I’ve not yet bitten the bullet to buy a Rivendell. I am very much interested in owning one, and I really enjoy this discussion group as I do Classic Rendevous. First, I would like to get a Waterford built Rivendell. I currently own a Waterford 1200 with 753 tubing and I love it. The widest tires that I can fit on it are 700 x 26. I have both clincher and tubular wheel sets for it and the tubulars are more comfortable. I use Grand Bois Cerf Blue label clinchers. They ride well enough but I always return to the tubulars when I ride the Waterford.
For your information here’s a list of my bicycles with chain stay length measurements (as measured from center of the BB to the center of the rear wheel axle — midway in the dropout if adjustable. The bicycle sizes are measured along the seat tube CtoC 1964 58 cm Jack Taylor Sports 45.0 1966 56 cm Raleigh Sports 3-speed 45.0 1973 56 cm Raleigh RRA 42.5 1978 58 cm Raleigh Pro V 42.0 1972/73 56 cm Schwinn (Panasonic) World Voyageur 44.0 1973 58 cm Schwinn Paramount P15 45.0 1977 58 cm Trek TX500 44.5 1972 58 cm Masi GC 42.0 1983 58 cm Masi GC 42.0 mid-1990s 58 cm Davidson Discovery 44.0 1996 58 cm Mercian 44.0 1996 58 cm Waterford 1200 42.0 Russell Duncan Saratoga, WY On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 1:39:45 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote: > "That said, some valid ideas veer into the direction of overdoing a good > thing. Remember double top tubes on 57 cm Sam Hillbornes? Those never > looked right to me, and the whole concept has quietly disappeared except on > the largest frames. And yet, for a while double tubes were on half the > bikes they sold." > > LOLOLOL!! Not only do I remember. I just answered an off-list email, > describing this thread, and I told them the chain stay complaining > resembles the same level of handwringing that happened when Grant put a > double top tube on ONE medium sized Sam Hillborne (it was the 56cm). When > he did it, Grant said it was for fun and said it wasn't necessary, but a > fringe of conventionally minded former Riv fans were absolutely FREAKED > about it. The other "culprit" size was the 52cm Bombadil. Rivendell > probably made fewer than 10 52cm Bombadil's, but man, were people > hysterical about it. The TALL (100PBH) Riv users loved their double top > tubes, and the hand wringers declared that was OK, but that 56cm > Hillborne!?! that was TOO FAR!. And now, in the rear view mirror, it's > half the bikes they sold? Spoiler alert: it was not half the bikes they > sold. Spoiler alert #2: two Atlantis sizes and one Hilsen size still have > double top tubes. The Hillborne doesn't, but it's made with stouter > "Silver" tubing which is stouter. That's another cause for handwringing > for the hand wringers. > > I own a 2009 56cm Hillborne with a single top tube, and I like it very > much. I did not want to buy one with a double top tube when they were > offered. To those people reading this thread who own a double top tube > Hillborne: your bike is excellent, despite what somebody else may say about > it. You get to decide whether or not your bike looks right or wrong. > > Bill Lindsay > El Cerrito, CA > > On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 9:52:22 AM UTC-8 mathiass...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Bill wrote: >> >> Grant's tastes keep evolving. >> >> That's one way to put it. >> >> The thing with Grant is that he HAS ideas, and that he gets excited about >> them, and that he's put himself in a position to do something about it. >> This is all positive and deserving of respect. Anyone who collects a >> monthly paycheck would do well to picture what it would be like to make >> your income by selling things. Whether it's $4k new bicycles or $8 loaves >> of artisan bread, do some math and you'll come away with a lot of respect >> for people who put their liivelihood on the line like that. >> >> That said, some valid ideas veer into the direction of overdoing a good >> thing. Remember double top tubes on 57 cm Sam Hillbornes? Those never >> looked right to me, and the whole concept has quietly disappeared except on >> the largest frames. And yet, for a while double tubes were on half the >> bikes they sold. >> >> In five years, the dust will have settled on chainstays, and we'll >> probably find them still super long on Clems, and less so on Sams and >> Homers. >> >> Rivendell's philosophy has influenced my riding in a number of ways, and >> made it more enjoyable, for which I'm grateful. That doesn't mean I'm on >> board with everything they do. >> >> This has been a useful thread to me, because the two counterarguments >> against long chain stays -- maneuverability & being able to lift the front >> wheel -- hadn't occurred to me. I don't do real off-road riding but I do >> deal with curbs a lot, so that's good to know. >> >> cheers -mathias >> >> On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 12:26:11 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote: >> >>> All those wanting Rivendell to re-release bikes they made 10 years ago >>> do NOT have to turn in their Riv card, but they ARE outing