I agree w/ Ray as most of my work is Off grid. Incorporating addition failure points ( RSD modules. optimizers ect.) for a system that is usually quite a distance from service, be it my service or the fire departments, I find the justification very hard. Ive replaced your micro inverters at 0* due to failure. Still am not to comfortable w/ them. > On Apr 30, 2020, at 11:10 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote: > > All - Ray has a good point, the discussion here is really about two different > types of systems - mainstream ongrid PV, and small scale (and a relatively > small market) offgrid PV. It's really tough to design a small offgrid system > (especially DC coupled) with rapid shutdown. I think it's just a case that > the market is so small that the manufactures aren't focusing their products > on it. Our business doesn't do much offgrid, so I'm not familiar with the > products but understand the difficulty. For ongrid PV with or without energy > storage, I still argue that MPLE or microinverters are 100% the now and > future, and fighting against that is a losing battle. > > I think we should see more and more offgrid ability coming from the big > players SolarEdge, Tesla, (maybe Enphase) etc which will all be easy to pair > with rapid shutdown enabled PV. > > August > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 7:12 AM Ray <r...@solarray.com > <mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote: > Hi Jerry; > > This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech. All of us are > constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules > that change specs every few months. We are voluntarily adopting new > technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is cost > effective and reliable. > To continue your smart phone analogy, the current situation is like forcing > people in the country to give up their hard lines, when their is only spotty > 3G service available in their area. Its not that we are Luddites; the > equipment is still not quite ready for prime time. Having some basic > exemptions for small, lower voltage systems off grid is not unreasonable. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/30/20 2:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Wrenches >> We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and >> Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was >> brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have >> 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs or >> nearby conduite. This is fact not conjecture. >> Arc fault is a fire preventer but requires nothing on the roof when using >> string level inverters. Now both RSD and arc-fault in off grid increase the >> complexity but the new charge controllers fit the arc and Tigo fixes the RSD >> issues. >> I know everyone of you learned to use a smart phone and can now adapt again >> to this new tech, we have to be leaders in this industry and not well you >> know. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector. >> Been in this industry since 1978 >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:57 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com >> <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> Hi Drake >> >> I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. >> >> But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the >> safety. >> >> The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module >> possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive process. >> >> My technique is to install the MLPE at the edges of the array, using wire >> extensions. That way at most I have to remove a single module. And Im >> working on a drop bracket which would allow better cooling and easier access >> without module removal to the MLPE, greatly reducing time to swap. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:59 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org >>> <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the >>> excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it >>> is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to >>> justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. >>> >>> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went >>> under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic >>> replacement of microinverters and optimizers. >>> >>> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown >>> requirements that are in the NEC? >>> >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote: >>> >>>> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for >>>> no measurable benefit. >>>> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible >>>> to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons >>>> of problems when commissioning systems. >>>> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd >>>> failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and >>>> system downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for >>>> the lost weeks of productivity. >>>> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. >>>> But our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm >>>> open circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the >>>> device doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features >>>> are a recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The >>>> warranty from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And >>>> that's really what our reservations about the product boil down to right >>>> now. If we're on a job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the >>>> homeowner will be the ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing >>>> it. There has to be a better option. >>>> >>>> Sky Sims >>>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz <https://ecologicalsystems.biz/> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski <coreso...@gmail.com >>>>> <mailto:coreso...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Now that 690.12 of the NEC 2017 has been in effect for several years, I >>>>> am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated >>>>> requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering >>>>> microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS >>>>> principle, and as best I can determine the Tigo TS4-F device is one of >>>>> the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others >>>>> finding? >>>>> >>>>> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. >>>>> Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> 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> t...@swnl.net > <blocked::mailto:t...@swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:t...@swnl.net> > www.SWNL.net > <blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/> > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >
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