If I stay seated & spin (long stays) I do not spin out on steep / slightly rocky climbs. Stand up & you are done. I never stand.:)
Sent from my iPhone On Mar 7, 2024, at 6:12 PM, Hoch in ut <cacka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Keith, I’m assuming you’re in the western Wyoming area? I actually bought a Jabberwocky back in 2010 or so. To test out the Wet Cat geo. Bike rode nice but it wasn’t for me. Ironically, I thought it excelled on the descents. Climbing, due to the long chainstays, did not fare so well. Note that the Jabberwocky was SS only (unless you got the geared hanger from them). Standing and climbing steep trails meant constant spin out. I think had I built a Bandersbatch, it would’ve performed better.
I’m trying to remember the chainstay length. Wasn’t it close to 18”?
On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 3:49:11 PM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:
I'm beating a dead horse here, drifting off-topic, and not really even answering questions that anyone has asked - but adding this excerpt for thread posterity in case I want to find it again. I referred to Vassago's ill-fated attempt to popularize long chainstays in my first post, but this is a better web archive reference and the one I was thinking of. It would have had a picture of a hill climb competition motorcycle, and includes their explanation, at the bottom, of why THEY chose to do it - which was prioritizing climbing. That's why it has always stuck with me. I'm not far from Hoch and Utah and that kind of rockier trail riding, but Vassago's explanation really jives with my own reality. EVERY SINGLE RIDE here, in the mountains of wyoming (where we live at the bottom of the valleys and go UP only to recreate), begins with a long, steep climb in thin mountain air that accounts for 3/4 or more of the total ride duration.
THE ORIGINAL Vassago WetCat GeometryThe controversial 29er geometry approach that we were scorned for back in '05 seams to be more and more common as we enter 2010. We are OK with that because it means big wheels have come into their own, and the bigger companies are catching on. We stand by our WetCat design and haven't changed a thing. Here's the pitch from "back in the day".
When refining our exclusive WetCat Geometry, We peed in the eye of tradition and ignored the number-obsessed skeptics. Our long wheelbases, steep seat tubes and slack head tubes made us true blasphemers in the frame design world. As the critics baulked, we honed our angles and tube diameters, to fully utilized the big wheels we are so faithful to. Now, with so many podium finishes under our belt, and a legion of happy Vassago riders, we confidently say; - 29ers should NOT try to handle like a 26" bike..They're 29ers.
- 29 inch wheels are the Cat's Pajamas.
- Long chainstays are the Bee's Knees.
- It's all about the rider's balance in relation to the wheels, not just numbers on paper.
- Slack doesn't have to mean slow.
- 1996 Norba geometry theory dose not apply to 29ers
- The Easter Bunny and Santy Claus are the same guy.
So what can WetCat do for you? Climbing
Climb the nastiest technical sections like a wet cat climbs the drapes a grandma's house. (what you never did that?) Traction to spare, and a neutralized rider position will have you cleaning sections you never expected, and have your buddies buyin' you rounds when the pedalin's done. Descending
Stability is your best friend when speed is what you're looking for. The centrifugal force of fast spinning big hoops and the long, steel frame offer confidence to rival a full squishy bike at speed. Comfort
9 to 5 is just plain wrong. For those of you who's therapy is an nice epic ride on a Sunday morning, we have your prescription. Between the balanced geometry and the unrivaled ridability of steel, a vassago will keep you cumfy in the saddle as long as your legs can keep pushing. Balance
Where it all comes together. Our unique frame geometries all work together to provide a perfectly balanced 29er that feels like no other 29er you've ridden. Forget the many tallish, slow handling 29ers that are becoming all to common. We center the riders weight between the wheel centers for a distinctive feel of riding IN the bike, not ON TOP of big tall wheels. Test ride a Vassago and then test ride anything else with twice the price tag. You'll see what we mean.
