Chris, For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a tank.... Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for other reasons also..
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 > What are the issues with tankless water heaters? I have heard them > described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes > what they are. They are very popular where I live. Any info? Thanks, > Chris > > > On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to >> charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always >> the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water >> heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. >> >> An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop >> if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating >> water >> with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to >> add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground >> source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on >> extremely >> efficient mini split air source pumps. >> >> I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows >> one to have more options. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient >>> are >>> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for >>> about >>> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, >>> and >>> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know >>> all >>> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be >>> a >>> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper >>> involved >>> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but >>> think >>> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly >>> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more >>> energy. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake >>> <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org >>>> wrote: >>>> Daniel, >>>> >>>> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an >>>> air >>>> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems >>>> could >>>> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >>>> Content-Language: en-us >>>> >>>> >>>> Drake, >>>> >>>> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? >>>> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just >>>> help >>>> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the >>>> breakeven >>>> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >>>> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, >>>> then >>>> Iââ¬â¢d say itââ¬â¢s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not >>>> an >>>> all-electric >>>> off-grid building.) >>>> >>>> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by >>>> with >>>> a >>>> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, >>>> OR >>>> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on >>>> the >>>> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the >>>> situation. >>>> >>>> Here are two brand names that I know of. >>>> Vertical mount: renewability >>>> Horizontal mount: ecodrain >>>> >>>> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just >>>> though it may be worth consideration. >>>> >>>> With Regards, >>>> >>>> Daniel Young, >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On >>>> Behalf Of *Drake >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>> >>>> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >>>> plumbing >>>> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I >>>> think we need a different water heating strategy. >>>> >>>> Thank you all! >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >>>> Content-Language: en-US >>>> >>>> This is what I came up with: >>>> >>>> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >>>> >>>> Water Temp out =Ãâ 120 >>>> >>>> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >>>> >>>> delta T = 70F >>>> >>>> m =Ãâ mass flow rate.Ãâ ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals >>>> per >>>> person >>>> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Ãâ 167lbs/day/person >>>> >>>> cp =Ãâ 1 BTU/lb-degree F >>>> >>>> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >>>> >>>> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume >>>> = >>>> .86)Ãâ =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >>>> >>>> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >>>> kWh/month >>>> >>>> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >>>> >>>> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. >>>> They >>>> approached it another way with assuming run times. >>>> >>>> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= >>>> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= >>>> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. >>>> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. >>>> 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. >>>> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>>> >>>> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >>>> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower >>>> temp. >>>> Ãâ My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the >>>> first >>>> 2 >>>> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.Ãâ However those rates vary >>>> wildly >>>> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that >>>> needs >>>> 3 showers a day.Ãâ In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% >>>> of >>>> the >>>> total household energy load for the year.Ãâ Also, I would >>>> recommend the >>>> air >>>> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an >>>> on >>>> demand unit.Ãâ Water tanks are typically under insulated and can >>>> lose >>>> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>>> Ãâ >>>> Mike Kocsmiersky >>>> Principal >>>> Spirit Solar Inc. >>>> (413) 734-1456 >>>> Ãâ >>>> Ãâ >>>> Ãâ >>>> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com >>>> <bar...@solarips.com>] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>> Ãâ >>>> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >>>> 100 >>>> or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers >>>> are >>>> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to >>>> calculate >>>> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per >>>> gallon. >>>> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good.Ãâ >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >>>> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of >>>> power >>>> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater >>>> amount >>>> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >>>> gallon >>>> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 >>>> kWh >>>> / >>>> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft >>>> sq >>>> building. >>>> >>>> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >>>> >>>> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. >>>> I >>>> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount >>>> of >>>> hot >>>> water consumed would be the main issue. >>>> >>>> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >>>> electric >>>> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> --Ãâ >>>> Barton Churchill >>>> 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295> Ãâ >>>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>> www.solarips.com >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>> Ãâ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood >>>> Alliance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List >>>> Address: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & >>>> settings: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & >>>> etiquette: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant >>>> bios: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Christopher Warfel, >>>> PE >>>> Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>> Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ >>>> Ãâ Ãâ Ãâ (401)466-8978 >>>> <(401)%20466-8978> >>>> Ãâ >>>> [image: EEI logo] <http://entech-engineering.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Barton Churchill >>> 406.587.5295 >>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> www.solarips.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > >         Christopher Warfel, PE >       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >               (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo <http://entech-engineering.com> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