themselves as >>> PAWNS of the T&D IC. Resist the pressures of the Time and Date Industrial >>> Complex! >>> >>> If you don't get the reference then you are neither a blagh nor a Bike >>> Snob reader and SHOULD have your Riv card revoked. :) >>> >>> BL card-carrying in EC >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 6:23:36 PM UTC-8 Will Boericke wrote: >>> >>>> Do they make you turn in your Riv card for such a question? Heresy. >>>> >>>> I haven't ridden a new Riv but I'll confess being put off visually by >>>> the design. My 46cm-stay Schwinn passage gets close-ish and I only ride >>>> that for dirt touring. It is interesting to see some small mtb makers >>>> with >>>> long-chainstay models; obviously there's something there. Just not a >>>> thing >>>> I need. Yet. :) >>>> >>>> Will >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 2:45:44 PM UTC-5 pi...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> My Roadini has a 45cm chainstay. My custom touring bike has a 43cm >>>>> chainstay. When riding it doesn't make a big difference --- I'm far more >>>>> sensitive to the 5mm higher BB on the Roadini. When packing it to tour >>>>> 2cm >>>>> is not a huge difference either. The A Homer Hilsen has a whopping 50cm >>>>> chainstay. At that point it'll be difficult to pack it into a box for >>>>> flying, which was why I decided against the Hilsen. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Garth got off the point with: "People do lament about modern >>>>>> frame/parts design Bil" >>>>>> >>>>>> I am aware that there are forums for all kinds of bellyachers. The >>>>>> distinction I was making is that I know of no other brand that has a >>>>>> forum >>>>>> of users like Rivendell. In this Riv Group, the participants >>>>>> self-assemble, and include those who like Rivendell in 2024, those who >>>>>> have >>>>>> always liked Rivendell, and those who USED to like Rivendell but now >>>>>> vigorously disapprove of Rivendell. There's no other brand that gets >>>>>> that >>>>>> kind of devotion. There's no grumpy cyclist, riding a 1984 Trek 720, >>>>>> chiming in on a current forum of Trek users, wailing "to hell with your >>>>>> Emonda! Trek should re-introduce investment cast lugs!" >>>>>> >>>>>> That was point #1. Point #2 is that even if Trek in 2024 is aware of >>>>>> that pissed-of grouch on a 720, they don't give a crap about that >>>>>> person. >>>>>> Rivendell knows that lots of their former fans now hate them. >>>>>> Rivendell >>>>>> is flattered that you, Garth, are so devoted to your Bombadil, and so >>>>>> aggrieved and offended by their evolution that you boycott them -AND- >>>>>> continuously participate on the forum to repeat how disapproving you >>>>>> are. >>>>>> That kind of devotion is rare, and Rivendell respects and appreciates >>>>>> the >>>>>> energy. They sometimes get weary of it when the bellyachers want to >>>>>> yell >>>>>> at them on the phone, because they've got work to do, but on the forum, >>>>>> they love it. When they built the Bombadil, they HOPED and PRAYED that >>>>>> it >>>>>> would be loved and ridden for a century. You are well on your way to >>>>>> making their dream happen. Keep it up! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 4:40:42 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People do lament about modern frame/parts design Bill, and they do >>>>>>> it @Bikeforums.net in mostly the classic & vintage section :) All >>>>>>> vintage >>>>>>> makes and models are talked about and bought and sold and very much >>>>>>> prized/appreciated. It is by far the most active section of BF. There's >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> couple of members who regularly post .pdf scans of old cycling >>>>>>> publications >>>>>>> like Bicycling! magazine of most any bike that was reviewed at the >>>>>>> time. >>>>>>> Not just bikes of course but all the vintage parts too from how they >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> to how to tear down and repair them. It's a very diverse community that >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> the same polarizing topics as any other places, but it's broken down >>>>>>> into >>>>>>> vary sections to make it easier to post and find posts. Lots of riders >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> love anything "new" and lots that don't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The demand and use for all kinds of bikes and parts Worlwide is far >>>>>>> beyond anyone's means or abilities to count. Andel, likely the largest >>>>>>> crank manufacturer in the World, has lots of traditional doubles and >>>>>>> triples and they manufacture Riv's cranks for them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the megastays, it is what it is. There's a whole lotta frames >>>>>>> and makers to choose from. Thankfully there are other people/businesses >>>>>>> interested in having steel frames(stock and custom), friction shifters >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> non-disc hubs made so there's very little if anything I shop @Riv for. >>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 1:13:52 