A word about chainstays.Generally speaking, we have noticed the media and thus the general opinion is that the shorter the chainstays, the better. Like we have said all along, our dedicated approach to designing 29ers tells us this is bullocks. While short stays are great on a 26" bike and enhance the characteristics of that type of bike, our bikes are built to climb. ![]() Since most of your time, blood, sweat and tears involved in a day long epic are spent climbing, we focus on that. The WetCat geometry further enhance the climbing benefits of the 29" wheels by aligning the rider's COG (center of gravity) inside the rear axle line when on a steep accent. To use another motorsport analogy, dirt bikes are converted to hill climb monsters by adding more power and stretching the rear wheel further out. When applied to mountain bikes, this means a more relaxed climbing position that takes the focus off of balancing the bike and lets you put all your energy into putting the power down. The secondary benefit of using longer stays that you can get away with on 29ers is the all day comfort factor. Proper butting profiles in a longer steel chainstay offers a level of compliance like no other On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 2:21:35 PM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
Russell
Your collection presents like an afficionado of vintage and vintage inspired "classic" road bikes. If your hypothetical Rivendell is going to be "at home" in that collection, it won't be something you buy from Rivendell currently. It's clear to me that you'll want to find a second hand Rambouillet, which are well-regarded, particularly to fit that classic, traditional, road silhouette. I hope you find one when you're ready.
Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA
On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 11:32:20 AM UTC-8 Russell Duncan wrote:
I’ve not yet bitten the bullet to buy a Rivendell. I am very much interested in owning one, and I really enjoy this discussion group as I do Classic Rendevous. First, I would like to get a Waterford built Rivendell. I currently own a Waterford 1200 with 753 tubing and I love it. The widest tires that I can fit on it are 700 x 26. I have both clincher and tubular wheel sets for it and the tubulars are more comfortable. I use Grand Bois Cerf Blue label clinchers. They ride well enough but I always return to the tubulars when I ride the Waterford.
For your information here’s a list of my bicycles with chain stay length measurements (as measured from center of the BB to the center of the rear wheel axle — midway in the dropout if adjustable. The bicycle sizes are measured along the seat tube CtoC
1964 58 cm Jack Taylor Sports 45.0
1966 56 cm Raleigh Sports 3-speed 45.0 1973 56 cm Raleigh RRA 42.5 1978 58 cm Raleigh Pro V 42.0
1972/73 56 cm Schwinn (Panasonic) World Voyageur 44.0 1973 58 cm Schwinn Paramount P15 45.0
1977 58 cm Trek TX500 44.5
1972 58 cm Masi GC 42.0 1983 58 cm Masi GC 42.0
mid-1990s 58 cm Davidson Discovery 44.0 1996 58 cm Mercian 44.0 1996 58 cm Waterford 1200 42.0
Russell Duncan Saratoga, WY
On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 1:39:45 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:
"That said, some valid ideas veer into the direction of overdoing a good thing. Remember double top tubes on 57 cm Sam Hillbornes? Those never looked right to me, and the whole concept has quietly disappeared except on the largest frames. And yet, for a while double tubes were on half the bikes they sold."
LOLOLOL!! Not only do I remember. I just answered an off-list email, describing this thread, and I told them the chain stay complaining resembles the same level of handwringing that happened when Grant put a double top tube on ONE medium sized Sam Hillborne (it was the 56cm). When he did it, Grant said it was for fun and said it wasn't necessary, but a fringe of conventionally minded former Riv fans were absolutely FREAKED about it. The other "culprit" size was the 52cm Bombadil. Rivendell probably made fewer than 10 52cm Bombadil's, but man, were people hysterical about it. The TALL (100PBH) Riv users loved their double top tubes, and the hand wringers declared that was OK, but that 56cm Hillborne!?! that was TOO FAR!. And now, in the rear view mirror, it's half the bikes they sold? Spoiler alert: it was not half the bikes they sold. Spoiler alert #2: two Atlantis sizes and one Hilsen size still have double top tubes. The Hillborne doesn't, but it's made with stouter "Silver" tubing which is stouter. That's another cause for handwringing for the hand wringers.
