Re: [apple-crop] Rotten to the Core: What pick-your-own apple orchards tell us about the American economy.

[Hugh Thomas]

I'm going to reply to this, mainly to see if it works, as I'm new on here.

I have a question for anyone with a u-pick orchard.  Do the kids do a lot
damage to the trees and fruit, making heavy supervision necessary?  I just
planted a small high density orchard of about an acre and a half.  Would a
small u-pick operation be worth the hassles?  Thanks for any input,
Hugh

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Con.Traas  wrote:

> Hi Jon and friends,
> I get the feeling the article or author is a bit mixed up, and does not
> know exactly what point is the main one. However, there is no doubt that
> all things American make their way across to this side of the pond
> sooner or later, and demand for U-pick apples (or Pick Your Own as we
> call it here) is much greater than ever before, so in that way we are
> following in your footsteps.
> Not everyone that comes to pick is a yuppy though, and mostly it is just
> nice innocent entertainment for families with younger children.
> Personally I think that if we as growers engage with the children, these
> people will have happy memories of apples when they grow older, and
> hopefully better eating habits than they would otherwise have.
> On the issue of cost, I think it is probably more expensive to organise
> for people to come and do U-pick than simply to go out with your orchard
> crew and pick the apples yourself.
> Con Traas
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Rotten to the Core: What pick-your-own appleorchards tell us about the American economy.

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks everyone.  Very good tips and advice.  We owned a retail garden shop
in Los Angeles for 7 years, so I'm so of prepared for the worst people.
 Hot varieties, roping off areas, ripe fruit, running out of lottery money
all very good tips.  The last one a little scary...

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Tommy and Sandy  wrote:

> **
> Just a few comments on pick your own.
> Make sure you are in an area that people don't have to drive too far to
> the orchard.  Be real sure you want to deal with the public who knows
> nothing about picking an apple and of course the first thing they want to
> do is climb a tree.  This is not just limited to kids either.  Be prepared
> to work seven days a week.
> Plant what you can grow well and of course plant some of the new popular
> varieties, like Honey crisp, Fuji, Pink Lady to name a few.
>
> We at Dickie Bros. Orchard in west central Va. offer pick your own all
> season long, but are really too far from high population centers.  People
> really have to drive 2 plus hours to get to us.  Our biggest draw is pick
> your own Fuji and we get lots of Asians, a whole different set of problems
> here.
> And finally make sure your price is high enough to offset the fruit losses
> from drops and culling fruit, but not to high to discourage people from
> coming.
> And remember if you have won the lottery and want to spend your money on
> an apple orchard, you will find out that your lottery winnings will soon
> run out.
>
> Tommy Bruguiere
> Dickie Bros. Orchard
> Roseland, Va.
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Kurt W. Alstede 
> *To:* 'Apple-crop discussion list' 
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 7:32 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Rotten to the Core: What pick-your-own
> appleorchards tell us about the American economy.
>
>  Hugh,
>
> ** **
>
> Choose the business model that works best for you where you are located
> and consider your temperament.   Not everyone is meant to be a retailer.
> It takes both savvy and patience….plus plenty of logistical strength.  The
> bottom line is what type of farming enterprise will you enjoy the most and
> what will provide you the best net income.  Retailing and PYO are not for
> everyone…but they work great for others.
>
> ** **
>
> Good Luck,
>
> ** **
>
> *Kurt W. Alstede*
>
> General Manager,
>
> Alstede Farms, LLC
>
> P.O. Box 278
>
> 84 County Route 513 S. (Old Rt. 24)
>
> Chester, New Jersey 07930
>
> United States of America
>
> ** **
>
> Tel:  908-879-7189
>
> Fax: 908-879-7815
>
> www.alstedefarms.com
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 6:27 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Rotten to the Core: What pick-your-own apple
> orchards tell us about the American economy.
>
> ** **
>
> I'm going to reply to this, mainly to see if it works, as I'm new on here.
>  
>
> ** **
>
> I have a question for anyone with a u-pick orchard.  Do the kids do a lot
> damage to the trees and fruit, making heavy supervision necessary?  I just
> planted a small high density orchard of about an acre and a half.  Would a
> small u-pick operation be worth the hassles?  Thanks for any input,
>
> Hugh
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Con.Traas  wrote:
>
> Hi Jon and friends,
> I get the feeling the article or author is a bit mixed up, and does not
> know exactly what point is the main one. However, there is no doubt that
> all things American make their way across to this side of the pond
> sooner or later, and demand for U-pick apples (or Pick Your Own as we
> call it here) is much greater than ever before, so in that way we are
> following in your footsteps.
> Not everyone that comes to pick is a yuppy though, and mostly it is just
> nice innocent entertainment for families with younger children.
> Personally I think that if we as growers engage with the children, these
> people will have happy memories of apples when they grow older, and
> hopefully better eating habits than they would otherwise have.
> On the issue of cost, I think it is probably more expensive to organise
> for people to come and do U-pick than simply to go out with your orchard
> crew and pick the apples yourself.
> Con Traas
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Senescence

[Hugh Thomas]

I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will post something for you, but
my gut feeling is that this timing could vary from variety to variety and
even from tree to tree.  I use NDemand 30 from Wilber Ellis.  Some of these
products might stain fruit and may have a waiting period.  Good luck and I
have had the same question myself...
http://ag.wilburellis.com/products/pages/NDemand30L30-0-0.aspx?Type=Foliar-applied&main=Plant%20Nutrition&title=NDemand
®%2030L%2030-0-0&cat=ag

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Lee and Vivien Williamson <
leeandviv...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> ** **
>
> Can anybody tell me when senescence in apple trees actually starts and
> finishes?  I understand what senescence is and how it works, at least in
> laymen’s terms, but I’m interested from the perspective of applying foliar
> post harvest fertilisers.  When are the leaves at their most receptive in
> terms of absorbing the nutrients and despatching them to the roots for
> storage over the Winter months?  Should the PHF be applied immediately
> after harvest or is it more advantageous to wait until the leaves have
> started to change colour?  And if so, what shade should they be?  At what
> point do the leaves stop absorbing the nutrients because the cells are too
> ‘old’, in other words at what point am I wasting time and money?  And I
> imagine that it is better to apply the PHF in stages rather than in one
> large hit, for example, three applications of nitrogen at two percent
> rather than one at six percent?
>
> ** **
>
> Any advice and insights would be greatly appreciated.
>
> ** **
>
> Thank you all.
>
> ** **
>
> Lee Williamson
>
> Eden Gardens Orchard
>
> Western Australia
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Apple variety TOGO

[Hugh Thomas]

Chiranjit,
Have a look at this:
http://www.starkbros.com/products/fruit-trees/apple-trees/cinnamon-spice-apple;jsessionid=F08D8AD63301D097ABB21FAA61AA9F54

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar <
parmarch_...@dataone.in> wrote:

>   Dear all,
>
> I am told that there is a variety of apple named TOGO which has a spicy
> cinnmon like flavour.
>
> Is it correct?
>
> Please tell me.
>
> Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
> www.fruitipedia.com
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Maine Voices: Backers of GMO labeling unthinkingly buy conspiracy-based arguments

[Hugh Thomas]

A lot of h*ypocondriacts* involved with this movement. They sense something
is wrong, so they blame food, the weather, "chemicals", etc.  The real
problem is the lack of rational thinking.


On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Jon Clements wrote:

> Well, Art, I would normally suggest you are all Mainiacs -- at least that
> is what this former Vermonter would call that rather large state east of
> New Hampshire (don't get me started on New Hampshire-ites, Live Free or
> Die, give me a break!) -- but at least one of you, the author Mike, and
> perhaps yourself, break the mold! Of course I should not self-espouse
> considering VT is the only New England state without a seacoast, and the
> apple-crop profanity filter would not let pass through the verbiage
> typically used for Mass*&%^s by our good neighbors of the Great White
> North!
>
> Thanks for the link to the article, I think most of us here are on the
> same wavelength. There is a huge risk cup out there, and GMO's may be part
> of it, but I suspect a pretty minute part. Average lifespan, I assume,
> continues to lengthen. And in general, we don't go hungry. Let's worry
> about global warming :-) (Oh oh, is our current agricultural production and
> distribution system contributing to that? I am beginning to sound more like
> a Mainiac, Common Ground Fair here I come!)
>
> Regarding Arctic Apples, there may be one group more "maniacal" than those
> from Maine, and that is probably the Canadians. Well, particularly the Nova
> Scotians. They actually think they grow the best Honeycrisp and lobsters.
> Meh. But I got to give the folks from BC and OSF credit for coming up with
> a great trademark name befitting of Canada! Sorry Arctic Apples, I'll take
> Florida December through February…
>
> Go Bruins!
>
> Jon
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:33 PM,  wrote:
>
>>  [image: The Press Herald] 
>> * Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified.
>>This should get some comments going.
>>
>> Art Kelly
>> Kelly Orchards
>> Acton, ME
>>
>>   Click the following to access the sent link:   
>> Maine
>> Voices: Backers of GMO labeling unthinkingly buy conspiracy-based 
>> arguments
>> * View the most EMAILED for today from The Press
>> Herald  [image: The Press Herald] 1. Maine garden earning
>> national 
>> praise
>>   [image:
>> The Press Herald] 2. Anthem of Maine plans to hire 300 new 
>> workers
>>   [image:
>> The Press Herald] 3. Trek Across Maine bicyclist killed by
>> tractor-trailer
>>   [image:
>> The Press Herald] 4. Plan hopes to curb Maine moose 
>> collisions
>>   [image:
>> The Press Herald] 5. Prosecuted Falmouth parent: We were targeted
>> because we're 
>> rich
>> [image: SAVE THIS 
>> link]
>>  [image:
>> FORWARD THIS 
>> link]
>> Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email
>> content from any Web site. Click 
>> herefor
>>  more information.
>>  *This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste
>> the entire address below into your web browser.
>>
>> http://www.pressherald.com/opinion/backers-of-gmo-labeling-unthinkingly-buy-conspiracy-based-arguments_2013-06-15.html
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jon Clements
> aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
> UMass Cold Spring Orchard
> 393 Sabin St.
> Belche

Re: [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting

[Hugh Thomas]

I use 1 part interior latex paint with 3 parts water and a cheap Ace
Hardware hand 2 gallon sprayer (about $13, $9.99 on sale).  I spray the
southeast side first (walking quickly down the rows) and then the southwest
side next.  I sprayed 1100 trees (1/2 caliper) this way in 4-5 hours. Toss
the sprayer, not worth cleaning...


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Win Cowgill wrote:

> I know of no data on joint compound for lesser or greater peac borer
> control.
> Win
>
> Win Cowgill
> Editor Horticultural News
> Professor and Area Fruit Agent
> New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station
> Rutgers Cooperative Extension
> PO Box 2900
> 314 State Route 12, Bldg. 2
> Flemington, NJ 08822-2900
> Office 908-788-1339
> Fax- 908-806-4735
> Email: cowg...@njaes.rutgers.edu
> www.horticulturalnews.org/
> www.virtualorchard.net/
> http://virtualorchard.net/njfruitfocus/index.html
> www.snyderfarm.rutgers.edu/investigators/cowgill.html
> www.appletesters.net
>
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Arthur Kelly 
> wrote:
>
> It seems like past discussions indicated that adding the joint compound
> helped repel borers.  What do you think?
>
> Art Kelly
> Kelly Orchards
> Acton, ME
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Kurt W. Alstede 
> wrote:
>
>>  Gentlemen:
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Please find below our top secret recipe.  We have never had any adverse
>> effects from exterior paint…in fact we add the fungicide to help protect
>> the tree against wounds and the thiram acts as a rodent repellent.  We use
>> the cheapest white exterior paint that we can find and generally spray it
>> on as a white wash with a handgun from the bottom twelve inches of the
>> scaffold limbs to the ground.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Hope that this helps.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> PEACH  TREE PAINT  RECIPE.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> 1 GAL WHITE EXTERIOR LATEX PAINT
>>
>> 2 GAL  WATER. ( 1 PART PAINT X 2 PARTS WATER )
>>
>> ½ POUND OF THIRAM PER GALLON OF WHITEWASH.
>>
>> 2 TABLESPOONS OF  TOPSIN-M PER GALLON OF WHITEWASH.
>>
>> MIX WHITEWASH, AND ADD THIRAM AND TOPSIN-M. STIR THOROUGHLY.
>>
>> APPLY TO THE TREES WITH PAINT BRUSHES OR SPRAY GUN 12 TO 18 INCHES AFTER
>> SCAFFOLDS WITH
>>
>> DAYTIME TEMPERATURES ABOVE 50 DEGREES F.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *Kurt W. Alstede*
>>
>> General Manager,
>>
>> Alstede Farms, LLC
>>
>> P.O. Box 278
>>
>> 84 County Route 513 S. (Old Rt. 24)
>>
>> Chester, New Jersey 07930
>>
>> United States of America
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Tel:  908-879-7189
>>
>> Fax: 908-879-7815
>>
>> www.alstedefarms.com
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Arthur Kelly
>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:46 AM
>> *To:* Apple-Crop
>> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Does anyone know the recipe for trunk painting including joint compound?*
>> ***
>>
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>>
>>
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>
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Re: [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting

[Hugh Thomas]

Pity you guys back East with the humidity and night heat. We are mid 80's
-90F here in Western Montana and have 30-40 F temp drops at night with no
dew at the moment.  3500 ft elevation with the Rocky Mountain air.  I grew
up in Florida and do not miss the humid and hot nights.  I haven't needed
to spray a fungicide in two years.  The downside - possible freezes as late
as June!


