Let us agree to fight it out by proxy. Proxies! Let us know your (real-life, personal) experiences relevant to comparing how tubeless setups affect ride quality -- resistance and cushioning. Include the effects, if any, of sealant in tubeless tires.
Also, why is "internal parts of the tire system rubbing against themselves" not a factor? Or even, not reasonably conjectured to be a factor? (Note the difference.) Perhaps it is not -- either; but I don't see why it is not a factor or even a reasonably conjectured factor. Again, I dump responsibility for evidence on proxies. I do not think, based on a priori and general evidence, that you can reasonably suppose that an fld oz or so of liquid sealant should behave like a layer of puncture belt; after all, one is liquid, one isn't. But I can go beyond thought experiments. I resort to my own experience with the Kojaks: these have a puncture belt (tho' be it said that they roll PDG for commuter tires with such a layer), and were decent, not great, with tubes; without tubes, elevated to Elk Pass (559 X 29, 175 -- !!! -- grams new!) levels of felt speed and smoothness -- with 1 fl oz or so of Orange Seal in them. Thus I refute your imaginings. On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:47 PM ted <ted.ke...@comcast.net> wrote: > Well, I've never run the direct experiment so I'll have to deffer to your > greater experience. > I will however mumble about confirmation bias, psychological bla bla bla > etc. > And I'll reject your "stands to reason" outright. > I don't think "internal parts of the tire system rubbing against > themselves" is an apt characterization at all. Also one does not just > remove the tube and leave it at that, one replaces it with a volume of > viscous fluid that is sloshing around in there while you ride. I think > careful measurement would be needed to determine if the rolling resistance > caused by a tube was greater or smaller than that caused by sealant, and I > doubt the difference would be one that most cyclists could reliably detect > in double blind testing. > On the opposite extreme putting a layer of latex between the tread and the > casing, as some stout schwalbe tires do, makes for the deadest tires I've > ever tried. Should I just assume with no careful testing that putting > ounces of slowly drying laytex inside (and adding more every 6 months or > so) has no effect at all? > > I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between stout schwalbe tires and > similar sized RH extralights. The difference between the same tires with > schwalbe extralight tubes or latex tubes? Not so much. Between extralight > tubes and sealant? Also, not so much. > > On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 3:45:05 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> My experience in comparing the same or similar tires tubeless and with >> tubes is limited, but from based on that experience, I have to disagree: >> getting rid of even light tubes (70 gram or even 60 gram lightweights in >> the 26" X 1" or 650C X 23 mm sizes) certainly seemed to make Schwalbe >> Kojaks roll faster and smoother, and I've mentioned my experience with >> tubeless, paper-thin Big Ones. >> >> This stands to reason: if a good amount of rolling resistance is caused >> by the internal parts of the tire system rubbing against themselves, then >> removing one suchj element would remove one cause of resistance. From the >> opposite extreme, my experience adding Mr Tuffys or suchlike liners very >> definitely makes tires feel slower, as in 6" of cold molasses. >> >> What do others with experience of both systems say? >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 4:32 PM ted <ted....@comcast.net> wrote: >> >>> Roberta, >>> >>> I am so glad you are thrilled with your new stuff. I hope this doesn't >>> come out too negative/snarky/preachy/.... because I can't keep from >>> quibbling. >>> >>> I think tubeless gets a lot of unwarranted or rather I should say >>> imprecisely stated, jumping over an important logical step, credit for >>> giving a "better" ride. Your bikes would probably ride just as dreamy if >>> they had light tubes between the rims and the tires as they do with the >>> sealant that is in there now. It''s the tires, and pressure, followed >>> perhaps by the rims and spokes that give you that ride. The tubeless thing >>> "just" (potentially) changes how you experience flats with those tires. >>> (Btw I think there is a similar and valid argument regarding weight.) Since >>> you aren't a 200+ lb guy or riding 23mm tires, I'll wager you'd never have >>> trouble with pinch flats either way. So what tubeless is really doing for >>> you is saving you from dealing with road debris (e.g. goat heads, >>> staples/wires, glass, etc.) induced flats. >>> >>> The number of road debris induced flats a person encounters, as well as >>> how inconvenient those flat are, can be quite dependent the the local and >>> the person. For example I think there is a list member who can barely go a >>> mile without hitting a goat head, whereas I can go months at a time on RH >>> extralight tires with superlight tubes and never get a flat. I think James >>> hates fixing flats in the rain and/or mud. Where I live it doesn't rain for >>> months on end. >>> >>> On the other hand, the difference in ride qualities between uber stout >>> tires and very light supple tires is the same for everybody everywhere >>> (though admittedly some folks care more than others). So I think it is >>> worth while to be clear about exactly what the direct benefits of going >>> tubeless are. >>> >>> Anyway. Congratulations on your great upgrades. Sounds wonderful. >>> >>> regards >>> Ted >>> p.s. If you want to go crazy on the weight saving, get a Ti frame >>> Brooks, Rivet, or Berthoud saddle and a 1/3 Ti duraAce cassette. >>> >>> On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:42:36 AM UTC-7, Roberta wrote: >>>> >>>> In April 2017, I rode a 2016 stock-built Rivendell