There's a lot of stuff in the Blahg post. I'm glad I took the time to read it all.
It's been mentioned here a couple times already, but it doesn't have to be a battle between friction and index. Why not both, and part of that is for the reasons that Patrick M. and Mark R. are stating. There's a value to the experience of direct control of the machine. I see young people seeking out those kinds of experiences all over the place - vinyl records, hand crank coffee grinders, knitting and other crafts, even trendy axes. *Tools for Conviviality* is definitely a good source for thinking about that kind of stuff. I don't know how far it gets into the lived experiences of young adults who come of age in a digital world, but many people under 30 feel like they are missing something by having their day-to-day existence black-boxed and white-labeled. My brother (currently about 25) said of his peers, "We latch on to anything that can give us a real expereience." FWIW, he is into printmaking. Things like friction shifters need to continue to exist so that people who are compelled to have the experience can have it. I think Riv and Grant do an amazing job putting things like friction shifters out there and attracting the people who want to try them. That doesn't mean that index shifting doesn't have a place. Grant even explicitly talks about a certain type of skilled MTB rider who enjoys the thrill of riding fast, dodging trees, and popping wheelies. And every time it comes up, he say something to the effect of "If you like it, good for you, go have fun." I've done a lot of mountain biking with friction shifting (even 10 speed), and I like it just fine. If I need to go from a hard gear to and easy gear, I just yank the lever further and keep pedaling. But I prefer a 21st century index shifter on my mountain bike, mostly because the shifter is easier to access with my hands near the brakes. I think that there are skills that are easier to learn on a bike with index shifters and short chainstays and skills that are easier to learn on friction/long bikes. I've reached the limits of what I can do on my MTBubbe, but I want to keep pushing my limits, so I'm going to try out a modern MTB. I've been practicing manuals and bunny hops and drops and pump tracks and all of that. It's all super fun to me, but some of it is damn hard on a long bike. I wipe out on berms and babyheads almost every time I ride. I enjoy going slow over them, and I can stay upright, but I'd like to ride them faster, and a little suspension will improve traction and make that possible. I don't know about short chainstays, steep seat tube angles, and short stems though. We'll see. I don't expect my Rivs to do everything a modern MTB does. I KNOW that they do some things better though. I've only ridden a handful of trails that might be more fun on a squishy bike. I don't think most single track will be made any better by suspension and shorter wheelbase. I like brifters. I like friction and index bar ends. Not so into thumbies. Hate downtubes. It's all personal preference, and thanks to Grant for making such idiocyncratic bikes that people with indocyncratic preferences and bikes to ride. Index shifters and Riv bikes are for everyone, but chosen by a type of person who values (at least part of) the experience they enable. That type of person and those values aren't going anywhere. As long as there are parts out there and the freedom and knowledge to fool around with them, the people who want them will find them. My Rosco Baby and my wife's Clem fit on my roof rack, so there are definitely options for carrying long bikes. Paul in NW Arkansas P.S. Every time Grant says he doesn't like something, he isn't "belittling" it. He may be philosophically opposed to the industry trends and modern MTB risk-taking style that led to what he's talking about, but it's clear he respects other riders and the riding they enjoy: "For having fun and as a dancing sprite, andelf-imp on twisty singletracks, tossing the rear wheel here and there, wheelie-ing on a whim, and other things like that, that sound fun on paper, but I couldn’t relate to. Maybe it is a matter of riding style and skill." Grant has his riding style and his bikes are good for it. Other people have a different style and they choose bike for that. Some people enjoy many styles and buy Rivs and modern bikes and ride them all, and I've never heard Grant say negative stuff about anyone enjoying any kind of bike ride - the industry pushing a style for sales and the compromises it makes to push that style, and the environmental costs and labor costs etc. - that's another thing. Just Ride. On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 8:27:50 PM UTC-6, Eric Daume wrote: > > They’re hard to wheelie? > > Grant belittles a “playful” mountain bike in this post, but getting the > front end up to get over an obstacle, or just to have fun, is part of > mountain biking. > > My Jones LWB is a very capable mountain bike, but it’s noticeably harder > to loft the front than a shorter stayed bike. I can’t recall even trying to > wheelie my Clem. > > Oh, and they take two chains. > > Eric > > On Thursday, January 2, 2020, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA <benzo...@gmail.com > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:55:08 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote: >>> >>> Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely >>> out of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but >>> there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all >>> sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never >>> ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly >>> three!)… >>> >> >> I've only scant experience with the LWB bikes, having built a couple or >> three for a friend (so have to do shakedown rides), and riding the MIT >> Atlantis one time at RBWHQ. I didn't really find anything objectable with >> them at all, and the only remarkable challenge I saw was fitting a LWB into >> a car. They rode similar to other Rivendell bikes (of which I have four) – >> stable and predictable. So what didn't you like about your LWB bikes? Given >> that handling is more than the sum of its parts, how did you come to >> attribute any difference solely to the LWB? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/369811ee-2334-41a3-b60b-81419a1b7b4b%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/369811ee-2334-41a3-b60b-81419a1b7b4b%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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