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Win Cowgill wrote:

> Always use Exterior White Latex-
> they are latex if you buy latex- do not use oil base- do not use interior
> latex
> The whitest white is best, thats why we use the Turf line paint- and
> becasue in quantiy its the lest expesive as a rule, and lowest acrylic
> content.
>
>
> Win Cowgill
> Editor Horticultural News
> Professor and Area Fruit Agent
> New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station
> Rutgers Cooperative Extension
> PO Box 2900
> 314 State Route 12, Bldg. 2
> Flemington, NJ 08822-2900
> Office 908-788-1339
> Fax- 908-806-4735
> Email: cowg...@njaes.rutgers.edu
> www.horticulturalnews.org/
> www.virtualorchard.net/
> http://virtualorchard.net/njfruitfocus/index.html
> www.snyderfarm.rutgers.edu/investigators/cowgill.html
> www.appletesters.net
>
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Alvin Warren  wrote:
>
> exterior paints are generally oil based rather than latex
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:29 AM,  wrote:
>
>> and 1/3 joint compound.
>>
>> Also, make sure that the latex paint is interior paint not exterior
>> paint.  Exterior paints have fungicides mixed into them which may be
>> harmful to your trees.
>>
>> Bob Walter
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Kevin Hauser wrote:
>>
>>> 1/3 water
>>> 1/3 white latex paint
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 08:45:51 -0400, Arthur Kelly <
>>> kellyorcha...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Does anyone know the recipe for trunk painting including joint
>>> compound?
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
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[apple-crop] Paraquat

[Hugh Thomas]

Anyone have any experience using paraquat for sucker control?
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Re: [apple-crop] Paraquat

[Hugh Thomas]

Tim,
Thanks much for the great information.  I'm on Bud 9 here and looks like I
have a good possibility for sucker control.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Smith, Timothy J  wrote:

>  Hi everyone,
>
> ** **
>
> Yes, I did some work on that recently.  See attached.
>
> ** **
>
> Sorry about the blank spaces, I removed two pictures  to make the file
> smaller.
>
> ** **
>
> Tim Smith
>
> WSU-Wenatchee, WA
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 08, 2013 9:53 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Paraquat
>
> ** **
>
> Anyone have any experience using paraquat for sucker control?
>
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[apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
rootstock?
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks Gary.  If you have any Honeycrisp on Bud 9 please let me know.
 Looking for 1400 trees 1/2 inch or better if possible...

Hugh Thomas

406-214-8461  hughthoma...@gmail.com


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Gary Snyder  wrote:

> Hugh:
>
> According to the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission M9-Nic29
> rootstock is under the category of (fair) for cold hardiness.
>
> Their rankings range Tolerant, Good and Fair.
>
> Gary Snyder
>
> C & O Nursery
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:18 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
> rootstock?
>
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Vincent,
I planted a few hundred Honeycrisp on Bud 9 last spring and got an average
of 46" of leader growth this season.  Talking to a large grower in Yakima,
Washington last year, he informed me that Bud 9 was his best producer of
Honeycrisp, getting 60 + bins per acre.  I'm fairly new at this, and you
may know much more - please advise...


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Vincent Philion <
vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca> wrote:

> Are you really sure you want HoneyCrisp/B9 ?
>
> Sounds to me like a combination that will result in trees that won’t grow
> enough.
>
> Vincent Philion
> IRDA
>
>
> On 24oct., 2013, at 15:12, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>
> Thanks Gary.  If you have any Honeycrisp on Bud 9 please let me know.
>  Looking for 1400 trees 1/2 inch or better if possible...
>
> Hugh Thomas
>
> 406-214-8461  hughthoma...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Gary Snyder  wrote:
>
>> Hugh:
>>
>> According to the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission M9-Nic29
>> rootstock is under the category of (fair) for cold hardiness.
>>
>> Their rankings range Tolerant, Good and Fair.
>>
>> Gary Snyder
>>
>> C & O Nursery
>>
>>
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:18 AM
>> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
>> *Subject:* [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
>> rootstock?
>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
> Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)
>
> Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
> Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment
>
> www.irda.qc.ca
>
> Centre de recherche
> 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7
>
> vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca
>
> Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
> Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
> Skype: VENTURIA
> Télécopie: 450 653-1927
>
> Verger expérimental
> 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
> Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
> Local pesticide: 450-653-7608
>
>
> Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
> Laboratoire<http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866&q=irda+pfi&hl=fr&sll=45.557814,-73.360476&sspn=8.87586,1.961403&ie=UTF8&ll=45.557814,-73.360476&spn=0,0&z=16>
> Verger<http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=11405391288824931904&q=verger+irda&hl=fr&sll=45.54961,-73.350585&sspn=0.012504,0.018389&ie=UTF8&ll=45.54961,-73.350585&spn=0,0&z=16>
>
> Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
> http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com
>
>
> ___
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> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

My concerns are winter damage.  In the last 80 years here in Western
Montana, temps have been recorded to -33F.  -20 F is almost guaranteed
every year.  I see a problem in that snow cover all winter is not common.
 My first leaf Honeycrisp (planted in April) 1/2 inch trees cut back to
about 34 inches are now 6-7 feet, and have outgrown M26 Suncrisp planted at
the same time, same conditions.  I do keep the nutrients at high levels. Ph
is 7.0 to 7.4 with a silt -loam soil at 3300 feet elevation.  If I thought
Nic29 would take the weather here I would use those.  All of your comments
are very helpful, please keep them coming,
Hugh


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Philion <
vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca> wrote:

> Hi! As a plant pathologist, I love B9 because it is tolerant to
> fireblight. We’ve grown nice and productive trees on B9. However, I agree
> with Mr. Norton = our experience with HoneyCrisp/B9 is not a good one.
>
> Vincent
>
> On 24oct., 2013, at 15:45,  <
> dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com> wrote:
>
> Hugh,  we have been growing Granny Smith, Zestar and Pristine here at
> Royal Oak Farm on M9 in far northern Illinois for about 4 years now and
> have had good results.  We also have Honeycrisp on Bud9 planted at the same
> time and they are half the size of the M9.  We have decided to not use Bud9
> again due to its slow growth pattern for our silty clay loam soil type.
> Hope this helps!
>
> Dennis Norton
> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
> 15908 Hebron Rd.
> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
> Office (815) 648-4467
> Mobile (815) 228-2174
> Fax (609) 228-2174
> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
> http://www.theorchardkeeper.blogspot.com
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Gary Snyder 
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list 
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
> Hugh:
> According to the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission M9-Nic29
> rootstock is under the category of (fair) for cold hardiness.
> Their rankings range Tolerant, Good and Fair.
> Gary Snyder
> C & O Nursery
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:18 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
> rootstock?
>
> --
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
> Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
> Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)
>
> Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
> Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment
>
> www.irda.qc.ca
>
> Centre de recherche
> 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7
>
> vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca
>
> Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
> Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
> Skype: VENTURIA
> Télécopie: 450 653-1927
>
> Verger expérimental
> 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
> Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
> Local pesticide: 450-653-7608
>
>
> Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
> Laboratoire<http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866&q=irda+pfi&hl=fr&sll=45.557814,-73.360476&sspn=8.87586,1.961403&ie=UTF8&ll=45.557814,-73.360476&spn=0,0&z=16>
> Verger<http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=11405391288824931904&q=verger+irda&hl=fr&sll=45.54961,-73.350585&sspn=0.012504,0.018389&ie=UTF8&ll=45.54961,-73.350585&spn=0,0&z=16>
>
> Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
> http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Tim,
Any observations / knowledge / experience with Bud 9 during the cold snap
of 2010?


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Timothy J  wrote:

>  R: winter hardiness of Nic29 /M9:
>
> ** **
>
> The common problem in the inland Pacific Northwest isn’t often from
> classic, low temperature winter damage.  Our more common problems with the
> M9 clones comes from sudden “cold snaps” in the fall.  The trunks of
> younger trees on M9 seem slower to develop  tolerance for low temperatures
> in the fall.  The latest cold snap was in late November 2010, when regional
> temperatures stayed up in the 55-60F highs and 45F lows for the weeks
> before diving down to 8 to18F below zero in 2 days.  This did a lot of
> trunk damage in some orchards, and we are still seeing effects in some
> orchards.  The rootstocks weren’t injured at all, and many of them sent up
> a fringe of collar suckers in response to the trunk injury.  
>
> ** **
>
> One rootstock that sometimes will die from the cold the first few winters,
> with no cold damage to the scion, is  EMLA 106.  They become much hardier
> with age.  I believe I have misidentified winter damage as Phytophthora
> collar rot a few times in orchards  on 106.
>
> ** **
>
> Tim Smith
>
> WSU
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
> rootstock?  
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>  ** **
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>  ** **
>
> Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
>
> Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)
>
> ** **
>
> Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
>
> Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment
>
> ** **
>
> www.irda.qc.ca
>
> ** **
>
> Centre de recherche
>
> 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7
>
> vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca
>
> Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
>
> Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
>
> Skype: VENTURIA
>
> Télécopie: 450 653-1927 
>
> ** **
>
> Verger expérimental
>
> 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
>
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
>
> Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
>
> Local pesticide: 450-653-7608
>
> ** **
>
>
> Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
> Laboratoire
> 
>
> Verger
> 
>
> ** **
>
> Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
> http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com
>
> ** **
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>  ** **
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

My first experiment with apple trees was the spring of 2012. I planted 500
trees, mostly on bud 9.  I didn't do a soil test before planting as the
USDA rates the soil here as being "prime farm land" with a Ph of 7. I
planted and used a NPK slow release (Osmocote).  The next year, before my
next planting of 1100 trees (mostly bud 9) I did a soil test and found I
was low on Boron,copper, Zinc and sulfates.  I have since paid very close
attention to the nutrient levels (tissue testing)  and keep the levels way
up. What I have found is that the new planting is nearly as big as the
first planting, and it looks like some of the Bud 9 trees from the first
year may runt out. My take away from this is that Bud 9 trees need high
levels of nutrients to push them along in the early years, and may never
recover if they lack plenty of food. I plant 3x12 and see no problem at all
with filling the space.  Fingers are crossed.


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Smith, Timothy J  wrote:

>  There were no complaints about Bud9 hardiness or trunk damage on trees
> with that rootstock.  It has a reputation as being hardy, but we can’t use
> it on “old” soils, because it is very susceptible to replant disease.  It
> runts out and eventually dies.It does better on deep soil in new
> orchard sites.  B9 grows root suckers more than most other apple
> rootstocks, but the suckers are a pretty red color, which adds to the joy
> of being in the orchard. 
>
> ** **
>
> Tim  
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:54 PM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
> ** **
>
> Tim,
>
> Any observations / knowledge / experience with Bud 9 during the cold snap
> of 2010?
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Timothy J  wrote:
> 
>
>  R: winter hardiness of Nic29 /M9:
>
>  
>
> The common problem in the inland Pacific Northwest isn’t often from
> classic, low temperature winter damage.  Our more common problems with the
> M9 clones comes from sudden “cold snaps” in the fall.  The trunks of
> younger trees on M9 seem slower to develop  tolerance for low temperatures
> in the fall.  The latest cold snap was in late November 2010, when regional
> temperatures stayed up in the 55-60F highs and 45F lows for the weeks
> before diving down to 8 to18F below zero in 2 days.  This did a lot of
> trunk damage in some orchards, and we are still seeing effects in some
> orchards.  The rootstocks weren’t injured at all, and many of them sent up
> a fringe of collar suckers in response to the trunk injury.  
>
>  
>
> One rootstock that sometimes will die from the cold the first few winters,
> with no cold damage to the scion, is  EMLA 106.  They become much hardier
> with age.  I believe I have misidentified winter damage as Phytophthora
> collar rot a few times in orchards  on 106.
>
>  
>
> Tim Smith
>
> WSU
>
> ** **
>
>
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
> rootstock?  
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>   
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>   
>
> Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
>
> Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)
>
>  
>
> Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
>
> Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment
>
>  
>
> www.irda.qc.ca
>
>  
>
> Centre de recherche
>
> 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7
>
> vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca
>
> Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
>
> Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
>
> Skype: VENTURIA
>
> Télécopie: 450 653-1927 
>
>  
>
> Verger expérimental
>
> 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
>
> Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
>
> Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
>
> Local pesticide: 450-653-7608
>
>  
>
>
> Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
> Laboratoire<http://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866&q=irda+pfi&hl=fr&sll=45.557814,-73.360476&sspn=8.87586,1.961403&ie=UTF8&ll=45.557814,-73.

Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

I worked in Florida as a horticulturalist for ten years and in California
for twenty. I found that even though parts of Florida and parts of
California had the same climate zones, many things would not grow in both
areas.  For example, the plant, Croton, (Codiaeum variegatum) a common
house plant will grow like crazy outdoors in Miami, it will not grow at all
outdoors in San Diego. Some parts of San Diego have never had a freeze
(Miami has) but Croton will not grow outdoors there.  Italian cypress grows
like crazy in Southern California, but does poorly in Florida.  Summer is
tomato time in California, but in Florida, tomatoes are a fall or early
spring crop.  I believe it is possible (gut feeling here) that Bud 9 does
best with cool summer nights. The Pacific Northwest has cool summer nights
whereas the East and midwest have warm summer nights. Here in Montana we
commonly have 90 degree highs in the summer with a 35-40 degree drop at
night.  I found this to be the answer to the growing differences between
Florida and California. Where many assume it is humidity - not so- as I
have seen cool nights in humid greenhouses in California have the same
limiting effect. My thoughts...


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Jon Clements wrote:

> Simple solution -- pre-order and plant them 2 ft. X 10 ft. Will make you,
> and the nursery, happy...:-)
>
> Jon
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Kushad, Mosbah M wrote:
>
>>  I have had little luck with Gala, Fuji, and Honeycrisp filling their
>> spaces when grafted on Bud 9. Central Illinois has one of the richest soils
>> in the country, but that does not seem to make a difference.  Bud 9 reminds
>> me of Mark, it start great, but it slows down considerably after five plus
>> years of growth.  Mosbah Kushad, University of Illinois
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Vincent Philion
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 3:53 PM
>> *To:* Apple-Crop
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> No doubt that B9 is extremely winter hardy.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If you pamper those trees so they grow, it could be ok.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Our Honeycrisp/B9 never filled their space (12’ x 4’)
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Others had good results with that combination =
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> http://www.hrt.msu.edu/assets/PagePDFs/ronald-perry/Rootstocks-for-Honeycrisp2.pdf
>> 
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 24oct., 2013, at 16:39, Hugh Thomas  wrote:***
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> My concerns are winter damage.  In the last 80 years here in Western
>> Montana, temps have been recorded to -33F.  -20 F is almost guaranteed
>> every year.  I see a problem in that snow cover all winter is not common.
>>  My first leaf Honeycrisp (planted in April) 1/2 inch trees cut back to
>> about 34 inches are now 6-7 feet, and have outgrown M26 Suncrisp planted at
>> the same time, same conditions.  I do keep the nutrients at high levels. Ph
>> is 7.0 to 7.4 with a silt -loam soil at 3300 feet elevation.  If I thought
>> Nic29 would take the weather here I would use those.  All of your comments
>> are very helpful, please keep them coming,
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Philion <
>> vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Hi! As a plant pathologist, I love B9 because it is tolerant to
>> fireblight. We’ve grown nice and productive trees on B9. However, I agree
>> with Mr. Norton = our experience with HoneyCrisp/B9 is not a good one.***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Vincent
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 24oct., 2013, at 15:45,  <
>> dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hugh,  we have been growing Granny Smith, Zestar and Pristine here at
>> Royal Oak Farm on M9 in far northern Illinois for about 4 years now and
>> have had good results.  We also have Honeycrisp on Bud9 planted at the same
>> time and they are half the size of the M9.  We have decided to not use Bud9
>> again due to its slow growth pattern for our silty clay loam soil type.
>> Hope this helps!
>>
>>  
>>
>> Dennis Norton
>> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
>> 15908 Hebron Rd.
>> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
>> Office (815) 648-4467
>> Mobile (815) 228-2174
>> Fax (609) 

Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

The successful grower I met in Washington irrigates Bud 9 every 5 days.
 This is under-tree sprinkler irrigation. I do the same and water 1 - 1.5"
with each irrigation every five days on average in the summer.  If the
weather is really hot, say 95F everyday, then I might shorten that to every
4 days. My soil is a silt/loam that has good drainage, high organic matter
and holds moisture well. In fact, I was amazed at how much water HC/B9
needs.  I believe if you are not irrigating Honeycrisp on Bud 9, you are in
trouble. Bud 9 seems to like "wet feet," but at the same time the soil
needs air.  My philosophy is to water an inch plus, and then let that drain
down and give the trees a chance to have air for a couple of days, and then
do it again.  I can see stunting if the trees get dry, as the roots will
send a chemical signal to the upper part of the tree and tell it to "stop
growing."  My sense is that Bud 9 has a hair trigger on sending that
signal. I just assumed that all orchards back East have irrigation, if not,
then I would bet a cheeseburger that this is the problem with runted out
Bud 9's.