Joe Appaloosa at >>>> Gravel and Grind and fell in love. James (formerly of G&G, now of >>>> Analog Cycles) recommended a Brooks B-17 saddle, fenders, a rear rack, and >>>> I happily pedaled away for the next three years. My only change was >>>> to a Brooks Flyer saddle. >>>> >>>> >>>> I love the ride of the Appaloosa and rode it at home on the weekends. When >>>> I wanted another bike at my office for after work rides, I bought an A. >>>> Homer Hilsen from a fellow RBW member. My only issue with the Joe >>>> Appaloosa was it was heavy for me to maneuver on mass transportation, >>>> steps, and general lifting. Now I had a lighter AHH, and that is the >>>> bike I chose to travel with. >>>> >>>> >>>> But…I still loved the ride of the Appaloosa…it was just so…heavy. A >>>> call to James and Candice one day to talk about tubeless tires options, and >>>> I was signing up to change nearly everything on it to lighten it and get an >>>> even better ride. I changed the saddle back to the B-17, removed the >>>> heavy and too large for my use Carradice bags. Rack, fenders and kickstand >>>> are too practical, so I kept them. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Memorial Day weekend, I drove both bikes to Analog Cycles. AHH got >>>> 1.75” Gravel King tubeless tires and a shorter stem. Instead of >>>> regular grips, they wrapped the grip area with Fizik tape over gel. Deity >>>> valve caps in red for the finishing touch. I didn’t need to change >>>> out anything else on the bike—it already had dyno lighting and the correct >>>> rims. My new bag is a Sackville Banana Sax, just the perfect size! >>>> >>>> >>>> The Appaloosa got the most work. They changed the handlebar from >>>> steel Choco-moose to aluminum Albatross and changed my 3x8 (or 3x9, I >>>> forget) drive train to a 1x11 with indexed shifting. However, the >>>> biggest difference came with the new wheels, tubeless tires and dyno >>>> lighting! Candice recommended purple spoke nipples and they look >>>> great with the butterscotch frame. Near the valve stem, she changed >>>> the colorway to gold, topped off with chartreuse valve caps, and I think it >>>> looks smashing! I also got nice cork grips that probably a “blend” >>>> because they have more give than the Rivendell ones. I also like the >>>> ergonomic “bulge” in the middle, like the older cork grips Riv used to >>>> sell. >>>> >>>> >>>> The ride with the tubeless tires on both bikes, wheels built by >>>> Analog’s master wheel builder Mark, is sublime. The more I ride them, >>>> the more I LOVE them. They soak up the bad city pavement and cracks >>>> in the MUP sidewalks. Even going over railroad tracks isn’t jarring. The >>>> tires just “smush” to take up as much road vibrations as it can. Yet, >>>> they are not slow or plodding. I explained it to Bicycle Belle Ding >>>> Ding, who was anxiously awaiting delivery of her new wheels, this way: >>>> “By the time I get home from my rides, I feel so much less beat up and >>>> feel like I can keep on going.The ride was so much more pleasant.” It >>>> took a few days to get to this state. Every day I rode them I liked >>>> them so much more than the previous day. I think part of that is >>>> getting the psi down to my optimal level. On the day that the >>>> pressure felt too low and I just pumped it up to 35 psi. Over time, >>>> I’ll find my sweet-spot, pressure wise. >>>> >>>> >>>> Then, there is Dyno lighting! I can now just jump on the Appaloosa >>>> without worrying if I charged my lights. The Edulux light Analog >>>> speced is so bright. I have Busch + Muller IQ-XS on the AHH. It’s >>>> very nice, but not nearly as bright as the Edulux. >>>> >>>> >>>> Now the Appaloosa is light enough for me to pick up, move it around, >>>> even carry it up steps if needed, or onto a train if there is no boarding >>>> platform. I just love it! Candice, James, and Mark did a fantastic >>>> job and I’m SO pleased. They are easy to work with and are meticulous >>>> with their work. They picked the parts and basically, I said “OK.” >>>> >>>> Going tubeless took a lot of consideration. I heard so much pros and >>>> cons, but after speaking with James and Candice, I decided to take the >>>> chance. What would happen if I didn’t like it???—I’d take the goo out >>>> of the tires and put in tubes. And, I’d be out some money. But, I’m >>>> so glad (in the two weeks I’ve had the “new” bikes) I took the chance. >>>> The ride quality is AMAZING. Beyond anything I could even imagine. >>>> >>>> >>>> Here are my new Appaloosa parts: >>>> >>>> >>>> Shutter Precision PV-8 Hub >>>> >>>> Bitex Center lock Disc 145mm Rear Hub >>>> >>>> Schmidt Edelux II dynamo light >>>> >>>> Busch & Muller Toplight Line Plus rear light >>>> >>>> Pancenti Brevet Rims >>>> >>>> Sapim Lazer spokes >>>> >>>> Sapim Allow Spoke Nipples in purple >>>> >>>> White Industries ENO Square Taper 1x >>>> >>>> White Industries Titanium Bottom Bracket >>>> >>>> Sram NX 11 Speed Trigger Shifter >>>> >>>> Sram GX Rear Mech rear derailler >>>> >>>> Connex Nickel Plated 11 speed chain XL >>>> >>>> Shimano XT 11-46 11 speed Cassette >>>> >>>> Tallux stem—80mm >>>> >>>> Albatross aluminum handlebars >>>> >>>> Cork grips >>>> >>>> Teravail Rampart 650bx47 light and supple brown wall tires (originally, >>>> these were to be GravelKings, but there was a mix up in the order, so James >>>> and Candice recommended these, as they were in the shop and they were on >>>> their personal bikes.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/572b48e7-0101-4012-98eb-3caf99f5ff29o%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/572b48e7-0101-4012-98eb-3caf99f5ff29o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Patrick Moore >> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a5add49e-786c-44ad-9108-307b517728d0o%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a5add49e-786c-44ad-9108-307b517728d0o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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