Here's an example of an extra long MTB, Esker's Hayduke. I think there's a shorter version but this one is definitely long.
Will On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 2:11 AM iamkeith <keithhar...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hoch, when you say you "got hung up," did you mean when riding a Jones > LWB, or a Clem or other Rivendell model? Your post brings up some thoughts. > > Like Tim, I got an early Clem, thinking it would be an updated, > proper-fitting version of an analog 80s or 90s mountain bike - because > that's how it was initially concieved and described by Grant. But I > admittedly struggled on trails, just as you describe. So it kind of > morphed into something else, for other kinds of riding. Then I got rid of > it to get a Susie. It wasn't until then that I realized how much I loved > that Clem and NEEDED a bike like that. I was lucky to get it back. > > Different tools for different tasks. But along the lines of Bill's > comments, Riv likely does not care about the kind of riding or task you're > talking about: Conquering slickrock trails, big "drops," riding through > scree fields (rock gardens) rather than carrying your bike over them,. I > think Riv makes it pretty clear that tgey don't subscribe to the mainstream > sports marketing view that wild places are our playground, so they don't > feel the need to produce that particular tool. > > If you were talking about the LWB, the interesting thing about Jones' > bikes was that, originally, he was the first to really figure out how to > make a 29er ride like a 26er (because, in the early days of 29ers, that's > what people thought bikes should ride like, but not like we remember. > Every bike on the market prior to time was basically a geometric clone of > every other bike. Jones basically simulated that by cramming the big > wheels into as SHORT AS POSSIBLE of a wheelbase, by bending the seat tube > and re-shaping thr stays, and then changing the steering geometry to work > with the bigger wheel diameter and a rigid fork. All features that are now > commonplace. > > The Jones LWB bikes were the result of a much later epiphany, that closely > mirrored Grant's from a timing standpoint, considering things like balance > and better rider body position, comfort, and fore-aft weighting. The > "riding IN the bike, not ON it" metaphor. Again, the result might not be > perfect for everything, but I think it is revolutionary. (Disclaimer: I > have the original, short Jones 29er and still enjoy it.) > > The real revolution to me though, is that these two companies (and, > arguably some innovations by Surly), created a permission structure for > others not to be afraid to try new ideas and geometries, and to break away > from the copy-cat mindset. That's why mountain bike design is still now > evolving rapidly, while road bike design just adopts new gimicks and > buzzwords to sell you something that, functionally, hasn't advanced for 40 > years. (Unless, like me, you do enjoy longer chainstays and longer, > slacker front ends.) You might remember how, before Jones, mountain bike > industry "experts" used to lambast anything that wasn't familiar. Whereas, > now, journals like Radavist seek out and celebrate new ideas. > > I don't know who else dabbles with long chainstays though. Vassago - also > from the early days of 29ers - comes to mind as a company that approached > the problem differently than Jones, and were skewered and criticized to no > end for having the audacity to lengthen chainstays and wheelbases - to the > point that they eventually threw in the towel and sold the company. They > were probably on the right track years early, but closed-minded critics and > a sheepish marketplace delayed adoption and progress for a decade and a > half or more. I had to go to the wayback machine to find this, but here > they talk about that battle. It's interesting to read in retrospect. > (This was the real point of my now long-winded post.)(The other interesting > thing to look at would be the relentless vassago hate threads from > contemporary mtbr forums.): > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20090704045348/https://www.vassagocycles.com/wetcat.html > > I think it's funny the way Grant is often called a "retrogrouch" when, in > reality, he and Rivendell are one of the few companies doing NEW things, > opinions of others be damned. And Jones, on a whole other track. > > Last thought: I have several older more-traditional rivendell models, > with short stays and near-level top tubes. I'm so accustomed to them after > years of adjustments that they are good enough and I have no reason to ever > upgrade. But they look dated to my eye - not "classic." Longer stays, > sloped top tubes, more reach - just looks "right" to me. It's a bit > form-follows-function. Different strokes, I guess. > > > On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 9:37:33 PM UTC-7 Hoch in ut wrote: > >> Who’s doing long chainstays other than Jones? >> For MTB, it doesn’t work for me. I was getting hung up like crazy. >> Switchbacks and tight turns were a chore. Up and down techy Boulder >> sections, the bash guard was getting a workout. Stopped me dead in my >> tracks a few times. >> >> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 7:23:36 PM UTC-7 wboe...