If I had a stunted Bud 9 block, I would get a soil test and a tissue test
and POUR the nutrients on the block and NEVER let the trees dry out too
far.  I would crank up the NPK and minors at the expense of fruit quality
for a season and then back off the N for fruiting if the trees recover.  My
two cents...


On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> Especially for Jon Clements, but others as well:
>
> ** **
>
> Are your initial Honeycrisp/Bud 9 Tall Spindle trials, where you cropped
> starting in 2nd leaf, agreeing with Mike’s experience?  Looking at these
> trials subsequently, what happened to production?  I have a 1,000 tree
> Honeycrisp/Bud 9 Tall Spindle planting planned for 2015 and this discussion
> has taken a very interesting turn.
>
> ** **
>
> I noticed this year that with my 2nd leaf Snowsweet Tall Spindle on Bud
> 9, the trees that were fully cropped hardly grew (but produced huge fruit);
> however, the trees that had no fruit (spotty pollination in southern Maine
> with nearly continuous rain during bloom) also grew very little.  Not one
> Snowsweet is even close to the top wire, located ~8.5’.   We did have four
> periods of drought-induced stress this year, and the Bud 9 varieties were
> clearly the most checked.  I will have Uniram drip with fertigation for all
> trees starting in 2014, and I anticipate that this will help ameliorate.**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
>
> Gorham ME 04038
>
> 207.239.0442
>
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Mike Fargione
> *Sent:* Friday, October 25, 2013 9:42 AM
> *To:* jon.cleme...@umass.edu; Apple-crop discussion list
>
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
> ** **
>
> Some growers in NY’s Hudson Valley prefer to plant Honeycrisp on B9
> because they feel these trees are less prone to biennial bearing and can be
> cropped more heavily each year compared with Honeycrisp on M9.  Our
> experience is that planting Honeycrisp/B9 at higher density and not
> cropping in years 1 & 2 can produce a very productive orchard.
>
> Mike
>
>  
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
> mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
> *On Behalf Of *Jon Clements
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 6:26 PM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness
>
>  
>
> Simple solution -- pre-order and plant them 2 ft. X 10 ft. Will make you,
> and the nursery, happy...:-)
>
>  
>
> Jon
>
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>
>
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[apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1. Any
input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to find
so I'm considering V1.
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Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks Jon,
I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
you a report as the next few seasons go by.
Hugh


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements wrote:

> Hugh, see this for a start:
>
> http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U
>
> Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
> some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
> well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
> running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
> plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
> believe have come from Cameron Nursery.
>
> Jon
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas wrote:
>
>> In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1. Any
>> input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to find
>> so I'm considering V1.
>>
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jon Clements
> aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
> UMass Cold Spring Orchard
> 393 Sabin St.
> Belchertown, MA  01007
> 413-478-7219
> umassfruit.com
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
___
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Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

I've read that V1 is resistant to fire blight.  See:
http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/treefruit/outreach/files/PerformanceandAvailabilityoftheVinelandAppleRootstocks-Dec2006.pdf


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Deborah I. Breth  wrote:

>  Is V1 resistant or susceptible to fire blight?
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Deborah I. Breth
>
> Cornell Cooperative Extension - Lake Ontario Fruit Program
>
> Team Leader and IPM Specialist in Tree Fruit and Berries
>
> 12690 Rt. 31
>
> Albion, NY   14411
>
> ** **
>
> phone: 585.798.4265 x 36
>
> mobile:  585.747.6039
>
> fax:  585.798.5191
>
> ** **
>
> email: d...@cornell.edu
>
> LOF website <http://www.fruit.cornell.edu/lof>
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Huffman, Leslie
> (OMAFRA)
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:02 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list; Jon Clements
>
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock
>
>  ** **
>
> I agree with Jon, V1 definitely has more vigour. 
>
> ** **
>
> Leslie 
>
> [image: cid:image001.gif@01CDC8A7.C95AB0F0]
> Leslie Huffman
> 519-738-1256
> leslie.huff...@ontario.ca <519-738-1256leslie.huff...@ontario.ca>   
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
> mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
> *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* October-30-13 2:47 PM
> *To:* Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks Jon,
>
> I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
> about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
> you a report as the next few seasons go by. 
>
> Hugh
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements 
> wrote:
>
> Hugh, see this for a start:
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U
> 
>
> ** **
>
> Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
> some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
> well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
> running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
> plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
> believe have come from Cameron Nursery.
>
> ** **
>
> Jon
>
> ** **
>
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>  In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1. Any
> input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to find
> so I'm considering V1.
>
> ** **
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> -- 
>
> Jon Clements
> aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
> UMass Cold Spring Orchard
> 393 Sabin St.
> Belchertown, MA  01007
> 413-478-7219
> umassfruit.com
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
> ** **
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
___
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Rich,
I'm curious about your location and elevation.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett  wrote:

> I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
> anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
> from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
> we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
> toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly  wrote:
>
> I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
> 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
> sometime.
>
> Art Kelly
> Kelly Orchards
> Acton, Maine
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:
>
> I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
> also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
> Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
> any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
> thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
> maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
> with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
> longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
> U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.
>
> Steven Bibula
> Plowshares Community Farm
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
> Gorham ME 04038
> 207.239.0442
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
> Rich Everett
>
> Everett Family Farm
> "Fine Organics From Seed to Core"
> reofar...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
___
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Steven,
Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
> about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
> is, does anyone have experience with this.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Rich,
>
> I'm curious about your location and elevation.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett  wrote:
>
> I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
> anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
> from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
> we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
> toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly  wrote:
>
>
>
> I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
> 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
> sometime.
>
>
>
> Art Kelly
>
> Kelly Orchards
>
> Acton, Maine
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:
>
>
>
> I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
> also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
> Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
> any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
> thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
> maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
> with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
> longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
> U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
>
> Gorham ME 04038
>
> 207.239.0442
>
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> Rich Everett
>
>
>
> Everett Family Farm
>
> "Fine Organics From Seed to Core"
>
> reofar...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
___
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Makes sense to me now.

I've read that Bud 118 doesn't need support.   A question I've always had
is, "Why is it important to not cut the leader?"  Seems like an idea
situation to me would be to plant high density with root stocks that are
self supporting and cut the top out every year to two to control the height
of the trees.  Another thought is that the dwarf trees are really large
trees, in my mind - 10+ feet.  Seems like a super dwarf that gets to about
7 feet would be idea, planted a foot apart - wild thoughts...


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> Hugh,
>
>
>
> What Art said, plus the idea that interstems should to provide a
> ultimately similar orchard result as with Tall Spindle or other high
> density plantings, with somewhat less cost per acre due to less support
> needed and fewer trees per acre; also, the hope is to achieve longer tree
> life than with straight dwarf rootstocks.
>
>
>
> I have a few sloped and curving fields that don’t lend themselves to
> post-and-wire, so I am looking for early bearing, high density alternatives.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 1:24 PM
>
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Steven,
>
> Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula 
> wrote:
>
> I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
> about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
> is, does anyone have experience with this.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Rich,
>
> I'm curious about your location and elevation.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett  wrote:
>
> I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
> anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
> from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
> we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
> toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly  wrote:
>
>
>
> I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
> 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
> sometime.
>
>
>
> Art Kelly
>
> Kelly Orchards
>
> Acton, Maine
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:
>
>
>
> I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
> also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
> Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
> any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
> thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
> maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
> with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
> longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
> U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
>
> Gorham ME 04038
>
> 207.239.0442
>
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> Rich Everett
>
>
>
> Everett Family Farm
>
> "Fine Organics From Seed to Core"
>
> reofar...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> ___
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> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
___
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
I heard of this technique, "crop and flop" where the central leader bends
on its own. Can't see a problem with helping the process along with some
string,
Thanks for the ideas,
Hugh


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Fleming, William
wrote:

> Tree height in a high density orchard depends on your latitude, row width
> and orientation i.e. N-S or E-W.
>
> While a short tree might be ideal if you want to go ladderless at our
> latitude here in Montana 12 foot tall trees oriented N-S with a 14’ drive
> row take maximum advantage of the sun.
>
> I’ve seen an online calculator for this but don’t recall where. My bet is
> google knows though.
>
> To stop or slow down trees from growing taller I just head back to a
> weaker side branch, hopefully one that has fruited, or you can bend down
> the central leader to 45° or less with string once it gets to the desired
> height.
>
> I never cut the central leader till it reaches the desired height.
>
>
>
> *Bill Fleming*
>
> *Montana State University*
>
> *Western Ag Research Center*
>
> *580 Quast Lane*
>
> *Corvallis, MT 59828*
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 10:06 PM
>
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Makes sense to me now.
>
>
>
> I've read that Bud 118 doesn't need support.   A question I've always had
> is, "Why is it important to not cut the leader?"  Seems like an idea
> situation to me would be to plant high density with root stocks that are
> self supporting and cut the top out every year to two to control the height
> of the trees.  Another thought is that the dwarf trees are really large
> trees, in my mind - 10+ feet.  Seems like a super dwarf that gets to about
> 7 feet would be idea, planted a foot apart - wild thoughts...
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Steven Bibula 
> wrote:
>
> Hugh,
>
>
>
> What Art said, plus the idea that interstems should to provide a
> ultimately similar orchard result as with Tall Spindle or other high
> density plantings, with somewhat less cost per acre due to less support
> needed and fewer trees per acre; also, the hope is to achieve longer tree
> life than with straight dwarf rootstocks.
>
>
>
> I have a few sloped and curving fields that don’t lend themselves to
> post-and-wire, so I am looking for early bearing, high density alternatives.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 1:24 PM
>
>
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Steven,
>
> Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula 
> wrote:
>
> I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
> about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
> is, does anyone have experience with this.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management
>
>
>
> Rich,
>
> I'm curious about your location and elevation.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett  wrote:
>
> I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
> anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
> from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
> we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
> toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly  wrote:
>
>
>
> I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
> 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
> sometime.
>
>
>
> Art Kelly
>
> Kelly Orchards
>
> Acton, Maine
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:
>
>
>
> I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
> also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
> Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
&

Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks Rich.  Try selling your press on this cider forum:
cider-requ...@talisman.com


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Rich Everett  wrote:

> Huge, we are at Lat 38, and nearly at sea level.   I think it is common
> for the tree to be a  tough one to grow throughout the US market compared
> to other apple trees.  There is no doubt it's a good fresh apple for eating
> and as I mentioned it was not a favorite for juice as compared to our 17
> other varieties…
>
> I'm selling a 22" rack and cloth press if anyone is interested?
>
> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>
> I've read that V1 is resistant to fire blight.  See:
> http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/treefruit/outreach/files/PerformanceandAvailabilityoftheVinelandAppleRootstocks-Dec2006.pdf
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Deborah I. Breth wrote:
>
>>  Is V1 resistant or susceptible to fire blight?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Deborah I. Breth
>>
>> Cornell Cooperative Extension - Lake Ontario Fruit Program
>>
>> Team Leader and IPM Specialist in Tree Fruit and Berries
>>
>> 12690 Rt. 31
>>
>> Albion, NY   14411
>>
>>
>>
>> phone: 585.798.4265 x 36
>>
>> mobile:  585.747.6039
>>
>> fax:  585.798.5191
>>
>>
>>
>> email: d...@cornell.edu
>>
>> LOF website <http://www.fruit.cornell.edu/lof>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Huffman, Leslie
>> (OMAFRA)
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:02 AM
>> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list; Jon Clements
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with Jon, V1 definitely has more vigour.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leslie
>>
>> [image: cid:image001.gif@01CDC8A7.C95AB0F0]
>> Leslie Huffman
>> 519-738-1256
>> leslie.huff...@ontario.ca <519-738-1256leslie.huff...@ontario.ca>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
>> mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
>> *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
>> *Sent:* October-30-13 2:47 PM
>> *To:* Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Jon,
>>
>> I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
>> about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
>> you a report as the next few seasons go by.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hugh, see this for a start:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U
>>
>>
>>
>> Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
>> some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
>> well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
>> running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
>> plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
>> believe have come from Cameron Nursery.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1.
>> Any input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to
>> find so I'm considering V1.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jon Clements
>> aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
>> UMass Cold Spring Orchard
>> 393 Sabin St.
>> Belchertown, MA  01007
>> 413-478-7219
>> umassfruit.com
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> Rich Everett
>
> Everett Family Farm
> "Fine Organics From Seed to Core"
> reofar...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] back up cameras for spray rig

[Hugh Thomas]

Russell,
I don't know about your specific questions, however, I was a commercial
photographer for 20 years. I can tell you that rear tractor lights pointing
towards the trees being sprayed will be very important. They will need to
adjusted to achieve a partial "glare angle" so that light bouncing off the
spray mist will be reflected back toward the camera. As far as reflected
light in the cab, it ought to be adjustable and I see no problem.  If the
monitor is not adjustable, and if it is too bright, then cover it with
Rosco neutral density filter gel available from BH photo for about $6 a
sheet. 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/163137-REG/Rosco_102302992124_E_Colour_299_1_2_Neutral.html
 Can be cut with scissors and duct taped over the screen.

The minimum screen size is determined by your viewing distance.  For
example, A 4 inch screen will work fine if it is 10 inches from your face,
a 12 inch screen will work 2-3 feet from your face, assuming you have good
vision. Before you buy the screen, locate the position you will mount it in
the cab, cut a piece of cardboard the size of the monitor and place it in
that location. If it looks big enough, it will probably work.

