Eric Daume's list begs some lively discussion, but it does illustrate a larger point that I think is gradually becoming a universally held opinion, even though some people don't realize it, and that is the following:
The only thing front facing horizontal dropouts are good for is single speeding. Front facing horizontal dropouts were invented on single cog machines (true single speeds and IGH bikes). Derailleurs were cobbled onto proper front facing horizontals as afterthoughts, because that's what they were. Then, fancier manufacturers (typified by Campagnolo) integrated the derailleur hanger into the front facing horizontal dropout, and copied the silhouette of the cobbled together combo. Hand wavers try to argue that front facing horizontals allow you to "adjust chainstay length", but that is hand waving. Nobody really does that. There were excellent vertical dropouts for derailleur bikes in the 1930s and thereabouts, and I think it's a historical accident that they didn't become the standard. I've got 5 bikes in my stable with forward facing horizontal dropouts. All of them have a rear derailleur, and if I had a magic wand I'd switch four of them to vertical dropouts right now. The only one I wouldn't switch is my Black Mountain rim-brake Monster Cross....because I sometimes run it as a singlespeed. That's the only thing front facing horizontals are good for: single speed setups. Now to Eric's list of claims: *- wheel removal is much easier (and moreso with fenders, and moreso again if you're running a derailer for some reason)* I mainly disagree. Without fenders, it's about the same. With correctly set up fenders, both are a pain with normal rear wheels*. Some people do weird fender installations to accommodate rear wheel removal but the result is ugly fender lines. For all rear wheels with full coverage fenders, the optimum is for the wheel to drop straight down. There are three ways to get that: 1. Vertical dropouts 2. Through axle 3. *A rear hub with no axle stub. Phil track hubs have this feature. So does the White ENO, the Paul WORD, and there have been others. It's a no-brainer for singlespeed fendered setups, IMO. Remove the bolts entirely and the wheel goes straight down and out. Track ends with a derailleur is a pretty goofy setup, and definitely make rear wheel removal harder. See Klein mountain bikes in the early 90s. *- adjusting the wheel position doesn't affect the rim brake position nearly as much (nice for manual gear changes).* True! but that's a function of the angle, not the direction. Rivendell track ends have the same angle and the same attribute. It's absurd other manufacturers didn't copy it. Rivendell did not patent it (or any other thing) and have never sued anybody for copying anything. I wish my Crust SS Lightning Bolt had that gangster lean. It's the only imperfection on that bike, ATMO. I like that my Michigan Man has regular horizontal track ends, because I never change gears on it. *- QR can hold the axle *better* because of the angle of the dropout--the chain isn't just pulling the wheel straight in the dropout, some component of the force is going into the angled wall of the dropout.* Mathematically true. In practical terms: come on. Both are totally fine. If there was some real shortcoming to track ends, track racers and BMX bikes wouldn't use them. This is a non-issue in either direction. *track ends look nicer,* This is subjective, but I totally agree. A singlespeed with front facing horizontals looks goofy. In my stable, I tolerate the goofy look, but I strongly prefer the look of track ends, like Eric does. If Rivendell had me spec the Roaduno, it would have Frank Jones Sr. ends. BL in EC On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 9:48:42 AM UTC-7 Eric Daume wrote: > In my ~25 years of single speed and fixed gear experience, forward facing > dropouts are better in every respect than track ends: > > - wheel removal is much easier (and moreso with fenders, and moreso again > if you're running a derailer for some reason) > - adjusting the wheel position doesn't affect the rim brake position > nearly as much (nice for manual gear changes). > - QR can hold the axle *better* because of the angle of the dropout--the > chain isn't just pulling the wheel straight in the dropout, some component > of the force is going into the angled wall of the dropout. > > OK, track ends look nicer, and allow for shorter chainstays, but I'll take > forward facing horizontals eight days a week. > > Eric > > > On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 12:56 AM Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Forward-facing, semi-horizontal dropouts of olde are okay for chill >> single speed use but agree, not recommended for fixed gear because they >> tend to slip forward during either hard acceleration or hard deceleration. >> With track ends, the alignment screws prevent this. That said - I don't >> think any modern Riv is going to attract very many fixed gear riders! >> Bottom bracket is way too low, for starters >> >> >> On Saturday, 15 July 2023 at 21:32:35 UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote: >> >>> Hmmmm? I don't know why you say that. >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 9:57 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> If Riv wants to sell singlespeed frames to the singlespeed market it's >>>> going to be with track ends. Most fixie folks wouldn't accept >>>> forward-facing horizontal dropouts. >>>> >>>> On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 7:52:29 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was just flipping through the Tour De France: Centennial history and >>>>> looking at 1920s and early 1930s photos; the bikes seem to have multiple >>>>> clusters, perhaps just 2 cogs, on each side of the hub. >>>>> >>>>> I couldn't find a photo of the Roaduno; can anyone post a link or a >>>>> picture? >>>>> >>>>> Didn't someone say it has track ends? I wonder why Rivendell didn't >>>>> make the bike with horizontal dropouts; those make more sense for >>>>> derailleur use without compromising derailleurless use; in fact, I find >>>>> horizontals easier for fixed chain length drivetrains. Or perhaps track >>>>> ends but a removable derailleur hanger. Oh well, I won't be interested as >>>>> Rivendelll road bikes have tubing too stout for my taste, but it's >>>>> interesting to hear about the possible drivetrain varieties. >>>>> >>>>> Me, I say bring back club-type IGHs. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 5:32 PM Peter Adler <divis...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ... If someone uses a flip-flop wheel, with mounting for a track cog >>>>>> on one side and a freewheel on the other, why shouldn't the freewheel be >>>>>> a >>>>>> multigear freewheel, if the wheel's dished to allow it? Then you'd need >>>>>> a >>>>>> frame-mounted hanger (or a derailleur-mounted add-on hanger) to mount >>>>>> the >>>>>> "multi-cog negotiation mechanism". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Peter Adler >>>>>> Berkeley, CA/USA >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 4:01:03 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I keep forgetting about the dangling hanger. Such a silly thing to >>>>>> have added IMO, particularly if 120 spaced. Admittedly I don't >>>>>> understand >>>>>> the attraction to the 3-by-1 drivetrain, but regardless, a regular >>>>>> vertical-dropout bike is well suited to that already. It's not a huge >>>>>> visual impact, but it shouldn't be there in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2c0efcbd-72e8-4275-9603-8e61ca90516bn%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2c0efcbd-72e8-4275-9603-8e61ca90516bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Patrick Moore >>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5b2fd24f-0569-4639-8697-3778fff2aa8fn%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5b2fd24f-0569-4639-8697-3778fff2aa8fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cb21b20c-9e66-44c2-b0de-efca9cfee805n%40googlegroups.com.