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Do they make you turn in your Riv card for such a question? Heresy. >>> >>> I haven't ridden a new Riv but I'll confess being put off visually by >>> the design. My 46cm-stay Schwinn passage gets close-ish and I only ride >>> that for dirt touring. It is interesting to see some small mtb makers with >>> long-chainstay models; obviously there's something there. Just not a thing >>> I need. Yet. :) >>> >>> Will >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5 pi...@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> My Roadini has a 45cm chainstay. My custom touring bike has a 43cm >>>> chainstay. When riding it doesn't make a big difference --- I'm far more >>>> sensitive to the 5mm higher BB on the Roadini. When packing it to tour 2cm >>>> is not a huge difference either. The A Homer Hilsen has a whopping 50cm >>>> chainstay. At that point it'll be difficult to pack it into a box for >>>> flying, which was why I decided against the Hilsen. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Garth got off the point with: "People do lament about modern >>>>> frame/parts design Bil" >>>>> >>>>> I am aware that there are forums for all kinds of bellyachers. The >>>>> distinction I was making is that I know of no other brand that has a forum >>>>> of users like Rivendell. In this Riv Group, the participants >>>>> self-assemble, and include those who like Rivendell in 2024, those who >>>>> have >>>>> always liked Rivendell, and those who USED to like Rivendell but now >>>>> vigorously disapprove of Rivendell. There's no other brand that gets that >>>>> kind of devotion. There's no grumpy cyclist, riding a 1984 Trek 720, >>>>> chiming in on a current forum of Trek users, wailing "to hell with your >>>>> Emonda! Trek should re-introduce investment cast lugs!" >>>>> >>>>> That was point #1. Point #2 is that even if Trek in 2024 is aware of >>>>> that pissed-of grouch on a 720, they don't give a crap about that person. >>>>> Rivendell knows that lots of their former fans now hate them. Rivendell >>>>> is >>>>> flattered that you, Garth, are so devoted to your Bombadil, and so >>>>> aggrieved and offended by their evolution that you boycott them -AND- >>>>> continuously participate on the forum to repeat how disapproving you are. >>>>> That kind of devotion is rare, and Rivendell respects and appreciates the >>>>> energy. They sometimes get weary of it when the bellyachers want to yell >>>>> at them on the phone, because they've got work to do, but on the forum, >>>>> they love it. When they built the Bombadil, they HOPED and PRAYED that it >>>>> would be loved and ridden for a century. You are well on your way to >>>>> making their dream happen. Keep it up! >>>>> >>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 4:40:42 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> People do lament about modern frame/parts design Bill, and they do it >>>>>> @Bikeforums.net in mostly the classic & vintage section :) All vintage >>>>>> makes and models are talked about and bought and sold and very much >>>>>> prized/appreciated. It is by far the most active section of BF. There's a >>>>>> couple of members who regularly post .pdf scans of old cycling >>>>>> publications >>>>>> like Bicycling! magazine of most any bike that was reviewed at the time. >>>>>> Not just bikes of course but all the vintage parts too from how they work >>>>>> to how to tear down and repair them. It's a very diverse community that >>>>>> has >>>>>> the same polarizing topics as any other places, but it's broken down into >>>>>> vary sections to make it easier to post and find posts. Lots of riders >>>>>> who >>>>>> love anything "new" and lots that don't. >>>>>> >>>>>> The demand and use for all kinds of bikes and parts Worlwide is far >>>>>> beyond anyone's means or abilities to count. Andel, likely the largest >>>>>> crank manufacturer in the World, has lots of traditional doubles and >>>>>> triples and they manufacture Riv's cranks for them. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the megastays, it is what it is. There's a whole lotta frames >>>>>> and makers to choose from. Thankfully there are other people/businesses >>>>>> interested in having steel frames(stock and custom), friction shifters >>>>>> and >>>>>> non-disc hubs made so there's very little if anything I shop @Riv for. >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 1:13:52 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I promise you that Rivendell is flattered that nice people gather >>>>>>> themselves to complain about the former-models that Riv no longer makes. >>>>>>> It shows a love for Rivendell that most other bike brands don't get. >>>>>>> There's no Specialized google group where current Specialized fans are >>>>>>> griping about Rockhoppers and Sequoias. All those nostalgic cyclists >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> bailed on Specialized entirely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What Rivendell does, and has always done, is build the bikes they >>>>>>> want to exist. If you like one and want to buy it, great. If you don't >>>>>>> like any of them and buy something else, that's also great. They (Riv) >>>>>>> does not care about making money, except to the extent they can keep the >>>>>>> lights on and pay their people a modest living wage. They do not care >>>>>>> about growth. Actually, they probably have made up their minds that >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> can't grow. They know exactly how many bikes they can afford to sell, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> they plan out making that many bikes. That very limited number of >>>>>>> bikes is >>>>>>> always going to be "whatever they feel like making". They count on the >>>>>>> fact that somebody is going to buy them, and it usually works out for >>>>>>> them. The bikes they feel like making are bikes that don't exist >>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>> else and/or have never been made before. When they made the Saluki >>>>>>> circa >>>>>>> 2007, bikes like the Saluki didn't exist. Today, bikes like the Saluki >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> exist, so Riv doesn't have to make them. The fact that some Riv-fans >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> nostalgic for former models is touching, but they don't make nostalgia >>>>>>> models. If you want a short wheelbase Rivendell, buy a Crust, ride the >>>>>>> heck >>>>>>> out of it, and be happy. That's what Riv would tell you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Roaduno is the classic, IMO. They love the idea of a purpose >>>>>>> built 3x1 road bike. Nobody...not a single person on earth is pounding >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> their keyboard complaining that it's hard to find a purpose built 3x1 >>>>>>> road >>>>>>> bike. There is NO demand for it, but Riv is making it anyway, because >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> feel like it. If you buy it, great. If you don't, they hope you find >>>>>>> something else that you do want to buy. It's perfectly logical for you >>>>>>> nostalgic Riv-fans to gripe "they couldve taken that Roaduno money and >>>>>>> did >>>>>>> a run of traditional short-wheelbase Atlantis!!!!" Yep, they could >>>>>>> have. >>>>>>> That's not what they felt like doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My advice to the disappointed is to just let Riv be Riv. Seek out >>>>>>> the bikes you like, buy them and ride them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 9:49:54 AM UTC-8 jrst...@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like the bit longer chain stays of my Sam and Saluki as well but >>>>>>>> that is as long as I need. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 12:01 PM Tim Bantham <tba...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I can relate to this. For me there are pros and cons. For example, >>>>>>>>> the Clem I bought a few years ago was intended to be an analog >>>>>>>>> mountain >>>>>>>>> bike. I found the long chainstays to be a liability for east coast >>>>>>>>> single >>>>>>>>> track. This is especially the case with tight turns and the need to >>>>>>>>> carry >>>>>>>>> the bike. If I had to do it all over for the type of MTB riding that >>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>> available to me I would go for a bike with shorter stays and a lighter >>>>>>>>> frame. That said, I love the longer chainstays on my Sam as compared >>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>> regular road/gravel bike. Definitely noticeable on the descents. I >>>>>>>>> ride my >>>>>>>>> Sam on dirt roads quite a bit and the long stay really shines in that >>>>>>>>> situation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/P5Cfxk3lrN8/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email >>>>>>>>> to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c173cbd3-3653-48fc-aee1-01d06e8fa243n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c173cbd3-3653-48fc-aee1-01d06e8fa243n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/P5Cfxk3lrN8/unsubscribe > . > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0a250200-2b2c-4ae9-8756-7f41e24deb6fn%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0a250200-2b2c-4ae9-8756-7f41e24deb6fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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