The main problem I see is spray mist on your camera lens. Once the lens
gets fogged with horticultural spray oil, or a any other spray, your camera
will be blind. I am very skeptical. My take on it...


On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM,  wrote:

> I'm looking for other members input/experience with the use of remote
> "back-up" type cameras for monitoring a sprayer from inside a cab.  I have
> seen youtube videos from europe with orchard rigs using cameras and a quick
> google search turned up several options designed for ag use that cost
> between $400 and $900.  My concerns with regard to orchard use are:
>
> 1. Whats the minimum screen size required to get clarity?
> 2. How well do they work at night?
> 3. Does the screen create too much reflected light in the cab at night?
>
> If anyone can answer these questions or has anything to else to add, it
> would be appreciated.
>
> Russell Holmberg
> Holmberg Orchards
> Gales Ferry, CT
> www.holmbergorchards.com
> cell 860 575 2888
>
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Re: [apple-crop] back up cameras for spray rig

[Hugh Thomas]

You guys must have plenty of dough. Another way is to employ a camera on a
remote controlled helicopter. This can be controlled by a smart phone. Some
of these have GPS and I assume can be programed with a route. SEE:
http://www.atlantahobby.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=18034&idcategory=


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:40 PM, maurice tougas
wrote:

> Russell,
> I tried doing just what you suggest several years ago and found it not
> terribly useful. The clarity of the picture with all of the bouncing around
> proved to make the view not useful. I did not buy a top o the line unit (I
> am a new englander after all!) and so perhaps with improvements in
> technology and your willingness to shell out more $ than I was would prove
> more success. I would agree that you would need as large a screen as you
> could fit and that would be helpful. I'd be inclined to try Evan's idea
> first though.
>
> Mo Tougas
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for other members input/experience with the use of remote
>> "back-up" type cameras for monitoring a sprayer from inside a cab.  I have
>> seen youtube videos from europe with orchard rigs using cameras and a quick
>> google search turned up several options designed for ag use that cost
>> between $400 and $900.  My concerns with regard to orchard use are:
>>
>> 1. Whats the minimum screen size required to get clarity?
>> 2. How well do they work at night?
>> 3. Does the screen create too much reflected light in the cab at night?
>>
>> If anyone can answer these questions or has anything to else to add, it
>> would be appreciated.
>>
>> Russell Holmberg
>> Holmberg Orchards
>> Gales Ferry, CT
>> www.holmbergorchards.com
>> cell 860 575 2888
>>
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Maurice Tougas
> Tougas Family Farm
> Northborough,MA 01532
> 508-450-0844
>
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>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] back up cameras for spray rig

[Hugh Thomas]

You could easily put a bird of prey call on it.


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 4:32 PM, maurice tougas
wrote:

> Now you've got my attention! Sister a pellet gun on that bird and PYO
> would be great fun!
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Hugh Thomas wrote:
>
>> You guys must have plenty of dough. Another way is to employ a camera on
>> a remote controlled helicopter. This can be controlled by a smart phone.
>> Some of these have GPS and I assume can be programed with a route. SEE:
>> http://www.atlantahobby.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=18034&idcategory=
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:40 PM, maurice tougas <
>> appleman.maur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Russell,
>>> I tried doing just what you suggest several years ago and found it not
>>> terribly useful. The clarity of the picture with all of the bouncing around
>>> proved to make the view not useful. I did not buy a top o the line unit (I
>>> am a new englander after all!) and so perhaps with improvements in
>>> technology and your willingness to shell out more $ than I was would prove
>>> more success. I would agree that you would need as large a screen as you
>>> could fit and that would be helpful. I'd be inclined to try Evan's idea
>>> first though.
>>>
>>> Mo Tougas
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm looking for other members input/experience with the use of remote
>>>> "back-up" type cameras for monitoring a sprayer from inside a cab.  I have
>>>> seen youtube videos from europe with orchard rigs using cameras and a quick
>>>> google search turned up several options designed for ag use that cost
>>>> between $400 and $900.  My concerns with regard to orchard use are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Whats the minimum screen size required to get clarity?
>>>> 2. How well do they work at night?
>>>> 3. Does the screen create too much reflected light in the cab at night?
>>>>
>>>> If anyone can answer these questions or has anything to else to add, it
>>>> would be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Russell Holmberg
>>>> Holmberg Orchards
>>>> Gales Ferry, CT
>>>> www.holmbergorchards.com
>>>> cell 860 575 2888
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> apple-crop mailing list
>>>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Maurice Tougas
>>> Tougas Family Farm
>>> Northborough,MA 01532
>>> 508-450-0844
>>>
>>> ___
>>> apple-crop mailing list
>>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Maurice Tougas
> Tougas Family Farm
> Northborough,MA 01532
> 508-450-0844
>
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>
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

I bet less than 15% of households have heard of Honeycrisp. When I go to
the store, I make it a point to ask customers in the produce section about
Honeycrisp. Most have never heard of it. If those who have, about 50% say
it is a very good apple or it is their favorite apple. One man told me that
it is the only apple he will buy, and buys it at any price.

At Costco here in Missoula, Mt, the produce stocker told me that he has to
re-stock HC more than any other variety. My view is that the high price of
HC is based on the high value people place on the taste. The market is
telling us that HC is the best tasting and most satisfying apple out there.
In the competitive marketplace, millions are voting daily with their
wallets, and you just can't argue with the outcome.

About two years ago, I got interested in growing apples, even though I
rarely eat one. I read about HC but never tasted one. I went to the store
and bought a couple, and the next day I went back and bought a dozen or so.
After I finished those, I bought a couple of more varieties, brought them
home and took a bite of a Mac, and then spit that into the garbage can, I
tried another variety (can't remember which one) and spit that out. The
difference to me, in my personal view, is that I eat HC or I don't eat
apples.

The problem is, poorly grown HC are just not good tasting apples. They need
a cold winter, heavy thinning to avoid over cropping, calcium sprays every
4-6 days and careful handling.


On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> In Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples were 99
> cents per pound, except some smallish, mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49
> per pound.  How long can an apple coast in the premium price range on
> little more than the name?
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
>
> Gorham ME 04038
>
> 207.239.0442
>
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

In my personal view, based on personal taste preferences, which are
subjective of course, Honeycrisp should not be called an "apple." It is so
far above everything else that it is in its own realm.


On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:17 PM, John Belisle  wrote:

> Steve,
>
>
>
> The question is deceptive.  What I suggest is that  as long as you are
> exposed to  an apple that is mediocre you will ask your question. I am
> sorry that you have been exposed to  apples without quality.  In today's
> market most $.99 apples are of lower grade and reflect so with taste.
>
>
>
> If you ever ate a HoneyCrisp in its glory, Pretty, unbelievably crisp, and
> flavor to die for you would know that $2.49 might just be below value .
>  That is the gist of it.
>
>
>
> There are other reasons why growers need a higher price but consumers,
> have the final say and they vote with their pocket book.  In HoneyCrisp
> case the vote is in.  $3.49 in our markets.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Belisle
>
> BelleWood Acres
>
> 4160 Guide Merdian
>
> Lynden Wa. 98264
>
> Off:   360-318-7720
>
> Cell:  360-739-4060
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Steven Bibula
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 29, 2014 3:00 PM
> *To:* 'Apple-crop discussion list'
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices
>
>
>
> In Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples were 99
> cents per pound, except some smallish, mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49
> per pound.  How long can an apple coast in the premium price range on
> little more than the name?
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> 236 Sebago Lake Road
>
> Gorham ME 04038
>
> 207.239.0442
>
> www.plowsharesmaine.com
>
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
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>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
On elevation - I was talking to a big name guy in apple research when I
attended the hort show and "Honeycrisp Experience" in Washington recently.
I asked him about our elevation here in Montana (3500') and the effect of
temperature drops of 40-50 degrees every night in the summer. His response
was, "you're are gonna' grow the best Honeycrisp in the western U.S."


On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:03 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote:

>  We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we've
> added more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we
> are a bit too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently
> high quality with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great,
> but in many years the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best
> quality Honeycrisp I have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it
> kindly!).  Over-cropping HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality,
> but I think that harvesting prematurely is a close second.  In some years,
> Honeycrisp show quite a bit of preharvest drop in our region, perhaps
> because of  water stress created by high temperatures between late July and
> August.  In any case, many folks have difficulty delaying harvest to
> achieve optimum quality when apples worth a dollar each are dropping in
> large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY (Champlain Valley) can grow
> excellent HC and they initially reported that they did not have drop
> problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that region after an
> exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I'm not certain if
> anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, nighttime
> temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including
> foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either
> exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some
> general concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the
> acceptable ranges of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality
> (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.
>
>  Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually
> I tired of buying "crunch" at the expense of the more complex flavors that
> exist in other cultivars. At this point, I'd compare Honeycrisp to a modest
> quality champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better
> cultivars have the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an
> expensive Cabernet.  Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested
> SnapDragon, SweeTango, and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All
> three of these cultivars have both crunch and complex flavors, especially
> at harvest when the aroma volatiles that provide much of the flavor
> complexity are at their best. For a variety of reasons,  I doubt that any
> of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of Honeycrisp in consumer
> consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to stake out totally new
> territory in the apple market because of its unique texture, and being
> first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper tissues as
> "Kleenex".)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating quality of
> HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three favorites
> noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during storage.
> SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just not
> quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of
> SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the
> world-wide visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in
> stores will hopefully get a more consistent quality apple than has been the
> case with HC.   Finally, most consumers right now seem to want "sweet,
> juicy, crunch" and are less selective when it comes to the nuances of good
> apple flavors.  Thus, I would guess that those of us who have experienced
> top-quality fruit and can differentiate between "exceptional" and "good"
> fruit will always be a minority in the market place.
>
>  Now, if someone can come up with an easy-to-grow cultivar that has both
> the HC crunch factor AND complex aroma volatiles that persist through 6 to
> 10 months of CA storage, that will be the apple that will ultimately
> displace HC in the marketplace.
>
>   
>
> Dave Rosenberger, Professor of Plant Pathology
>  Cornell's Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
> Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
> http://pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/people/dave-rosenberger
> 
>
>
>  On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Fleming, William 
> wrote:
>
>   Back when I grew apples in North Central Washington they always said
> you couldn't grow good apples down south in the Columbia Basin so hardly
> anyone did. Then

Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
I know I'm rollin' the dice but as long as the trees stay alive I'm willing
to loose from time to time with weather


On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Fleming, William
wrote:

> I agree Hugh, this might be one of the best places to grow HC as long as
> we get by spring frosts, summer hail and single digit first fall frost.
>
> I see very little of the bitter pit that seems to plague HC growers
> elsewhere. The two times I've lost HC crops due to spring frost didn't seem
> to throw them into alternate bearing either.
>
>
>
> *Bill Fleming*
>
> *Montana State University*
>
> *Western Ag Research Center*
>
> *580 Quast Lane*
>
> *Corvallis, MT 59828*
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 30, 2014 4:40 PM
>
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
> On elevation - I was talking to a big name guy in apple research when I
> attended the hort show and "Honeycrisp Experience" in Washington recently.
> I asked him about our elevation here in Montana (3500') and the effect of
> temperature drops of 40-50 degrees every night in the summer. His response
> was, "you're are gonna' grow the best Honeycrisp in the western U.S."
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:03 AM, David A. Rosenberger 
> wrote:
>
> We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we've
> added more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we
> are a bit too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently
> high quality with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great,
> but in many years the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best
> quality Honeycrisp I have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it
> kindly!).  Over-cropping HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality,
> but I think that harvesting prematurely is a close second.  In some years,
> Honeycrisp show quite a bit of preharvest drop in our region, perhaps
> because of  water stress created by high temperatures between late July and
> August.  In any case, many folks have difficulty delaying harvest to
> achieve optimum quality when apples worth a dollar each are dropping in
> large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY (Champlain Valley) can grow
> excellent HC and they initially reported that they did not have drop
> problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that region after an
> exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I'm not certain if
> anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, nighttime
> temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including
> foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either
> exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some
> general concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the
> acceptable ranges of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality
> (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.
>
>
>
> Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually I
> tired of buying "crunch" at the expense of the more complex flavors that
> exist in other cultivars. At this point, I'd compare Honeycrisp to a modest
> quality champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better
> cultivars have the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an
> expensive Cabernet.  Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested
> SnapDragon, SweeTango, and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All
> three of these cultivars have both crunch and complex flavors, especially
> at harvest when the aroma volatiles that provide much of the flavor
> complexity are at their best. For a variety of reasons,  I doubt that any
> of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of Honeycrisp in consumer
> consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to stake out totally new
> territory in the apple market because of its unique texture, and being
> first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper tissues as
> "Kleenex".)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating quality of
> HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three favorites
> noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during storage.
> SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just not
> quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of
> SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the
> world-wide visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in
> s

Re: [apple-crop] Peach question

[Hugh Thomas]

see this: "It is called callus tissue (undifferentiated cells).  It is not
a fungus, bacteria or other type of disease. It is naturally occurring, and
it is not harmful.  It can be safely eaten along with the rest of the
peach."
http://www.clemson.edu/extension/peach/faq/what_is_the_whitish_tissue_that_sometimes_appears_inside_a_peach_near_the_pit.html


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Mark Angermayer wrote:

> I had a guy ask a question yesterday for which I didn't have a good answer.
>
> He had purchased peaches from another orchard and complained the peaches
> had "mold" next to the pit.  What he described was a white substance next
> to the pit, not unusual in freestone peaches.  At one time I read an
> article which described in specifics what the white substance was, but I
> can't remember now.  I told him it probably wasn't mold, and that it was
> natural.  I'd like to have a more specific response for my own customers.
>  Anyone know what the white spots are next to the pit, sometimes seen when
> breaking open a freestone peach?
>
> Mark Angermayer
> Tubby Fruits
> Bucyrus KS
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Re: [apple-crop] Tall spindle trellis

[Hugh Thomas]

Seems to me, that they could basically be as long as you want them to be. I
would calculate the fuel capacity of my tractors so that one doesn't run
out of fuel before getting back...


