Nay, ill not leave it to proxies, though proxies are certainly welcome. But rather lets not fight.
Of course an ounce or two of liquid latex inside the tire is nothing like a 1/4 inch layer of the solid kind between the tread and the casing. Nor is a mr tuffy liner anything like a light tube. Both naught but red herrings. I think its been fairly well established (i.e. the engineering equivalent of settled science) that the vast majority of the energy losses related to rolling resistance are due to hysteresis losses in the tread and casing as they flex due to the movement of the contact patch around the tire as it rolls down the road. That's assuming a hard road surface of course, otherwise there are losses in the "road" that could dominate, and please lets not start on "suspension losses" occurring in the riders tissues. I wouldn't call hysteresis parts of the system rubbing on themselves. There are also losses due to bead squirm (reasonable to call that parts of the system rubbing against each other) and Jobst famously argued that tubulars have worse rolling resistance than clinchers because of losses in the glue. But those are small compared to the hysteresis in the tread and casing. I'm confident careful testing could measure losses due to the tube but I'm sure there would be losses from hysteresis in the tube itself, and I doubt it rubs against the casing in a measurable amount. I frequently have to peal tubes from tires when I don't talc them well. Don't think I've ever seen signs of abrasion. Even with a super thin latex tube and a piece of casing glued over a hole in the casing inside the tire. I've used 80's hand made Clement tubulars, Vitoria CX, CG, and other cheeper cotton tubulars, Continental sprinter tubulars, Compass/RH extralights, the lighter Jack Browns, Schwalbe G-Ones, Continental BBall tires, Marathons, Schwalbe "fatties", Pacenti QuasiMotos, all with tubes and WTB Byways set up tubeless. I can certainly tell the difference between many of those different tires, and I consistently prefer the lighter flimsier ones. I've also gone from cheep bulky heavy inner tubes to Schwalbe Superlight tubes. I can sure tell the difference in how bulky they are (or aren't) stuffing them into a patch kit, but I haven't noticed a difference in ride feel or effort. I have seen reports of testing with butyl vs latex vs sealant for rolling resistance. Can't recall how sealant fit in there but my recollection is the whole question was way down in the weeds. The nearest thing to a direct tubed / tubless comparison I've experienced is two bikes I have where one is on WTB byways (47mm) set up tubeless and the other is on RH 38mm extralights with light tubes. My experience fits well with expectations for the higher volume lower pressure and slightly (?) heavier construction of the Byways compared to the RH. The bike with byways soaks up bigger bumps and holes better and seems a bit harder to push down the road. The only difference I experience that is clearly attributable to sealent vs tubes is: I don't give a thought to goat heads or road debris when I'm on the tubeless bike. So I maintain ride, handling, and RR are dominated by tire pressure, construction and tread. Type of tube or tubeless has a tertiary effect and is lost in the weeds. Of course YMMV and I'd not claim you cant have your own opinion. On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 5:39:31 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Let us agree to fight it out by proxy. Proxies! Let us know your > (real-life, personal) experiences relevant to comparing how tubeless setups > affect ride quality -- resistance and cushioning. Include the effects, if > any, of sealant in tubeless tires. > > Also, why is "internal parts of the tire system rubbing against > themselves" not a factor? Or even, not reasonably conjectured to be a > factor? (Note the difference.) Perhaps it is not -- either; but I don't see > why it is not a factor or even a reasonably conjectured factor. Again, I > dump responsibility for evidence on proxies. > > I do not think, based on a priori and general evidence, that you can > reasonably suppose that an fld oz or so of liquid sealant should behave > like a layer of puncture belt; after all, one is liquid, one isn't. But I > can go beyond thought experiments. I resort to my own experience with the > Kojaks: these have a puncture belt (tho' be it said that they roll PDG for > commuter tires with such a layer), and were decent, not great, with tubes; > without tubes, elevated to Elk Pass (559 X 29, 175 -- !!! -- grams new!) > levels of felt speed and smoothness -- with 1 fl oz or so of Orange Seal in > them. Thus I refute your imaginings. > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:47 PM ted <ted....