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I promise you that Rivendell is flattered that nice people gather >>>>>>>> themselves to complain about the former-models that Riv no longer >>>>>>>> makes. >>>>>>>> It shows a love for Rivendell that most other bike brands don't get. >>>>>>>> There's no Specialized google group where current Specialized fans >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> griping about Rockhoppers and Sequoias. All those nostalgic cyclists >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> bailed on Specialized entirely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What Rivendell does, and has always done, is build the bikes they >>>>>>>> want to exist. If you like one and want to buy it, great. If you >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> like any of them and buy something else, that's also great. They >>>>>>>> (Riv) >>>>>>>> does not care about making money, except to the extent they can keep >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> lights on and pay their people a modest living wage. They do not care >>>>>>>> about growth. Actually, they probably have made up their minds that >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can't grow. They know exactly how many bikes they can afford to sell, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> they plan out making that many bikes. That very limited number of >>>>>>>> bikes is >>>>>>>> always going to be "whatever they feel like making". They count on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fact that somebody is going to buy them, and it usually works out for >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> The bikes they feel like making are bikes that don't exist anywhere >>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>> and/or have never been made before. When they made the Saluki circa >>>>>>>> 2007, >>>>>>>> bikes like the Saluki didn't exist. Today, bikes like the Saluki do >>>>>>>> exist, >>>>>>>> so Riv doesn't have to make them. The fact that some Riv-fans are >>>>>>>> nostalgic for former models is touching, but they don't make nostalgia >>>>>>>> models. If you want a short wheelbase Rivendell, buy a Crust, ride the >>>>>>>> heck >>>>>>>> out of it, and be happy. That's what Riv would tell you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Roaduno is the classic, IMO. They love the idea of a purpose >>>>>>>> built 3x1 road bike. Nobody...not a single person on earth is >>>>>>>> pounding on >>>>>>>> their keyboard complaining that it's hard to find a purpose built 3x1 >>>>>>>> road >>>>>>>> bike. There is NO demand for it, but Riv is making it anyway, because >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> feel like it. If you buy it, great. If you don't, they hope you find >>>>>>>> something else that you do want to buy. It's perfectly logical for >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> nostalgic Riv-fans to gripe "they couldve taken that Roaduno money and >>>>>>>> did >>>>>>>> a run of traditional short-wheelbase Atlantis!!!!" Yep, they could >>>>>>>> have. >>>>>>>> That's not what they felt like doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My advice to the disappointed is to just let Riv be Riv. Seek out >>>>>>>> the bikes you like, buy them and ride them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 9:49:54 AM UTC-8 jrst...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I like the bit longer chain stays of my Sam and Saluki as well but >>>>>>>>> that is as long as I need. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 12:01 PM Tim Bantham <tba...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can relate to this. For me there are pros and cons. For >>>>>>>>>> example, the Clem I bought a few years ago was intended to be an >>>>>>>>>> analog >>>>>>>>>> mountain bike. I found the long chainstays to be a liability for >>>>>>>>>> east coast >>>>>>>>>> single track. This is especially the case with tight turns and the >>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>>> carry the bike. If I had to do it all over for the type of MTB >>>>>>>>>> riding that >>>>>>>>>> I have available to me I would go for a bike with shorter stays and >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> lighter frame. That said, I love the longer chainstays on my Sam as >>>>>>>>>> compared to a regular road/gravel bike. Definitely noticeable on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> descents. I ride my Sam on dirt roads quite a bit and the long stay >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> shines in that situation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic >>>>>>>>>> in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/P5Cfxk3lrN8/unsubscribe >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email >>>>>>>>>> to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c173cbd3-3653-48fc-aee1-01d06e8fa243n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c173cbd3-3653-48fc-aee1-01d06e8fa243n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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