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Fleming, William
wrote:

> We had rows 2200 feet long between end anchors. 4 wires, 10' high with
> posts spaced at 42', 3' deep. End posts were a larger diameter, 4' deep at
> about a 45° angle.
>
> Wires and anchors were attached to a 4' long screw in steel anchor with 8"
> plate. Ground was basically flat.
>
> No problems holding a bumper crop.
>
>
>
> *Bill Fleming*
>
> *Montana State University*
>
> *Western Ag Research Center*
>
> *580 Quast Lane*
>
> *Corvallis, MT 59828*
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Arthur Kelly
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 6:24 AM
> *To:* Apple-Crop
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Tall spindle trellis
>
>
>
> What is the longest length of trellis for tall spindle apple planting that
> growers have experience with?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Art Kelly
>
> Kelly Orchards
>
> Acton, ME
>
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[apple-crop] Stink Bug News

[Hugh Thomas]

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/02/26/stinkbugs-winter-cold-nation-insects-animals-science/
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Re: [apple-crop] Southwest Injury

[Hugh Thomas]

Greg, My "gut" tells me grafting tape will not help. I think an open wound
will heal better. I suppose the SW side thawed and quickly refroze.
Somewhere I have seen adhesive backed insulation that has a peel-off
coating. If this were white and had UV protection, strips a few inches wide
and a foot or two long could be stuck to the south -southwest side of trees
to prevent this from happening. As far as bridge grafting, this is beyond
me. Seems like a replant would be cheaper/faster, I don't know. I paint
newly planted trees with a cheap 2 gallon hand pump sprayer. 3 or 4 to 1
paint with water, and I can spray 1000 trees in 3-4 hours.  I walk the rows
on the S.E. side and then the S.W. side. I use the Ace Hardware sprayer on
sale for $9.99 (reg 12.99) and just toss the sprayer after the job is done.

Hugh Thomas
Stevensville, MT


On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 9:30 AM,  wrote:

> Greg;
>
> We get the same damage here in Southern California, but from sunburn, not
> Southwest Injury.  But the damage is the same, dead cambium layer and
> sunken bark.  Besides robbing vigor from the tree, here it also attracts
> borers who take advantage of the tree's inability to sap out the maggot,
> and exploit the edges of the injury.  The wounds will not heal; they may
> eventually be covered by cambium growing from either side, like a pruning
> stump is covered over.
>
> Bridge grafting is easier on shorter injuries like vole and rabbit damage;
> the problem with SWI is that the wounds are long and narrow. Cutting the
> tree off and letting a latent bud sprout may be a viable option depending
> on the damage, but you will have to weigh the loss of productivity against
> how long it would take if you just pruned the tree hard and let it try to
> heal the SWI.
>
> Painting trunks white, especially with an airless sprayer, seems way less
> trouble than any of this.
>
> Kevin Hauser
> Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery
> Riverside, California
> Nakifuma, Uganda, East Africa
>
>  On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:42:00 -0400, "Peck, Greg" 
> wrote:
> > Apple-Crop participants,
> >
> > Like everyone else in the Eastern half of the US, we've had a
> particularly
> > cold and snowy winter in Virginia. Not surprisingly, I am starting to
> hear
> > reports about Southwest injury to young trees. While there is a lot of
> > information available on how to prevent southwest injury, I have not
> been
> > able to find much information on how to deal with the trunks after the
> > damage has been done. Typically, growers in Virginia have do not paint
> > trunks with latex paint, but many will probably reconsider that decision
> in
> > future years.
> >
> > Many trees are probably not going to make it, but I'm wondering if
> anyone
> > has experience trying to save some of the less severely injured trees
> with
> > bridge-grafts. How about wrapping the bark with grafting tape to try to
> get
> > the wounds to heal? (I'm guessing that this will have a low success rate
> > because the tissue has already dried out.) Depending upon how far into
> the
> > rootstock the split extends and the age of the tree, we might also try
> > cutting off the scion and hoping an advantageous bud breaks dormancy.
> >
> > Any other suggestions from those who have to deal with Southwest Injury
> on
> > a more annual basis?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Greg
> > 
> > Gregory Michael Peck, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor of Horticulture
> > Virginia Tech
> > Alson H. Smith, Jr. Agricultural Research and Extension Center
> > 595 Laurel Grove Road
> > Winchester, VA 22602 USA
> > 540/869-2560 ext 19
> > greg.p...@vt.edu<mailto:greg.p...@vt.edu>
> > arec.vaes.vt.edu/alson-h-smith
> > www.anr.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit/<http://www.anr.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit/>
> >
> blogs.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit-horticulture<
> http://blogs.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit-horticulture>
> > www.facebook.com/VtechPomology<http://www.facebook.com/VtechPomology>
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Re: [apple-crop] fresh fruit health benefits

[Hugh Thomas]

"Apples fight heart disease, cancer and strokes" see
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-36536/Apples-fight-heart-disease-cancer-strokes.html



On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 10:35 AM, David Doud  wrote:

> someone needs to make a nice poster from this -
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140331194030.htm
>
> "Eating seven or more portions of fruit and vegetables a day reduces your
> risk of death at any point in time by 42 percent compared to eating less
> than one portion, reports a new study. This is the first study to link
> fruit and vegetable consumption with all-cause, cancer and heart disease
> deaths in a nationally-representative population, the first to quantify
> health benefits per-portion, and the first to identify the types of fruit
> and vegetable with the most benefit."
>
> ""We all know that eating fruit and vegetables is healthy, but the size
> of the effect is staggering," says Dr Oyinlola Oyebode of UCL's Department
> of Epidemiology & Public Health, lead author of the study. "The clear
> message here is that the more fruit and vegetables you eat, the less likely
> you are to die at any age. Vegetables have a larger effect than fruit, but
> fruit still makes a real difference. If you're happy to snack on carrots or
> other vegetables, then that is a great choice but if you fancy something
> sweeter, a banana or any fruit will also do you good." "
>
> David Doud
> grower, IN
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Glyphosate alternatives

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill, sounds like a good choice. I called about the availability - 10lb
case is $1150. Know any place I can get a smaller quantity?


On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Fleming, William
wrote:

> Choteau for preemergent control sprayed in the fall works well for me.
> Lasts all season, any knockdown sprays in the growing season are very
> limited.
>
> Of course, read the label.
>
>
>
> *Bill Fleming*
>
> *Montana State University*
>
> *Western Ag Research Center*
>
> *580 Quast Lane*
>
> *Corvallis, MT 59828*
>
>
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Glen Koehler
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 08, 2014 2:01 PM
> *To:* Apple-crop LISTSERVER
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Glyphosate alternatives
>
>
>
>  A Maine apple grower is exploring alternatives to using glyphosate
> (e.g. Roundup etc.) for vegetation control in tree rows.  The reason is
> concern about immediate and long term effect of glyphosate drift onto
> trunks.  Despite efforts to reduce drift and accurately target herbicide
> application, grower feels there is still too much risk of trunk contact.
>  There are some lower trunk cankers, but whether these are due in part to
> previous glyphosate exposure not determined.
>
>
>
>  Orchard is ca. 10 acre pick your own.  Ground cover system is
>  permanent sod alleys/row middles with vegetation suppression in the tree
> row during growing season, with moderate regrowth allowed in late summer -
> early fall for protection against winter low temperatures.  The trees are
> ca. 15 year old Mac and Cortland on M26.  New plantings will be tall
> spindle.
>
>
>
> Previous tree row vegetation management has been annual glyphosate
> application in May-June.  The objective is to find program that will
> provide similar results with less risk of trunk injury than associated with
> glyphosate.
>
>
>
> New approach being considered is tree row application of 2,4-D (for
> annual and perennial broadleaves) + Poast (for annual and perennial
> grasses) in post petal fall period.
>
> Gramoxone (paraquat) as alternative burn down herbicide not acceptable
> because of acute toxicity risk.
>
> Rely provides similar postemergent efficacy as glyphosate (though only
> Fair vs. Good for perennial grass and perennial broadleaf), but may also
> share the same trunk hazard as glyphosate.
>
>
>
>  Alley sod management will continue to be regular close mowing.
>
>
>
>  Your thoughts on this approach, and the reasons for making this
> change (i.e. concern about glyphosate) will be appreciated.
>
>
>
> --
> Glen Koehler
> University of Maine Cooperative Extension
> Pest Management Office
> Voice:  207-581-3882
> 491 College Avenue, Orono, ME  04473
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential

[Hugh Thomas]

Mosbah and everyone else,

In my experience with Honeycrisp on Bud 9, I had a few trees runt-out when
I put them on a irrigation schedule that let the soil become too dry. I am
new at all of this and let the soil get to the level of being moist (at 4”
depth)  but not wet between waterings. I used an Irrometer at 14" and
cycled the trees between 50 and 20. In all my 40+ years of growing, this
would be sound horticultural practice, but with Honeycrisp on Bud 9, this
doesn’t work well. I believe Honeycrisp on Bud 9 must be watered past the
existing roots, (to encourage deep roots) and then deeply watered again
well before any signs of stress. I talked to a top Honeycrisp grower in
Washington and he told me to “never let them get even slightly dry.” I
changed my watering schedule to apply 1.25” of irrigation every 5 days in
the summer, and the trees are doing well. My thoughts…


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar <
parmarch_...@dataone.in> wrote:

> I SHALL BE GRATEFUL IF ANY OF YOU COULD SEND ME THE ADDRESS OF THIS
> MAGAZINE "HORTICULTURAL NEWS".
>
> THANKS IN ADVANCE.
>
>
> Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
> 164/3 Jail Road
> Mandi HP 175001
> INDIA
> 01905-222810; 094181-81323
> www.fruitipedia.com
> Blog: http://fruitipedia.blogspot.in/
>
> -Original Message- From: Kushad, Mosbah M
> Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:23 AM
> To: Apple-crop discussion list ; Jon Clements
>
> Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential
>
> Drought can be devastating, especially to honeycrisp on some rootstocks.
>  I am not in my office to look up the data, but the graft union of
> Honeycrisp grafted to some of the Geneva rootstocks and Malling 26 Emla
> dried up and split suggesting that the union is not very strong.  The trees
> are about five years old trained to the tall spindle tied to four wires.
>  The wires did little to prevent the snapping of the graft union.
> 
> From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-bounces@
> virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Hugh Thomas [hughthoma...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 3:09 PM
> To: Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
> Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential
>
> Nikki,
> I don't have any direct experience with drought on apples but I'm guessing
> the problems will be huge. I lived in California for over 20 years and 3
> irrigations in California during the summer is almost not enough for many
> "drought tolerant" trees. I will be very interested in knowing how it all
> works out for you. Best of luck.
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Jon Clements  mailto:jon.cleme...@umass.edu>> wrote:
> You forgot to mention how A-Maze-'N-Apples is doing?
>
> http://www.goodfruit.com/a-mazing-new-technology/
>
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:31 PM,  dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com>> wrote:
> After a devastating 2012 when most of the northern Illinois growers lost
> most of their crop as the result of the extremely warm March and early
> bloom that was destroyed by late frost, we had a bumper crop in 2013.  We
> lost 70% of our crop in 2012!  Despite thinning by hand, the trees over
> produced so much that we had the bumper crop even after thinning.  Since we
> irrigate, we have not been bothered much by drought situations, but the
> trees are still under tremendous stress due to all the weather extremes in
> the past two years.
>
> Anticipating thinner bloom this spring, we also have a much cooler spring.
> Green tip started around the 15th of April for us and we did not see pink
> until the first week of May.  Zestar, Liberty Snowsweet and Pristine are
> now bloom.  Some trees are very thin on bloom, and we still have others at
> tight cluster.  Right now we have varieties from tight cluster to pink to
> bloom, which we generally have never seen.  Normally we are at pink and
> bloom in all four orchards at the same time We are anticipating a very long
> bloom period since our daytime highs have been in the high 40's to low 50's
> since bloom began on May 10/11.  We have also received over 4" of rain
> since that time as well!
>
> The crop load is very sporadic in the trees that are now in bloom and we
> anticipated a light load, but never anticipated such a stretched out
> spring. We are still not sure what the overall crop load will be like until
> we get some warmer weather and see how much fruit sets.  We had lows of 35
> and 38 Thursday and Friday night and the bees have just begun to fly.  The
> predicted temperatures for the coming week should bring out the rest of
> bloom and the bees, with highs predicted in the mid 60's and lower 70's.
>  We have had 273 DD

[apple-crop] Bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Next spring, I'm thinking of planting Honeycrisp on Bud 118 with a 4x12
spacing. Anyone with any ideas or critical remarks on this would be
appreciated.
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Re: [apple-crop] Bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

I'm guessing you don't have Bud 9, because some people complain that they
have too little vigor. Many plant this rootstock 2x11 to fill the space.
Bud 9 has red or maroon leaves, you can see this with the suckers. I have
most of my trees on Bud 9, but they seem to grow slowly here in western
Montana. We have about a 115 day growing season and I'm looking for a cold
weather rootstock with more vigor. As an aside, I've read that 118 has few
if any suckers. I'm thinking (and hoping) that tightly packed Bud 118 will
have less vigor do to competition for root space.


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:22 AM, Hal Wentzel  wrote:

> I planted Honeycrisp on what I thought was Bud 9 on 4x15.  I have a strong
> suspicion that they were on Bud 118, but I can't verify that.  I've had a
> heck of time with their vigor.  It took them about 6 years to calm down,
> and I've had to do some heavy pruning to contain their growth.
>
>
> On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Hugh Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>> Next spring, I'm thinking of planting Honeycrisp on Bud 118 with a 4x12
>> spacing. Anyone with any ideas or critical remarks on this would be
>> appreciated.
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Hal Wentzel
> Pleasant View Orchard
> W6050 Chapman Road
> Niagara, WI  54151
> 715-927-2050
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Dennis,
Do you irrigate the Bud 9 trees?


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 11:25 AM,  wrote:

>  Interesting, Hal.  We planted Honeycrisp on Bud 9 back in 2004 and they
> are only about 6' to 8' even now..produce a good crop, but never grew
> as we expected.  In fact, we are planning on removing them in the next two
> years or so.  Replanted more in 2006 on M 26 and they have produced
> beautifully.  Spacing was based on previous tree rows...we had M7 planted
> in the same rows previously with 10 x 14 spacing.  Planted the M 26 with 4
> x 14 spacing and trained to tall spindle.  Best Honeycrisp producing trees
> we have.  No fire blight issues and do trunk sprays with Lorsban to keep
> the borers off them.  We are also doing some trial rows on NIC 29 with
> Zestar to see how they perform to tall spindle.
>
> I'm sure you have made sure the graft unions were above grade. but if your
> guys are like ours, we have to make a double effort to make sure those
> graft unions don't get buried along with the roots!  I'm sure you are aware
> that if the union does get below grade, the dwarfing effect of the
> rootstock is gone.
>
> Dennis Norton
> IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
> 15908 Hebron Rd.
> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
> Office (815) 648-4467
> Mobile (815) 228-2174
> Fax (609) 228-2174
> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Hal Wentzel 
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list 
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 01, 2014 7:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Bud 118
>
> I planted Honeycrisp on what I thought was Bud 9 on 4x15.  I have a strong
> suspicion that they were on Bud 118, but I can't verify that.  I've had a
> heck of time with their vigor.  It took them about 6 years to calm down,
> and I've had to do some heavy pruning to contain their growth.
>
>
> On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Hugh Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>> Next spring, I'm thinking of planting Honeycrisp on Bud 118 with a 4x12
>> spacing. Anyone with any ideas or critical remarks on this would be
>> appreciated.
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Hal Wentzel
> Pleasant View Orchard
> W6050 Chapman Road
> Niagara, WI  54151
> 715-927-2050
>
> --
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Allen,
I have silt loam, holds a little more water a little longer, but the one
118 I have here on our property is doing very well. What is your opinion on
the "sandy loam" angle, faster drainage?