@comcast.net <javascript:>> > wrote: > >> Well, I've never run the direct experiment so I'll have to deffer to your >> greater experience. >> I will however mumble about confirmation bias, psychological bla bla bla >> etc. >> And I'll reject your "stands to reason" outright. >> I don't think "internal parts of the tire system rubbing against >> themselves" is an apt characterization at all. Also one does not just >> remove the tube and leave it at that, one replaces it with a volume of >> viscous fluid that is sloshing around in there while you ride. I think >> careful measurement would be needed to determine if the rolling resistance >> caused by a tube was greater or smaller than that caused by sealant, and I >> doubt the difference would be one that most cyclists could reliably detect >> in double blind testing. >> On the opposite extreme putting a layer of latex between the tread and >> the casing, as some stout schwalbe tires do, makes for the deadest tires >> I've ever tried. Should I just assume with no careful testing that putting >> ounces of slowly drying laytex inside (and adding more every 6 months or >> so) has no effect at all? >> >> I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between stout schwalbe tires >> and similar sized RH extralights. The difference between the same tires >> with schwalbe extralight tubes or latex tubes? Not so much. Between >> extralight tubes and sealant? Also, not so much. >> >> On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 3:45:05 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: >>> >>> My experience in comparing the same or similar tires tubeless and with >>> tubes is limited, but from based on that experience, I have to disagree: >>> getting rid of even light tubes (70 gram or even 60 gram lightweights in >>> the 26" X 1" or 650C X 23 mm sizes) certainly seemed to make Schwalbe >>> Kojaks roll faster and smoother, and I've mentioned my experience with >>> tubeless, paper-thin Big Ones. >>> >>> This stands to reason: if a good amount of rolling resistance is caused >>> by the internal parts of the tire system rubbing against themselves, then >>> removing one suchj element would remove one cause of resistance. From the >>> opposite extreme, my experience adding Mr Tuffys or suchlike liners very >>> definitely makes tires feel slower, as in 6" of cold molasses. >>> >>> What do others with experience of both systems say? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 4:32 PM ted <ted....@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Roberta, >>>> >>>> I am so glad you are thrilled with your new stuff. I hope this doesn't >>>> come out too negative/snarky/preachy/.... because I can't keep from >>>> quibbling. >>>> >>>> I think tubeless gets a lot of unwarranted or rather I should say >>>> imprecisely stated, jumping over an important logical step, credit for >>>> giving a "better" ride. Your bikes would probably ride just as dreamy if >>>> they had light tubes between the rims and the tires as they do with the >>>> sealant that is in there now. It''s the tires, and pressure, followed >>>> perhaps by the rims and spokes that give you that ride. The tubeless thing >>>> "just" (potentially) changes how you experience flats with those tires. >>>> (Btw I think there is a similar and valid argument regarding weight.) >>>> Since >>>> you aren't a 200+ lb guy or riding 23mm tires, I'll wager you'd never have >>>> trouble with pinch flats either way. So what tubeless is really doing for >>>> you is saving you from dealing with road debris (e.g. goat heads, >>>> staples/wires, glass, etc.) induced flats. >>>> >>>> The number of road debris induced flats a person encounters, as well as >>>> how inconvenient those flat are, can be quite dependent the the local and >>>> the person. For example I think there is a list member who can barely go a >>>> mile without hitting a goat head, whereas I can go months at a time on RH >>>> extralight tires with superlight tubes and never get a flat. I think James >>>> hates fixing flats in the rain and/or mud. Where I live it doesn't rain >>>> for >>>> months on end. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, the difference in ride qualities between uber stout >>>> tires and very light supple tires is the same for everybody everywhere >>>> (though admittedly some folks care more than others). So I think it is >>>> worth while to be clear about exactly what the direct benefits of going >>>> tubeless are. >>>> >>>> Anyway. Congratulations on your great upgrades. Sounds wonderful. >>>> >>>> regards >>>> Ted >>>> p.s. If you want to go crazy on the weight saving, get a Ti frame >>>> Brooks, Rivet, or Berthoud saddle and a 1/3 Ti duraAce cassette. >>>> >>>> On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 9:42:36 AM UTC-7, Roberta wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In April 2017, I rode a 2016 stock-built Rivendell Joe Appaloosa at >>>>> Gravel and Grind and fell in love. James (formerly of G&G, now of >>>>> Analog Cycles) recommended a Brooks B-17 saddle, fenders, a rear rack, >>>>> and >>>>> I happily pedaled away for the next three years. My only change was >>>>> to a Brooks Flyer saddle. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I love the ride of the Appaloosa and rode it at home on the weekends. >>>>> When I wanted another bike at my office for after work rides, I bought >>>>> an A. Homer Hilsen from a fellow RBW member. My only issue with the >>>>> Joe Appaloosa was it was heavy for me to maneuver on mass transportation, >>>>> steps, and general lifting. Now I had a lighter AHH, and that is the >>>>> bike I chose to travel with. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But…I still loved the ride of the Appaloosa…it was just so…heavy. A >>>>> call to James and Candice one day to talk about tubeless tires options, >>>>> and >>>>> I was signing up to change nearly everything on it to lighten it and get >>>>> an >>>>> even better ride. I changed the saddle back to the B-17, removed the >>>>> heavy and too large for my use Carradice bags. Rack, fenders and >>>>> kickstand >>>>> are too practical, so I kept them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Memorial Day weekend, I drove both bikes to Analog Cycles. AHH >>>>> got 1.75” Gravel King tubeless tires and a shorter stem. Instead of >>>>> regular grips, they wrapped the grip area with Fizik tape over gel. >>>>> Deity >>>>> valve caps in red for the finishing touch. I didn’t need to change >>>>> out anything else on the bike—it already had dyno lighting and the >>>>> correct >>>>> rims. My new bag is a Sackville Banana Sax, just the perfect size! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Appaloosa got the most work. They changed the handlebar from >>>>> steel Choco-moose to aluminum Albatross and changed my 3x8 (or 3x9, I >>>>> forget) drive train to a 1x11 with indexed shifting. However, the >>>>> biggest difference came with the new wheels, tubeless tires and dyno >>>>> lighting! Candice recommended purple spoke nipples and they look >>>>> great with the butterscotch frame. Near the valve stem, she changed >>>>> the colorway to gold, topped off with chartreuse valve caps, and I think >>>>> it >>>>> looks smashing! I also got nice cork grips that probably a “blend” >>>>> because they have more give than the Rivendell ones. I also like >>>>> the ergonomic “bulge” in the middle, like the older cork grips Riv used >>>>> to >>>>> sell. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The ride with the tubeless tires on both bikes, wheels built by >>>>> Analog’s master wheel builder Mark, is sublime. The more I ride >>>>> them, the more I LOVE them. They soak up the bad city pavement and >>>>> cracks in the MUP sidewalks. Even going over railroad tracks isn’t >>>>> jarring. The tires just “smush” to take up as much road vibrations >>>>> as it can. Yet, they are not slow or plodding. I explained it to >>>>> Bicycle Belle Ding Ding, who was anxiously awaiting delivery of her new >>>>> wheels, this way: “By the time I get home from my rides, I feel so >>>>> much less beat up and feel like I can keep on going.The ride was so much >>>>> more pleasant.” It took a few days to get to this state. Every day >>>>> I rode them I liked them so much more than the previous day. I think >>>>> part of that is getting the psi down to my optimal level. On the day >>>>> that the pressure felt too low and I just pumped it up to 35 psi. Over >>>>> time, I’ll find my sweet-spot, pressure wise. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then, there is Dyno lighting! I can now just jump on the Appaloosa >>>>> without worrying if I charged my lights. The Edulux light Analog >>>>> speced is so bright. I have Busch + Muller IQ-XS on the AHH. It’s >>>>> very nice, but not nearly as bright as the Edulux. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now the Appaloosa is light enough for me to pick up, move it around, >>>>> even carry it up steps if needed, or onto a train if there is no boarding >>>>> platform. I just love it! Candice, James, and Mark did a fantastic >>>>> job and I’m SO pleased. They are easy to work with and are >>>>> meticulous with their work. They picked the parts and basically, I >>>>> said “OK.” >>>>> >>>>> Going tubeless took a lot of consideration. I heard so much pros and >>>>> cons, but after speaking with James and Candice, I decided to take the >>>>> chance. What would happen if I didn’t like it???—I’d take the goo >>>>> out of the tires and put in tubes. And, I’d be out some money. But, >>>>> I’m so glad (in the two weeks I’ve had the “new” bikes) I took the >>>>> chance. >>>>> The ride quality is AMAZING. Beyond anything I could even imagine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here are my new Appaloosa parts: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shutter Precision PV-8 Hub >>>>> >>>>> Bitex Center lock Disc 145mm Rear Hub >>>>> >>>>> Schmidt Edelux II dynamo light >>>>> >>>>> Busch & Muller Toplight Line Plus rear light >>>>> >>>>> Pancenti Brevet Rims >>>>> >>>>> Sapim Lazer spokes >>>>> >>>>> Sapim Allow Spoke Nipples in purple >>>>> >>>>> White Industries ENO Square Taper 1x >>>>> >>>>> White Industries Titanium Bottom Bracket >>>>> >>>>> Sram NX 11 Speed Trigger Shifter >>>>> >>>>> Sram GX Rear Mech rear derailler >>>>> >>>>> Connex Nickel Plated 11 speed chain XL >>>>> >>>>> Shimano XT 11-46 11 speed Cassette >>>>> >>>>> Tallux stem—80mm >>>>> >>>>> Albatross aluminum handlebars >>>>> >>>>> Cork grips >>>>> >>>>> Teravail Rampart 650bx47 light and supple brown wall tires >>>>> (originally, these were to be GravelKings, but there was a mix up in the >>>>> order, so James and Candice recommended these, as they were in the shop >>>>> and >>>>> they were on their personal bikes.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/572b48e7-0101-4012-98eb-3caf99f5ff29o%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/572b48e7-0101-4012-98eb-3caf99f5ff29o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Patrick Moore >>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a5add49e-786c-44ad-9108-307b517728d0o%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a5add49e-786c-44ad-9108-307b517728d0o%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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