
>
>

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