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:04 PM, David Kollas  wrote:

> Allen Teach:
>
> The letter from Kevin Versnyder does not appear in my inbox, but in your
> included reference it makes me ask this question:
> Does someone have information that Geneva 202 influences fruit size, or
> produces bud-union failures?
>
> David Kollas
> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Allen Teach - Sunrise Orchard <
> sunr...@mwt.net> wrote:
>
> > In late March 2009 I saw amazing block of Honeycrisp on B118 very close
> to Gebber's pack house in WA.  The rows were 8' apart but I do not remember
> the other spacing.  I would like to see the block now but at the time it
> was very impressive.
> >
> > Allen Teach
> > Gays Mills, WI
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Kevin Versnyder
> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2014 8:35 PM
> > To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> > Subject: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118
> >
> > Hugh, I have some honeys on bud 118 at 4 ft apart and it's working well.
> I have sandy loam soil so that's the only reason it's working. Return bloom
> hasn't been spectacular so I really think more dwarfing stocks are the way
> to go or maybe simply blossom thinning would be the answer? This year I put
> them in on g202 so hopefully the smaller apple it produces will help with
> bitter pit. We did lose 51 trees to bud union failure before we even got
> them out of the box. It sounds like g41 offers the best return bloom
> similar to g30 which is the best I've seen.
> >
> > Kevin J. VerSnyder
> > ___
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Re: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Keven, I meant to address my last email to you. I have silt loam, holds a
little more water a little longer than sandy loam, but the one 118 I have
here on our property is doing very well. What is your opinion on the "sandy
loam" angle, faster drainage?


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:

> Allen,
> I have silt loam, holds a little more water a little longer, but the one
> 118 I have here on our property is doing very well. What is your opinion on
> the "sandy loam" angle, faster drainage?
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:04 PM, David Kollas  wrote:
>
>> Allen Teach:
>>
>> The letter from Kevin Versnyder does not appear in my inbox, but in your
>> included reference it makes me ask this question:
>> Does someone have information that Geneva 202 influences fruit size, or
>> produces bud-union failures?
>>
>> David Kollas
>> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>>
>>
>> On Jun 1, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Allen Teach - Sunrise Orchard <
>> sunr...@mwt.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In late March 2009 I saw amazing block of Honeycrisp on B118 very close
>> to Gebber's pack house in WA.  The rows were 8' apart but I do not remember
>> the other spacing.  I would like to see the block now but at the time it
>> was very impressive.
>> >
>> > Allen Teach
>> > Gays Mills, WI
>> >
>> > -Original Message- From: Kevin Versnyder
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2014 8:35 PM
>> > To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> > Subject: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118
>> >
>> > Hugh, I have some honeys on bud 118 at 4 ft apart and it's working
>> well. I have sandy loam soil so that's the only reason it's working. Return
>> bloom hasn't been spectacular so I really think more dwarfing stocks are
>> the way to go or maybe simply blossom thinning would be the answer? This
>> year I put them in on g202 so hopefully the smaller apple it produces will
>> help with bitter pit. We did lose 51 trees to bud union failure before we
>> even got them out of the box. It sounds like g41 offers the best return
>> bloom similar to g30 which is the best I've seen.
>> >
>> > Kevin J. VerSnyder
>> > ___
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>> > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>> >
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Re: [apple-crop] Deer, Fireblight, Liquid Fence

[Hugh Thomas]

I've tried many products and most of the ones mentioned in this thread.
Liquid Fence = Ranch Dressing. Dried Blood is deer code for Merlot. Here in
Montana, if a deer is hungry, he will eat anything. I finally put in an
eight foot high tensile fence.


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:59 AM,  wrote:

>  Lee, we use a product called Repells All by Bonide that lasts up to 2
> months and is made up of  Dried Blood ,  Putrescent whole egg solids,
> Garlic oil, Acetic Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Cloves, Fish oil, Onions, Meat
> meal, Seaweed, Vanillin, Vitamin E,  and Wintergreen oil.  It comes in a 6
> lb. bag as granules and is also available in liquid.  The granules are a
> bit less expensive and are rainfast within 6 hours.  A six pound bag costs
> about $30 and covers about 5,000 square feet.   We use it in our sugar cube
> melons to keep the raccoons off them and around our young trees to keep the
> deer off them.  One bag covers about 3 to 4 400' rows of trees.  I don't
> know if this would be less expensive for you, but the product really does
> work for us.
>
> Dennis Norton
> IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
> 15908 Hebron Rd.
> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
> Office (815) 648-4467
> Mobile (815) 228-2174
> Fax (609) 228-2174
> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* lee elliott 
> *To:* apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> *Sent:* Monday, June 09, 2014 7:52 AM
> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Deer, Fireblight, Liquid Fence
>
> Deer browsing on young trees is spreading fireblight, I know this is true,
> a small fenced in area in my orchard has little to no fireblight while the
> rest is fire blight city, I am using Liquid Fence,on newly planted trees,
> its a product made from putrified egg whites, this stuff really works but
> has to be applied every 10 days or after major rain storms, problem is its
> is very expensive, a bottle that treats 4 gallons is $30 at the local farm
> store. I would like to know how to make some myself, does anyone know how
> to do this?? Lee Elliott, winchester, Illinois
> 
> On Fri, 6/6/14, apple-crop-requ...@virtualorchard.net <
> apple-crop-requ...@virtualorchard.net> wrote:
>
>  Subject: apple-crop Digest, Vol 42, Issue 14
>  To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>  Date: Friday, June 6, 2014, 11:00 AM
>
>  Send apple-crop mailing list
>  submissions to
>   apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>
>  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
>  to
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>
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>
>  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>  specific
>  than "Re: Contents of apple-crop digest..."
>
>
>  Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Sprayer Calibration Between
>  Training Styles (Fleming, William)
>
>
>  --
>
>  Message: 1
>  Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 09:17:17 -0600
>  From: "Fleming, William" 
>  To: Apple-crop discussion list 
>  Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Sprayer Calibration Between
>  Training Styles
>  Message-ID:
>   <0ed0d5ff52b2b3469bc620dba56ed85c8963169...@excms.msu.montana.edu>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>  Nick, as long as you are getting sufficient coverage in both
>  growing systems I would personally find it easier to mix up
>  two different tanks with different quantities of material
>  rather than mess with swapping nozzles.
>
>
>
>  Bill Fleming
>
>  Montana State University
>
>  Western Ag Research Center
>
>  Corvallis, MT 59828
>
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
>  [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
>  On Behalf Of Nick Lucking
>  Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 12:54 AM
>  To: apple-crop discussion list
>  Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Sprayer Calibration Between
>  Training Styles
>
>
>
>  Thanks for the responses. So when you guys use the
>  spray controllers do you try to maintain the same GPA across
>  all blocks? Seems like if you don't have one (like me)
>  and you mix a tank to apply across multiple training styles
>  with varying row spacing the pesticide rate per acre would
>  be out of whack between them.
>
>
>
>  Here's my scenario. 1.5 acres is conventional free
>  standing and 1.5 is tall spindle. When I did TRV
>  calculations last season and checked the GPM of sprayer
>  nozzles obviously with the difference in row spacing the
>  rate was way higher for the tall spindle block. When I
>  adjusted the gear speed so the GPA would match the free
>  standing block, tractor speed was way too fast ~4 MPH.
>
>
>
>  I suppose I could get another set of smaller nozzles for the
>  tall spindle block to try to keep things even between
>  blocks.
>
>
>
>  Any furthe

Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout

[Hugh Thomas]

I have only two years experience with this, but I'll give my opinion. A lot
depends on your rootstock. A dwarf rootstock such as Bud 9 seems to do well
at 11 ft. spacing on the rows. I have seen 9 ft. Bud 9 that hampered light
penetration. I have Bud 9 trees planted 30 inches x 12 feet and I believe
this is a good choice, but my tractor is 70" wide, would have gone to 11 ft
if I had a smaller tractor. I assume your location gets cold, ( -30 ?) so a
cold hardly rootstock would be good, say a G11 or Bud 9. Bud 9 can get to
10 feet, from what I have seen.


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Matt Pellerin 
wrote:

> I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard.  I
> will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year.  I would like to plant
> the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the
> customers can reach more of the fruit.  My orchard tractor is 54" wide.
>  How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment?  Also,
> what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Matthew Pellerin
> Agricultural Manager
> Treworgy Family Orchards
> 3876 Union St
> Levant, ME 04456
> www.treworgyorchards.com
> 207-884-8354
>
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>
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Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout

[Hugh Thomas]

Michael,
How much damage to the trees do you have do to children? (and careless
adults)


On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Michael Vaughn  wrote:

> I have a Tall Spindle Orchard (PYO) in the Endless Mts. of Northern
> Pennsylvania about 1/2hr south of Binghamton, NY.  The planting is in its
> 6th year; 3ft spacing with 13 ft between rows, approx. 3 acres.   The
> rootstock is Bud 9 and M-9 depending on the variety.  Real easy to prune
> and maintain.  Minimum to NO ladders except at the 10Ft + height as the
> trees matured.   My best customers are
> families with children under 15 yrs.  because they can all reach 80% of
> the fruit.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Kevin Hauser 
> wrote:
>
>> This photo is at a PYO in Massachusetts not far from Belchertown that has
>> nice-sized trees for pedestrian picking, with the highest apples within
>> kid-sitting-on-the-shoulder's reach.  Marty is 5'2" and so you can see the
>> scale.  The clerk didn't know the rootstock, but my guess is something
>> smaller than Bud. 9 or M9.
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100097230/PYO%20Mass.JPG
>>
>> Kevin Hauser
>> Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery
>> Riverside, California
>> Nakifuma, Uganda
>>
>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:29:24 -0400, Arthur Kelly 
>> wrote:
>> > Maximum yield isn't necessarily the same thing as maximum sales.  In my
>> > opinion, the selling is more important than anything else.  Yes, good
>> > yields of good quality fruit is important, but being good at selling and
>> > how much you are able to get for what you have to sell trumps everything
>> > else.  If you are able to sell for $40.00/bu what needs to happen to get
>> > that price in terms of customer experience is  the priority.
>> >
>> > p.s. No, we are not able to get that much but there are farms in the
>> area
>> > that do.  We still wholesale a large percentage of the crop.
>> >
>> > Art Kelly
>> > Kelly Orchards
>> > Acton, Maine
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 2:13 PM, David Doud  wrote:
>> >
>> >> not an expert here, but it's my understanding in a spindle system the
>> >> space between trees in the row is determined by what renewal pruning
>> will
>> >> fill and that much over 3' between trees in most situations would
>> require
>> >> permanent woody architecture to keep the space filled, which brings
>> about
>> >> several horticultural challenges -
>> >>
>> >> then the space between rows versus the height of the trees becomes a
>> >> calculation to maximize yield -
>> >>
>> >> in a you-pick situation I'd suggest that maximum yield would be a
>> >> secondary consideration to logistics - that wider rows and shorter
>> trees
>> >> for convenience and safety would override a certain percentage of
>> maximum
>> >> theoretical yield -
>> >>
>> >> I shudder to consider what strategies the public might employ to
>> harvest
>> >> that beautiful apple just out of their reach...
>> >>
>> >> if my understanding is incorrect, feel free to challenge -
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Jul 3, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Matt Pellerin wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the responses.  I was thinking of going to a 10 x 3 orchard
>> >> growing Honeycrisp on M26 and Macoun on Bud 9.  I think the 10 x 3
>> >> spacing
>> >> puts the tree height at 8.5' which will work pretty well for
>> >> pick-your-own.
>> >>  On this kind of spacing, will I still be within the Tall Spindle
>> >>  category?
>> >>  Will I have to make adjustments in my pruning methodology or will the
>> >> typical tall spindle pruning and training recommendations work?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Matt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:26 AM,  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I concur with Dennis' evaluation of Dr. Robinson's videos; this system
>> >>> has
>> >>> forced even stubborn high-chill varieties to transition from
>> vegetative
>> >>> mode to fruiting mode in hot climates and the tropics.
>> >>>
>> >>> I wanted to address Matthew's desire to keep the trees around 6' tall.
>> >>> This sounds like it would take a very dwarfing rootstock like M27; do
>> >>> any
>> >>> of our growers have experience training these as tall spindle?
>> >>>
>> >>> Kevin Hauser
>> >>> Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery
>> >>> Riverside, California
>> >>> Nakifuma, Uganda
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 00:23:19 -0500, 
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > matthew,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > We have been growing tall spindle in northern Illinois in a
>> >>> pick-your-own
>> >>> > orchard for around 5 or 6 years now.  The system has been improving
>> >>> > over
>> >>> > the years and currently the newer spacing being recommended by Dr.
>> >>> Terence
>> >>> > Robinson
>> >>> > from Cornell is around 12' x 3'.  I highly recommend watching the
>> >>> > videos
>> >>> > at YouTube he did at the Winter Apple School in Henderson County, NC
>> >>> found
>> >>> > at http://youtu.be/gJF4wLgXnK8
>> >>> >
>> >>> > After viewing this video and others on the BRCC TV - The Educational
>> >>> > Channel on YouTube covering the Tall Spindle System,

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

There is a lot of labor involved with the production of apples. For US
growers to be competitive, this implies that the price of labor will have
to fall here in the US or the cost of labor in China will need to rise.
(not likely) Another factor is the cost of fumigation.(?) Shipping is not a
real factor as they will ship directly to the West Coast for less than 5
cents per pound. I Owned a pottery back in the 80's, and when China
starting shipping to the US, the wholesale prices of their pottery was
about what I had to pay for the raw ingredients. It was truly shocking.
China is the largest grower of apples, outproducing the US by 9 fold. Also,
they are great farmers and the apple is a native tree for them. This is big
trouble for the US grower.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:41 AM, Fleming, William  wrote:

> To me it just seems strange that we would allow importing apples from any
> country when we depend on exports ourselves to market the excess amount of
> fruit we produce.
> Maybe I'm just looking at it with too much common sense.
> Then again many times in trade agreements allowing an import of a product
> is traded in exchange for export of another. Who knows, we might be trading
> apples for flip-flops.
> Doesn't benefit the apple grower but may benefit an entirely different
> industry, and a politician's campaign contributors.
>
> Bill Fleming
> Montana State University
> Western Ag Research Center
> 580 Quast Lane
> Corvallis, MT 59828
>
> -Original Message-
> From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Mike Arvay
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:26 AM
> To: Apple-crop discussion list
> Subject: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
>
> I'm curious on what the group thinks about this proposed amendment to the
> U.S. Fruit and Vegetable Regulation which will allow the import of apples
> into the U.S. from China.
>
> I don't want this to become a "All things from China are bad." thread.
> But I can see both negative and positive possibilities on allowing this.
> They do recommend additional measures and actions other than the standard
> Port of Entry Inspection.
>
>
> http://www.regulations.gov/?utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=13804591&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--B9po2Wh9EOEarH4oSyBng8hr9QeyW3LJQbTqn5DyDzYxmuMr2ciJZaLS1t7JjLaavRgsui8ZQ9El8DY6ATo7HsWEkbg&_hsmi=13804591#!documentDetail;D=APHIS-2014-0003-0001
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike Arvay
> Small Grower in Central Indiana.
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Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

The only Western country without a minimum wage is Switzerland. The
unemployment rate there is 3%. A huge problem here in the US is that we pay
people not to work (unemployment checks) and have a minimum wage. If the
growers in China were forced to pay our wage rates, then there would be
little problems with competition from them. However, this will never
happen.

