I'm done with editing for today. There are still a number of major "TBD"s there; others are welcome to help with these.
Matthias On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote: > Thanks Tobias for creating this wiki page. > > I will edit it today so it presents more than 1 proposal on equal footing. > > On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 9:36:25 AM UTC-7 Tobias Diez wrote: > >> Thanks David for your suggestions! >> >> I've now created a wiki page at >> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NEP-29:-Python-version-strategy >> that on the one hand clarifies a few questions that were raised before and >> on the other hand summarizes the discussion we had so far. I tried to add >> all points raised as objectively as possible, but could have easily missed >> some arguments and misinterpreted others. So please have a look a the page >> and edit it as you see fit. I propose that major additions or changes to >> the wiki page are first discussed here on the mailing list so that we don't >> end in a edit war. >> >> On Tuesday, 27 June 2023 at 19:30:46 UTC+2 David Roe wrote: >> >>> Thanks for restarting the discussion Tobias. From my perspective, there >>> are several things that can move this conversation forward. >>> 1. More clarity on how NEP-29 will be implemented in Sage. In >>> particular, that policy just guarantees a particular time frame during >>> which Python *will* be supported, but doesn't describe what happens >>> afterward. Once the window is passed, is someone (who?) going to >>> proactively update build scripts to prohibit the old version of python? Or >>> does it just grant permission for people to use features that are not >>> available in the old Python, and merging such a PR will also involve >>> updating the build requirements? >>> 2. A wiki page. Currently, the arguments for and against this change are >>> pretty scattered. Tobias (and Dima), could you create a wiki page where >>> pros and cons are summarized? Once you do, I would suggest running it by >>> Matthias, since a lot of the arguments against it have come from him. >>> 3. A timeline. I'm going to suggest three weeks for discussion, with >>> voting starting July 18 and ending one week later on July 25 (anywhere on >>> earth). I know that there have been conversations on and off about this >>> issue for a while, but I think having some time dedicated to focused >>> discussion may help others feel like they have a full grasp of the issue. >>> 4. Additional people getting involved in the conversation. Tobias, Dima >>> and Matthias all clearly feel quite strongly about this issue and have been >>> involved in it for a while. Other people can hopefully bring some more >>> perspectives, suggesting compromises or giving additional perspectives. In >>> the end, we *need* other people to vote, so that Tobias, Dima and >>> Matthias can get some resolution on this. >>> 5. A moderator. Several people asked me to moderate last time, and I'll >>> do my best for this discussion. I'll start with a few requests for >>> everyone involved. >>> * First, I think multiple short, quick rebuttals are not a good idea in >>> a heated email discussion. We have three weeks. Take the time to collect >>> your thoughts and respond to the whole of an argument. If appropriate, add >>> things to the pros and cons on the wiki page. Most of all, take the time >>> to read what you've written and think about how it will be received by both >>> the people you're arguing with and the thousands of people subscribed to >>> sage-devel. >>> * Second, take a step back and think about what you can do to make this >>> environment more welcoming and pleasant for everyone. I know several >>> people involved have said that the issues we're discussing, and the way >>> we're discussing them, have lessened their desire to contribute to Sage, >>> and I think that would be a tragedy. All three of you are critical members >>> of this community, and I don't want to lose you. I'm not going to >>> prescribe anything specific, but I think it would help if everyone can >>> think about ways to show that you value the people involved, even if we >>> have specific technical disagreements. >>> * Third, while work goes forward on a summarizing wiki page, I'd like >>> to hear suggestions from others about how to make the process better. Feel >>> free to email the list or write to me directly. >>> >>> We made it through the github discussion, and we can make it through >>> this. Stay positive. >>> David >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 10:14 AM Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Any suggestions on how to move forward now? Should I simply open a new >>>> vote or are there still open questions or a need to discuss certain >>>> aspects >>>> of the proposal? >>>> >>>> On Sunday, 4 June 2023 at 19:49:23 UTC+2 G. M.-S. wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> For the benefit of all of us (including Dima, Matthias and Tobias), >>>>> would it be possible to start afresh, without any reference whatsoever to >>>>> these 3 linked discussions? >>>>> >>>>> Also, would it be possible for David to act somehow as a "moderator"? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Guillermo >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 17:37, Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday, 3 June 2023 at 19:31:18 UTC+8 Marc Culler wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That is what always happens when people try to force a vote before >>>>>> there has been a discussion of sufficient depth to allow a consensus to >>>>>> form. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To clarify since this point came up before: The discussion about this >>>>>> topic started over two years ago in >>>>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/30384, then this February >>>>>> continued on the sage mailing list ( >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/j1cwbTU8aOU/m/2sTiwdKPBQAJ) >>>>>> and in April in the PR https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35403. >>>>>> However, only Matthias, Dima and me joined the discussion. Since we >>>>>> three >>>>>> couldn't come to a consensus, I opened the vote in order to get the >>>>>> input >>>>>> from the broader sage community (following advice from David and >>>>>> William). >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/ecc70cef-6246-4ac7-9bf5-f9b588232ddfn%40googlegroups.com.
