Thanks Tobias for creating this wiki page. I will edit it today so it presents more than 1 proposal on equal footing.
On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 9:36:25 AM UTC-7 Tobias Diez wrote: > Thanks David for your suggestions! > > I've now created a wiki page at > https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NEP-29:-Python-version-strategy > that on the one hand clarifies a few questions that were raised before and > on the other hand summarizes the discussion we had so far. I tried to add > all points raised as objectively as possible, but could have easily missed > some arguments and misinterpreted others. So please have a look a the page > and edit it as you see fit. I propose that major additions or changes to > the wiki page are first discussed here on the mailing list so that we don't > end in a edit war. > > On Tuesday, 27 June 2023 at 19:30:46 UTC+2 David Roe wrote: > >> Thanks for restarting the discussion Tobias. From my perspective, there >> are several things that can move this conversation forward. >> 1. More clarity on how NEP-29 will be implemented in Sage. In >> particular, that policy just guarantees a particular time frame during >> which Python *will* be supported, but doesn't describe what happens >> afterward. Once the window is passed, is someone (who?) going to >> proactively update build scripts to prohibit the old version of python? Or >> does it just grant permission for people to use features that are not >> available in the old Python, and merging such a PR will also involve >> updating the build requirements? >> 2. A wiki page. Currently, the arguments for and against this change are >> pretty scattered. Tobias (and Dima), could you create a wiki page where >> pros and cons are summarized? Once you do, I would suggest running it by >> Matthias, since a lot of the arguments against it have come from him. >> 3. A timeline. I'm going to suggest three weeks for discussion, with >> voting starting July 18 and ending one week later on July 25 (anywhere on >> earth). I know that there have been conversations on and off about this >> issue for a while, but I think having some time dedicated to focused >> discussion may help others feel like they have a full grasp of the issue. >> 4. Additional people getting involved in the conversation. Tobias, Dima >> and Matthias all clearly feel quite strongly about this issue and have been >> involved in it for a while. Other people can hopefully bring some more >> perspectives, suggesting compromises or giving additional perspectives. In >> the end, we *need* other people to vote, so that Tobias, Dima and >> Matthias can get some resolution on this. >> 5. A moderator. Several people asked me to moderate last time, and I'll >> do my best for this discussion. I'll start with a few requests for >> everyone involved. >> * First, I think multiple short, quick rebuttals are not a good idea in >> a heated email discussion. We have three weeks. Take the time to collect >> your thoughts and respond to the whole of an argument. If appropriate, add >> things to the pros and cons on the wiki page. Most of all, take the time >> to read what you've written and think about how it will be received by both >> the people you're arguing with and the thousands of people subscribed to >> sage-devel. >> * Second, take a step back and think about what you can do to make this >> environment more welcoming and pleasant for everyone. I know several >> people involved have said that the issues we're discussing, and the way >> we're discussing them, have lessened their desire to contribute to Sage, >> and I think that would be a tragedy. All three of you are critical members >> of this community, and I don't want to lose you. I'm not going to >> prescribe anything specific, but I think it would help if everyone can >> think about ways to show that you value the people involved, even if we >> have specific technical disagreements. >> * Third, while work goes forward on a summarizing wiki page, I'd like to >> hear suggestions from others about how to make the process better. Feel >> free to email the list or write to me directly. >> >> We made it through the github discussion, and we can make it through >> this. Stay positive. >> David >> >> On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 10:14 AM Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Any suggestions on how to move forward now? Should I simply open a new >>> vote or are there still open questions or a need to discuss certain aspects >>> of the proposal? >>> >>> On Sunday, 4 June 2023 at 19:49:23 UTC+2 G. M.-S. wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> For the benefit of all of us (including Dima, Matthias and Tobias), >>>> would it be possible to start afresh, without any reference whatsoever to >>>> these 3 linked discussions? >>>> >>>> Also, would it be possible for David to act somehow as a "moderator"? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Guillermo >>>> >>>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 17:37, Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Saturday, 3 June 2023 at 19:31:18 UTC+8 Marc Culler wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That is what always happens when people try to force a vote before >>>>> there has been a discussion of sufficient depth to allow a consensus to >>>>> form. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To clarify since this point came up before: The discussion about this >>>>> topic started over two years ago in >>>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/30384, then this February >>>>> continued on the sage mailing list ( >>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/j1cwbTU8aOU/m/2sTiwdKPBQAJ) >>>>> and in April in the PR https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35403. >>>>> However, only Matthias, Dima and me joined the discussion. Since we three >>>>> couldn't come to a consensus, I opened the vote in order to get the input >>>>> from the broader sage community (following advice from David and William). >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "sage-devel" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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