I own a 2009 56cm Hillborne with a single top tube, and I like it very much. I did not want to buy one with a double top tube when they were offered. To those people reading this thread who own a double top tube Hillborne: your bike is excellent, despite what somebody else may say about it. You get to decide whether or not your bike looks right or wrong.
Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA
Bill wrote:
>>
Grant's tastes keep evolving.
That's one way to put it.
The thing with Grant is that he HAS ideas, and that he gets excited about them, and that he's put himself in a position to do something about it. This is all positive and deserving of respect. Anyone who collects a monthly paycheck would do well to picture what it would be like to make your income by selling things. Whether it's $4k new bicycles or $8 loaves of artisan bread, do some math and you'll come away with a lot of respect for people who put their liivelihood on the line like that.
That said, some valid ideas veer into the direction of overdoing a good thing. Remember double top tubes on 57 cm Sam Hillbornes? Those never looked right to me, and the whole concept has quietly disappeared except on the largest frames. And yet, for a while double tubes were on half the bikes they sold.
In five years, the dust will have settled on chainstays, and we'll probably find them still super long on Clems, and less so on Sams and Homers.
Rivendell's philosophy has influenced my riding in a number of ways, and made it more enjoyable, for which I'm grateful. That doesn't mean I'm on board with everything they do.
This has been a useful thread to me, because the two counterarguments against long chain stays -- maneuverability & being able to lift the front wheel -- hadn't occurred to me. I don't do real off-road riding but I do deal with curbs a lot, so that's good to know.
cheers -mathias
On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 12:26:11 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:
All those wanting Rivendell to re-release bikes they made 10 years ago do NOT have to turn in their Riv card, but they ARE outing themselves as PAWNS of the T&D IC. Resist the pressures of the Time and Date Industrial Complex!
If you don't get the reference then you are neither a blagh nor a Bike Snob reader and SHOULD have your Riv card revoked. :)
BL card-carrying in EC
On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 6:23:36 PM UTC-8 Will Boericke wrote:
Do they make you turn in your Riv card for such a question? Heresy.
I haven't ridden a new Riv but I'll confess being put off visually by the design. My 46cm-stay Schwinn passage gets close-ish and I only ride that for dirt touring. It is interesting to see some small mtb makers with long-chainstay models; obviously there's something there. Just not a thing I need. Yet. :)
Will
My Roadini has a 45cm chainstay. My custom touring bike has a 43cm chainstay. When riding it doesn't make a big difference --- I'm far more sensitive to the 5mm higher BB on the Roadini. When packing it to tour 2cm is not a huge difference either. The A Homer Hilsen has a whopping 50cm chainstay. At that point it'll be difficult to pack it into a box for flying, which was why I decided against the Hilsen.
On Wednesday, March 6, 2024 at 10:24:27 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote:
Garth got off the point with: "People do lament about modern frame/parts design Bil"
I am aware that there are forums for all kinds of bellyachers. The distinction I was making is that I know of no other brand that has a forum of users like Rivendell. In this Riv Group, the participants self-assemble, and include those who like Rivendell in 2024, those who have always liked Rivendell, and those who USED to like Rivendell but now vigorously disapprove of Rivendell. There's no other brand that gets that kind of devotion. There's no grumpy cyclist, riding a 1984 Trek 720, chiming in on a current forum of Trek users, wailing "to hell with your Emonda! Trek should re-introduce investment cast lugs!"
That was point #1. Point #2 is that even if Trek in 2024 is aware of that pissed-of grouch on a 720, they don't give a crap about that person. Rivendell knows that lots of their former fans now hate them. Rivendell is flattered that you, Garth, are so devoted to your Bombadil, and so aggrieved and offended by their evolution that you boycott them -AND- continuously participate on the forum to repeat how disapproving you are. That kind of devotion is rare, and Rivendell respects and appreciates the energy. They sometimes get weary of it when the bellyachers want to yell at them on the phone, because they've got work to do, but on the forum, they love it. When they built the Bombadil, they HOPED and PRAYED that it would be loved and ridden for a century. You are well on your way to making their dream happen. Keep it up!
Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA
On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 4:40:42 PM UTC-8 Garth wrote:
People do lament about modern frame/parts design Bill, and they do it @Bikeforums.net in mostly the classic & vintage section :) All vintage makes and models are talked about and bought and sold and very much prized/appreciated. It is by far the most active section of BF. There's a couple of members who regularly post .pdf scans of old cycling publications like Bicycling! magazine of most any bike that was reviewed at the time. Not just bikes of course but all the vintage parts too from how they work to how to tear down and repair them. It's a very diverse community that has the same polarizing topics as any other places, but it's broken down into vary sections to make it easier to post and find posts. Lots of riders who love anything "new" and lots that don't.
The demand and use for all kinds of bikes and parts Worlwide is far beyond anyone's means or abilities to count. Andel, likely the largest crank manufacturer in the World, has lots of traditional doubles and triples and they manufacture Riv's cranks for them.
As for the megastays, it is what it is. There's a whole lotta frames and makers to choose from. Thankfully there are other people/businesses interested in having steel frames(stock and custom), friction shifters and non-disc hubs made so there's very little if anything I shop @Riv for.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 1:13:52 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:
I promise you that Rivendell is flattered that nice people gather themselves to complain about the former-models that Riv no longer makes. It shows a love for Rivendell that most other bike brands don't get. There's no Specialized google group where current Specialized fans are griping about Rockhoppers and Sequoias. All those nostalgic cyclists have bailed on Specialized entirely.
What Rivendell does, and has always done, is build the bikes they want to exist. If you like one and want to buy it, great. If you don't like any of them and buy something else, that's also great. They (Riv) does not care about making money, except to the extent they can keep the lights on and pay their people a modest living wage. They do not care about growth. Actually, they probably have made up their minds that they can't grow. They know exactly how many bikes they can afford to sell, and they plan out making that many bikes. That very limited number of bikes is always going to be "whatever they feel like making". They count on the fact that somebody is going to buy them, and it usually works out for them. The bikes they feel like making are bikes that don't exist anywhere else and/or have never been made before. When they made the Saluki circa 2007, bikes like the Saluki didn't exist. Today, bikes like the Saluki do exist, so Riv doesn't have to make them. The fact that some Riv-fans are nostalgic for former models is touching, but they don't make nostalgia models. If you want a short wheelbase Rivendell, buy a Crust, ride the heck out of it, and be happy. That's what Riv would tell you.
The Roaduno is the classic, IMO. They love the idea of a purpose built 3x1 road bike. Nobody...not a single person on earth is pounding on their keyboard complaining that it's hard to find a purpose built 3x1 road bike. There is NO demand for it, but Riv is making it anyway, because they feel like it. If you buy it, great. If you don't, they hope you find something else that you do want to buy. It's perfectly logical for you nostalgic Riv-fans to gripe "they couldve taken that Roaduno money and did a run of traditional short-wheelbase Atlantis!!!!" Yep, they could have. That's not what they felt like doing.
My advice to the disappointed is to just let Riv be Riv. Seek out the bikes you like, buy them and ride them.
Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA
I like the bit longer chain stays of my Sam and Saluki as well but that is as long as I need. I can relate to this. For me there are pros and cons. For example, the Clem I bought a few years ago was intended to be an analog mountain bike. I found the long chainstays to be a liability for east coast single track. This is especially the case with tight turns and the need to carry the bike. If I had to do it all over for the type of MTB riding that I have available to me I would go for a bike with shorter stays and a lighter frame. That said, I love the longer chainstays on my Sam as compared to a regular road/gravel bike. Definitely noticeable on the descents. I ride my Sam on dirt roads quite a bit and the long stay really shines in that situation.
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