David

I want to make it clear that I'm *strongly* hoping that there will be
greater involvement than just one person.

I also *really* like the idea of building an RM implementation that
has a core model that is not dependent around a specific stack (Axis2,
CXF). I have always believed that there is a space for a really stable
and performant WSRM messaging engine and the Sandesha model - where
the stack is in control and the messaging engine is "just" a set of
handlers just doesn't feel to me like it can compete with a pure
messaging option like ActiveMQ or QPid. So in many ways, starting from
WSRM and treating the problem as "how to build a messaging engine that
also happens to be able to fit into Axis2" would be very interesting
to me.

I am actually not against having an incubator proposal. The only
challenge with the Incubator is that:
1) the incubator is fundamentally designed to bootstrap new
communities. If there is an existing community already then it doesn't
necessarily work. I would rather have this discussion on sandesha-dev
than have to somehow encourage everyone from sandesha-dev to start
paying attention to a new list.
2) The incubator is also about how to get non-Apache members involved.
So far everyone interested in this is already a committer in Apache.
So in fact, labs.apache.org is more appropriate.
3) The incubator is a hassle. Its a hassle for good reasons and I
strongly support it. But if you don't need that hassle, then you
shouldn't take it!

How would a design that works across both CXF and Axis2 work? Its an
intriguing idea.

Paul



On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 5:02 PM, David Illsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Paul Fremantle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Glen. I didn't think there was any consensus from the previous
>> discussion (does the word dissensus exist?) :)
>>
>> I am actually pretty happy to do either, I think each approach has +s and -s.
>>
>> On the side of starting from the Mercury codebase, Amila has got it to
>> a point where it satisfies the 1.0 spec, including Replay.
>> On the other hand, Mercury doesn't yet implement 1.1 or
>> MakeConnection, and also it doesn't support transactions yet, so there
>> are some fairly large aspects still to be coded. And starting afresh
>> might well get more involvement from the wider community which I think
>> has been the main pushback on this proposal so far.
>
> Clearly new code developed here will have far fewer legal issues (e.g.
> the submitted Mercury has a hard LGPL dependency which would need
> ironed out), and would hopefully have a cleaner state machine model -
> the Mercury one seems to have compromised for reasons which are pretty
> opaque.
>
>> I guess one open question is - who is willing to put in the effort to
>> work on this?! If it's just Amila, then starting afresh won't be much
>> benefit, because he will be happier to keep working from the code he
>> has already built.
>
> I'd certainly be interested in being involved in a new codebase, but
> the amount of time I'd have to devote to it would be limited. If it's
> just Amila, then my "Apache Way Sense" tingles to suggest that this
> isn't really going anywhere in Apache, and probably shouldn't.
>
> These 2 questions (legal and community) are some of the reasons why
> the Incubator exists, and sort of points me back in that direction.
>
> David
>
> P.S. In writing this, it occurred to me that trying to write a common
> WS-RM kernel that could be used with CXF and Axis2 might be a good
> target, and that too, might point to the Incubator to help build a
> broader community (not a fully formed thought though)
>
> P.P.S. I really like "dissensus"
>
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-- 
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
Apache Synapse PMC Chair
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com

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