For the US: 1. Get rid of minimum wage laws. 2. Reform the tort laws where
law suits are at a minimum, and the loser must pay all court costs and
attorney's fees. (Can you imagine suing your employer in China?) 3.
Terminate all unemployment payments. In just a few weeks, a grower could
hire workers dirt cheap. The market would then self correct. Otherwise, the
restrictive regulations here in the US will put growers out of business.
The problem is not China's cheap products, but the Federal and states
government's expensive regulations. This is a no-brainer.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Steven Bibula 
wrote:

> Well said Peter.  Yet enforcement of practices requires transparency,
> regulatory monitoring and political will that are all lacking with respect
> to the US’ premier competitor for prominence on the world stage as well as
> our second largest creditor (second only to the Federal Reserve Bank I
> think?).
>
>
>
> A plus: Chinese apples in the US market will result in a net increased
> demand for my U-Pick apples.
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> Gorham ME
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Peter J. Jentsch
> *Sent:* Friday, August 15, 2014 12:53 PM
> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
>
> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
>
>
>
> China is the world’s largest consumer of fruits and vegetables, with a
> growing appetite for high-quality produce. China is also an expanding
> import market (mostly fresh fruits and, to a lesser extent, processed
> products). The value of China’s produce imports increased sevenfold between
> 1992 and 2001, making it one of the world’s fastest growing import markets.
> (Global Trade Patterns in Fruits and Vegetables Economic Research
> Service/USDA).
>
> Yet China is producing almost half of world total apple production,
> increasing from 33,263,000; 35,985,000 and 37,000,000 metric tonnes from
> 2010, 2011 and 2012 respectively while increasing world exports by 10%
> between 2000 to 2006. (Source: World Markets and Trade, US Department of
> Agriculture, Foreign Agricultural Service, May 2007). However, 10%; volume
> in terms of of world export is only 3% of their China's total production!!!
>
> The US has been increasing their shipments of high volume fresh apple to
> China. We will likely continue increase of apple exports until China has
> ramped up their volume and quality of production. Its been my understanding
> that even the Chinese people prefer US apple due to food safety concerns.
>
> Western US apple trade to China and world markets may be well for Eastern
> growers as it will likely reduce the shipments of Washington State apples
> to eastern markets and increase supply for locally grown fruit?
>
> I would favor increased tree fruit trade with China under competitive
> trade conditions based on standardized production practices. As it now
> stands, the regulations do not require the use of production practice
> guidelines to the standards which U.S growers need to abide, creating a
> competitive disadvantage for the US tree fruit producer. Pest management
> practices, worker protection standards and child labor laws should  be
> instituted within the guidelines of production practices, certified by US
> inspection of farms and facilities, just as we have here in the US. Its
> likely that MRL standards will need to be assessed and met, yet there's no
> mention of MRL's in the regulation. The emphasis in the bill on
> phytosanitation for oriental fruit moth is outdated and concerns for newer
> invasive species should receive a hard review (too late for BMSB and SWD
> invasion over the pst 15 years, having caused millions of $$ in production
> and research loss).
>
>
>
> That said, China has not been known for their recent history of protecting
> human rights, product quality or safety standards and should be pressured
> into compliance by world markets to 'come clean'.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> "The best way out is always through" - Robert Frost”
>
> Peter J. Jentsch
> Hudson Valley Laboratory Superintendent
> Senior Extension Associate - Entomology
> Department of Entomology, Cornell University
> Hudson Valley Research Lab
> P.O. Box 727, 3357 Rt. 9W
> Highland, NY 12528
>
> Office: 845-691-7151
> Cell: 845-417-7465
> FAX: 845-691-2719
>
> E-mail: p...@cornell.edu
> http://blogs.cornell.edu/jentsch/
> --
>
> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net <
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net> on behalf of Ginda Fisher <
> l...@ginda.us>
> *Sent:* Friday, A

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum
wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This
is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If
minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per
hour, or even better, $500 per hour?

When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free
market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply
because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to
remain competitive.

Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the
poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world
experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if
the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal
for this kid to work for $6 per hour, *even* *if he wants to*. He is denied
this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the crap he
gets from government schools.

I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, "More or less
government," when one makes their living from taxes collected by the
government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A  wrote:

> At the risk of being "just another university person" weighing in on this,
> I agree with David's points.
>
> Jimmy Buffet said it well ... "The gods' honest truth is, it's not that
> simple" ... and that applies when it comes to free market economics and
> lots of other things. Governments, laws, and policies that consider the
> public good and the needs of those at the lower end of the socioeconomic
> scale are essential.  Our national policies are fraught with political
> motivations and a variety of other dishonesties that taint the real issues,
> but it is an oversimplification to expect that "all would be fine" if we
> abandoned minimum wage laws and cancelled unemployment benefits.
>
> And I admit that this is my personal view and not a research finding from
> my day job as an entomologist.
>
> Rick Weinzierl
>
> Professor and Extension Entomologist
> IL SARE PDP Coordinator
> Department of Crop Sciences, University of Illinois
> S-334 Turner Hall, 1102 S. Goodwin Avenue
> Urbana, IL 61801
> 217-244-2126
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David A. Rosenberger
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:31 PM
> To: Apple-crop discussion list
> Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
>
> So far as I know, there is no political quid pro quo for decisions on what
> products can be imported into the US or exported to other countries, and
> scientific concerns about importation of pests are given serious
> consideration.  Nevertheless, Bill's suggestion about trading apples for
> flip-flops hints at some factors that may ultimately impact negotiator
> positioning.  In this case, perhaps we should substitute "soybeans" for
> flip-flops.  Has anyone checked recently to see the value of soybeans and
> other ag exports from the US to China? And then of  course, we wouldn't
> want to  anger China into massive selling of the US securities that they
> have purchased over the past several decades while we spent our wealth on
> meaningless wars. Thus, we are inextricably linked in a world-wide economy
> that at times runs rough-shod over individual winners and losers.  In many
> cases, it is almost impossible to predict who those winners and losers will
> be as governments tug on the economic and
>  political strings that interconnect countries.
>
> Reducing or eliminating minimum wage laws and unemployment insurance would
> not and will not solve any apple farmer problems related to US competitive
> capabilities in the world market. It would only increase the inequities and
> distancing of haves and have-nots in our county, inequities that ultimately
> contributed to the riots in major cities in the 1960's and that have
> contributed to current problems in Fergusson, MO.  "Those who ignore
> history are doomed to repeat it."  It is very difficult to have a vibrant
> economy in the midst of anarchy. Increasing the gap between rich and poor
> while at the same time burning the bridges that allow social progress for
> those born into poverty will almost certainly increase the the probability
> of lawlessness among those without any hope for the future. Apple growers
> who think that they could live on the current minimum wage should try it
> for a year, recognizing of course that one must start the experiment
> without any housing, without a car, a
>  nd with no credit rating.
>
> If you really believe that the free markets (i.e., no minimum wage, no
> unemployment benefits) will solve our problems consider this:  We already
> have a health care system that ranks somewhere around 29th when compared
> with those of other nations (a

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

s expensive than
> paying minimum wages?
>
>  Obviously not all crime is caused by poverty, and our society already
> has more than enough crime even with minimum wage laws in place.  My point
> is that the straight-line assumption that reducing wages reduces costs is
> overly simplistic because it ignores the complexity of society and the
> unexpected costs of “externals” that impact every business enterprise in a
> destabilized society.
>
>  I am currently on a trip during which my wife and I have driven nearly
> 2000 miles through PA, OH, MI, IN, IL, WI, and MN. It appears to me that
> the interstate highway system is is worse condition now than at anytime
> since I began driving 51 years ago. We have saved a lot of taxes by
> delaying maintenance on highways and bridges, but as a result, all of us
> are paying more for wear on our cars, delays due to slow traffic, and
> perhaps even increases in accidents attributable to poor roads.  If the
> current trend continues, apple growers will soon be obliged to ship apples
> only in trucks that have air-cushion suspension because I suspect the rough
> highways will bruise apples riding to market in trucks just as much as they
> bruise my butt riding in a mid-size car. The need for a public highway
> system, along with numerous other government “services”, illustrates why a
> functional government and taxation system are essential for a civilized
> society.  There is certainly plenty of government waste that should be
> eliminated, but I suspect that most of that “waste” is actually going to
> the wealthy (think lobbyists, beltway bandits, defense contractors, farm
> subsidies) rather than to the welfare segment of our society.
>
>
> 
> Dave Rosenberger, Professor Emeritus
>  Dept. of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology
>  Cornell’s Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
>    Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
> http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/blog-2014/
>  
>
>  On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>
>  There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum
> wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This
> is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If
> minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per
> hour, or even better, $500 per hour?
>
>  When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free
> market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US,
> simply because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to
> remain competitive.
>
>  Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the
> poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world
> experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if
> the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal
> for this kid to work for $6 per hour, *even* *if he wants to*. He is
> denied this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the
> crap he gets from government schools.
>
>  I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, "More or
> less government," when one makes their living from taxes collected by the
> government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A <
> weinz...@illinois.edu> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of being "just another university person" weighing in on
>> this, I agree with David's points.
>>
>> Jimmy Buffet said it well ... "The gods' honest truth is, it's not that
>> simple" ... and that applies when it comes to free market economics and
>> lots of other things. Governments, laws, and policies that consider the
>> public good and the needs of those at the lower end of the socioeconomic
>> scale are essential.  Our national policies are fraught with political
>> motivations and a variety of other dishonesties that taint the real issues,
>> but it is an oversimplification to expect that "all would be fine" if we
>> abandoned minimum wage laws and cancelled unemployment benefits.
>>
>> And I admit that this is my personal view and not a research finding from
>> my day job as an entomologist.
>>
>> Rick Weinzierl
>>
>> Professor and Extension Entomologist
>> IL SARE PDP Coordinator
>> Department of Crop Sciences, University of Illinois
>> S-334 Turner Hall, 1102 S. Goodwin Avenue
>> Urbana, IL 61801
>> 21

Re: [apple-crop] theft deterrence

[Hugh Thomas]

This is a crime in some states. Find out about your state/local laws and
inform your customers that you will enforce this law. I don't think this
will drive away any customers, at least the kind you want to keep.

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> A few U-Pick customers are so brazen about their theft that they eat
> berries and apples freely in front of me while coming out of the field
> toward the register.  I also see them positively gorging in the field, as
> if this were an AUCE establishment (we charge by the picked pound).  I am
> also troubled that the most visible offenders are adults with children,
> teaching those children that theft is okay.
>
>
>
> What do you do to deter theft and improve moral conduct?  As a part of our
> effort to awaken the conscience of our customers without offending or
> implicating those who are already self controlled, we are considering
> posting the following text on a tasteful sign at appropriate an location or
> two.
>
> Feedback from you is welcome.  Other ideas are welcome too.
>
>
>
> TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
>
> Please feel free to taste the fruit so you can pick with confidence.
> Because our fruit is also our livelihood, we ask that you please limit
> yourselves and members of your party to a small sample, and enjoy the rest
> after payment.  Thank you for your understanding and business! With your
> help, we can continue to provide enjoyable U-Pick experiences for years to
> come.
>
> Gratefully,
>
> The farmers-
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares
>
> Gorham Maine
>
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] theft deterrence

[Hugh Thomas]

P.S. see this:  http://www.dailyiowan.com/2013/06/27/Metro/33732.html

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:20 AM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:

> This is a crime in some states. Find out about your state/local laws and
> inform your customers that you will enforce this law. I don't think this
> will drive away any customers, at least the kind you want to keep.
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Steven Bibula 
> wrote:
>
>> A few U-Pick customers are so brazen about their theft that they eat
>> berries and apples freely in front of me while coming out of the field
>> toward the register.  I also see them positively gorging in the field, as
>> if this were an AUCE establishment (we charge by the picked pound).  I am
>> also troubled that the most visible offenders are adults with children,
>> teaching those children that theft is okay.
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you do to deter theft and improve moral conduct?  As a part of
>> our effort to awaken the conscience of our customers without offending or
>> implicating those who are already self controlled, we are considering
>> posting the following text on a tasteful sign at appropriate an location or
>> two.
>>
>> Feedback from you is welcome.  Other ideas are welcome too.
>>
>>
>>
>> TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:
>>
>> Please feel free to taste the fruit so you can pick with confidence.
>> Because our fruit is also our livelihood, we ask that you please limit
>> yourselves and members of your party to a small sample, and enjoy the rest
>> after payment.  Thank you for your understanding and business! With your
>> help, we can continue to provide enjoyable U-Pick experiences for years to
>> come.
>>
>> Gratefully,
>>
>> The farmers-
>>
>>
>>
>> Steven Bibula
>>
>> Plowshares
>>
>> Gorham Maine
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [apple-crop] theft deterrence

[Hugh Thomas]

Put up a sign that says the customer must wash the fruit at home before
eating. Bird droppings can carry disease.

