Your last sentence is the worst sort of cop-out, Graham, and I hadn't
expected it of you. What is getting people upset is that you are
defending the indefencible (solely on political allegiance?).
I would be interested to hear one instance where the Howard government
improved our civil rights or even one that hasn't been touched. There
are plenty of examples where it has gone backward and that is erosion
not merely 'not good enough'.
Yes, there are countries that have a much worse record but that is not
the point. Every despot starts somewhere and Howard is more stealthy
than most. He probably won't progress to chopping people's arms off but
wherever he can limit the redress of the poor and those who don't fit
his model of the 'deserving' ie. rich or investors, he will.
Trudy
Graham Young wrote:
>
> Sandy,
>
> If you are determined to see a conspiracy then there is no argument I can
> mount that will convince you it doesn't exist. I regard civil rights as
> being a very fragile flower. A belief in them as a global norm is limited
> to this century, and hardly anyone talked about them more than 200 years
> ago. I don't kid myself that they are the natural state of humanity and
> that erstwhile humane countries can't slip into dictatorship - Nazi Germany,
> the birthplace of Bach, Beethoven, Goethe being a prime example. But I see
> no sign that their general existence is at risk in Australia, and while I am
> not happy with some aspects of the Government's approach to them I see no
> sign that we are about to become a police state.
>
> I don't know enough about the diversionary scheme to enter into any debate
> on it, although it is quite common for social workers etc. to recommend
> children be put into various sorts of programmes without them being found
> guilty of anything. You don't and can't put everything to trial, and as
> the recent Gunner/Cubillo cases demonstrate, the standards of proof required
> at trials are quite severe, and not necessarily appropriate. However it is
> important that there be some sort of review, administrative or otherwise,
> and I would be quite concerned if that didn't exist and more than prepared
> to do some lobbying.
>
> But if you are so convinced that Australia is such a dreadful place when it
> comes to civil rights, please tell me what country you would prefer to live
> in.
>
> Graham
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sandy Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Aid to the civil authority
>
> > Graham, haven't you ever heard of the frog in the cookpot? Every
> > "could do better" IS evidence of a "decline into despotism". It
> > needn't be in the least "dramatic". What is the evidence that you're
> > looking for? The midnight knock on your own door?
> >
> > Under the agreements being put together by the Commonwealth
> > Government and the NT Government, ostensibly to ameliorate the
> > effects of mandatory sentencing, some children who are suspected
> > of committing petty property crimes are to be "diverted" into various
> > rehab programs BEFORE they are found guilty of anything. And
> > who's to do the diverting? The police. Because they suspect
> > someone of being up to something. Absolutely no presumption of
> > innocence. I still find this absolutely astonishing. So in 2000 in
> > this country the government is putting into place a mechanism to
> > completely deny its citizens what we thought was a basic civil
> > liberty.
> >
> > Do you think this is minor, Graham? Or just procedural? Or OK
> > because some people have said that it seems OK to them? What
> > if there were such a law where you lived, and one of your kids was
> > standing in the schoolyard and got caught up in such a police
> > culling -- and then was sent away for a few weeks or months of
> > diversion? Still OK with you? Still just a "could do better"?
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> > > Laurie, since when have you quoted Phillip Ruddock approvingly? :-))
> > >
> > > And while it is fine to cite UN Committees you really need to do it in
> > > context, and I doubt whether any country would get a 100% mark. It's
> > > not evidence of a decline into despotism but rather "could do better".
> >
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