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Mark & Helen Angermayer <
angermay...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you Alan,
>
> I used to have a successful pig operation, and always wanted my
> product to be a good value for the customer, as well as myself (i.e.
> win/win) and tried to approach that w/ my fruit business.  I've met
> some fruit growers who have been abused so much by some customers,
> they view most of their customers as enemies, instead of friends,
> which is sad.
>
> Nevertheless, Sam Walton (and others) built an empire based largely
> upon customer satisfaction.  They were one of the first to have an
> extremely liberal merchandise return policy, and still do around here,
> even though some crooks take advantage.
>
> If I ever get to the point where I've been abused by customers so
> much, that I pretty much hate them, and don't trust them in general, I
> believe I'll resort to selling wholesale, or quit altogether.
>
> Keep in mind, my perspective is from the rural Midwest, where some
> percentage of the people still wave at you on the road (more so on the
> Missouri side).
>
> Mark Angermayer
> Tubbyfruits.com
>
> On 10/6/14, Alan Grout  wrote:
> > Mark and Helen:
> > You said it best; complete, concise, and correct handling of
> customers
> > with their ultimate satisfaction upper most in your priorities.
> >
> > I'll gladly pass on this correspondence to our apple PYO director Cheryl
> > Gilbert for any additional comment.  Of our apple orchards,
> approximately 60
> > acres is deer fence enclosed with about 20+ acres in new Honeycrisp.
> With
> > regards and thank you..Alan (BTW 74 yrs. old).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Alan Grout
> > alanjgr...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 6, 2014, at 10:08 AM, "Mark & Helen Angermayer"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Steven,
> >>
> >> I think your sign is a tasteful way to do it, and will probably work
> >> for most people.
> >>
> >> Just as different perspective, I've got a very small orchard (only
> >> about 300 peach trees and a few plums and apples) and I give away a
> >> lot fruit.  I charge enough to be able to give away some to each
> >> customer.  I sell them #1s at a fair price and "throw in" some seconds
> >> for free.  It makes my customers feel like they are being treated
> >> special (which is what I try to do) and makes me feel good too.
> >>
> >> I also cut up lots of free samples for my customers.  It makes for
> >> good experience for the customer.  When they have a good experience,
> >> they come back.
> >>
> >> Many years ago (before I knew anything about fruit) my wife took me to
> >> a U-pick strawberry.  I didn't want to go, but she told me (or showed
> >> me) you eat strawberries, while you pick.  I guess you might say she
> >> taught me "theft".  I never viewed it as theft, but assumed the grower
> >> charged enough to compensate for my eating.  I thought it was just
> >> part of the experience.  Had I thought the grower considered it theft,
> >> I wouldn't have eaten any berries while picking, but also may not have
> >> ever gone to the U-pick in the first place, since part of the
> >> experience of U-pick is eating some fruit while picking.  I'll also
> >> mention I consider myself a fairly honest person (I don't cheat
> >> people, don't cheat on my taxes, try to treat others like I'd like to
> >> be treated, etc).
> >>
> >> You can take what I say w/ a grain of salt, since I haven't offered
> >> U-pick.  But I don't think it would bother me if people ate their
> >> lunch from my trees while picking their fruit for purchase.  They are
> >> probably not going to eat more than a couple pounds of fruit, which is
> >> about the average amount I give away anyway.
> >>
> >> If they brought their family in and fed their family from the fruit,
> >> then left without buying anything (or much of anything) that would
> >> upset me.  In that case, they are not treating others like they would
> >> want to be treated.
> >>
> >> Mark Angermayer
> >> Tubby Fruits
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/6/14, Steven Bibula  wrote:
> >>> A few U-Pick customers are so brazen about their theft that they eat
> >>> berries
> >>> and apples freely in front of me while coming out of the field toward
> >>> the
> >>> register.  I also see them positively gorging in the field, as if this
> >>> were
> >>> an AUCE establishment (we charge by the picked pound).  I am also
> >>> troubled
> >>> that the most visible offenders are adults with children, teaching
> those
> >>> children that theft is okay.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What do you do to deter theft and improve moral conduct?  As a part of
> >>> our
> >>> effort to awaken the conscience of our customers without offending or
> >>> implicating those who are already self controlled, we are considering
> >>> posting the following text on a tasteful sign at appropriate an
> location
> >>> or
> >>> two.
> >>>

Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Steven,
This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to weaken
when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent but is
labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of the
sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting sucker
> reduction?
>
>
>
> On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I have
> seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
> locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
> central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
> also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.
>
>
>
> Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or just
> suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks simply
> sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
> sucker buds scattered all over?
>
>
>
> For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit to
> manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
> reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?
>
>
>
> I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and B.9/MM.111,
> and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth the one-time
> effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest suckers to
> control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any permanent sucker
> reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering rootstocks.
>
>
>
> I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate ignorant
> folk such as I.
>
>
>
> Grateful in advance,
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
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Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

David,
My Chaparral label does mention apple. I don't have access to the label at
the moment, but I will in a few days. This herbicide is also very effective
in weed control in your strips. I now spray once with Chaparral and maybe
once with roundup rather than 4-6 times with roundup. (per season) I'm sure
if you contact Dow they will fill you in. I'll get a chance to read my label
and get back to you in a few days. Also, consider Paraquat. This is a very
effective material for sucker burn down. I think Paraquat is also labeled
for apple.
Hugh

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David A. Rosenberger 
wrote:

>  Hello, Hugh —
>
>  I was interested in your comment about controlling apple root suckers
> with Chaparral herbicide because root suckers have become a major headache
> in some of our older research plots.  However, when I checked the Chaparral
> label on the CDMS website, I can’t find any label that includes apples. Do
> you have a special state label for apples, or were you thinking of a
> different herbicide?
>
>  The Chaparral labels that I found indicate that it is not registered at
> all in NY (no big surprise), but I’m still curious about products that
> might be used for chemical control of root suckers in other states.
> However, given all of the warnings on the Chaparral label about long-term
> residual effects, even in hay from treated fields, I’m wondering about
> long-term side effects on apples even if it were labeled.
>
>  On Jan 1, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>
>  Steven,
> This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to weaken
> when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent but is
> labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of the
> sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
> spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.
>
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula 
> wrote:
>
>>  Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting sucker
>> reduction?
>>
>>
>>
>> On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I have
>> seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
>> locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
>> central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
>> also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or just
>> suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks simply
>> sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
>> sucker buds scattered all over?
>>
>>
>>
>> For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit to
>> manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
>> reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and B.9/MM.111,
>> and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth the one-time
>> effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest suckers to
>> control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any permanent sucker
>> reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering rootstocks.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate ignorant
>> folk such as I.
>>
>>
>>
>> Grateful in advance,
>>
>>
>>
>> Steven Bibula
>>
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>>
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Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Hi everyone,
By mistake I made the comment that  Chaparral was effective against apple
suckers, I should have said, "Chateau" is effective. Sorry about the
mix-up...

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:

> David,
> My Chaparral label does mention apple. I don't have access to the label
> at the moment, but I will in a few days. This herbicide is also very
> effective in weed control in your strips. I now spray once with Chaparral
> and maybe once with roundup rather than 4-6 times with roundup. (per
> season) I'm sure if you contact Dow they will fill you in. I'll get a
> chance to read my label and get back to you in a few days. Also, consider
> Paraquat. This is a very effective material for sucker burn down. I think
> Paraquat is also labeled for apple.
> Hugh
>
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David A. Rosenberger 
> wrote:
>
>>  Hello, Hugh —
>>
>>  I was interested in your comment about controlling apple root suckers
>> with Chaparral herbicide because root suckers have become a major headache
>> in some of our older research plots.  However, when I checked the Chaparral
>> label on the CDMS website, I can’t find any label that includes apples. Do
>> you have a special state label for apples, or were you thinking of a
>> different herbicide?
>>
>>  The Chaparral labels that I found indicate that it is not registered at
>> all in NY (no big surprise), but I’m still curious about products that
>> might be used for chemical control of root suckers in other states.
>> However, given all of the warnings on the Chaparral label about long-term
>> residual effects, even in hay from treated fields, I’m wondering about
>> long-term side effects on apples even if it were labeled.
>>
>>  On Jan 1, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>>
>>  Steven,
>> This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to
>> weaken when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent
>> but is labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of
>> the sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
>> spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting sucker
>>> reduction?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I
>>> have seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
>>> locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
>>> central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
>>> also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or just
>>> suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks simply
>>> sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
>>> sucker buds scattered all over?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit
>>> to manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
>>> reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and B.9/MM.111,
>>> and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth the one-time
>>> effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest suckers to
>>> control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any permanent sucker
>>> reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering rootstocks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate ignorant
>>> folk such as I.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Grateful in advance,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steven Bibula
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Jon,
I did mean Chateau. my experience last year was that suckers sprayed with
the material looked sick in a few days. In 2-3 weeks they were easily
pulled, usually with the "node" and some roots coming up as well. I've
found that pulling a 5-6mm healthy sucker (1/4 inch) may take 50 pounds or
more pull to get it out of the ground. After Chateau, the pull was reduced
greatly, to maybe 5-10 pounds, and I could grab 2-3 at the time.  Again,
this is anecdotal info and no science was employed what-so-ever.

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Jon Clements  wrote:

> Hugh, I figured you mean't Chateau. Chateau can only be applied pre-bud
> break (silver tip for apple) or by extension, presumably in the fall after
> harvest. Dave, Venue (Nichino) has a supplemental label specific for sucker
> "management" in pome and stone fruit. It works best when tank-mixed with
> another contact herbicide such as paraquat (Gramoxone) or
> glufosinate-ammonium (Rely). (Or glyphosate, but I know how much you love
> that stuff!) As always, avoid direct contact to the tree trunk,
> particularly young trees, with any contact herbicide to avoid long-term
> injury to the tree.
>
> Jon
>
> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Hugh Thomas 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> By mistake I made the comment that  Chaparral was effective against
>> apple suckers, I should have said, "Chateau" is effective. Sorry about the
>> mix-up...
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Hugh Thomas 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>> My Chaparral label does mention apple. I don't have access to the label
>>> at the moment, but I will in a few days. This herbicide is also very
>>> effective in weed control in your strips. I now spray once with Chaparral
>>> and maybe once with roundup rather than 4-6 times with roundup. (per
>>> season) I'm sure if you contact Dow they will fill you in. I'll get a
>>> chance to read my label and get back to you in a few days. Also,
>>> consider Paraquat. This is a very effective material for sucker burn down.
>>> I think Paraquat is also labeled for apple.
>>> Hugh
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David A. Rosenberger >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hello, Hugh —
>>>>
>>>>  I was interested in your comment about controlling apple root suckers
>>>> with Chaparral herbicide because root suckers have become a major headache
>>>> in some of our older research plots.  However, when I checked the Chaparral
>>>> label on the CDMS website, I can’t find any label that includes apples. Do
>>>> you have a special state label for apples, or were you thinking of a
>>>> different herbicide?
>>>>
>>>>  The Chaparral labels that I found indicate that it is not registered
>>>> at all in NY (no big surprise), but I’m still curious about products that
>>>> might be used for chemical control of root suckers in other states.
>>>> However, given all of the warnings on the Chaparral label about long-term
>>>> residual effects, even in hay from treated fields, I’m wondering about
>>>> long-term side effects on apples even if it were labeled.
>>>>
>>>>  On Jan 1, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Hugh Thomas 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Steven,
>>>> This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to
>>>> weaken when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent
>>>> but is labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of
>>>> the sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
>>>> spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting
>>>>> sucker reduction?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I
>>>>> have seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
>>>>> locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
>>>>> central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
>>>>> also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or
>>

Re: [apple-crop] How to excise malus seeds

[Hugh Thomas]

Try a rock tumbler. This is a small rotary drum that is rubber lined. You
can add the seed plus a grit, say silicon carbide or sand. Basically, the
thing turns and the seeds will wear away in time. Might only take a few
minutes or may take a day or two. I'm thinking the 120/220 grit would work
well. http://geology.com/rock-tumbler/rock-tumblers.shtml

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Ian Alexander Merwin 
wrote:

>  Lee-
> We used to germinate thousands of apple seeds each year to use in our
> replant disease soil bioassays.  Our protocol was to collect the seeds from
> apples that had been in cold storage for a month or so; rinse them in a 10%
> clorox solution; then dust them with captan or a similar fungicide; then
> line them out in trays of moist peat moss or vermiculite.  We could
> germinate several hundred seeds per 12 by 24 inch tray, planting them about
> 1 inch deep in parallel seed lines about 2 inches apart.  After several
> months in a 40 degree F refrigerator the healthy seeds would germinate and
> sprout.  We would transplant them into 4 inch pots with soft tweezers, when
> they had 2 to 4 true leaves (not counting the cotyledons). You could also
> group the resultant seedlings by their probable chill unit requirements,
> assuming that those germinating first had lower chill requirements.  Hope
> this is helpful!
>
>  By the way Lee, those cider apple trees that I got from you on Bud.9
> rootstocks about 20 years ago are all still growing and producing well in
> my home orchard!  Several of them (Kingston Black, Stoke’s Red, Magog
> Redstreak, White Jersey, etc.) have provided a lot of useful budwood for
> local nurseries to propagate those varieties, which has been a great help
> to craft cider-makers.  Thanks!
> Cheers
> Ian
>  
> Ian & Jackie Merwin
> Black Diamond Farm, LLC
> 4675 East Seneca Road
> Trumansburg, NY, USA, 14886
> E-mail:  i...@cornell.edu
> Website:  www.incredapple.com
>
>
>
>
>  On Jan 05, 2015, at 11:27 AM, lee elliott  wrote:
>
> Anyone know an easy way to excise malus seeds, in my efforts to breed next
> generations of my  Honey Crisp crosses I always have about half of my
> collected seeds are excised (split) and embryo are easy to remove.
> (germination rate of embryos removed from seed coat are much higher, close
> to 90% while unexcised seeds is  about 15%) The best way so far is to soak
> the seed(after statification) and drag the seed gently accross a piece of
> sandpaper, rubbing the side of the seed where the hilum is located, then
> prying it apart with fingernails. this a very slow tedious procedure and
> may even contaminate the embryo. With hundreds of seed to excise and poor
> eyesight this is a most daunting task. I have googled this but nothing
> comes up, any ideas?   Lee Elliott, Cider Hill Nursery, Winchester, Illinois
>
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Re: [apple-crop] How to excise malus seeds

[Hugh Thomas]

P.S. Forgot to mention that you and then separate the seeds from the grit
with a kitchen strainer.

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:

> Try a rock tumbler. This is a small rotary drum that is rubber lined. You
> can add the seed plus a grit, say silicon carbide or sand. Basically, the
> thing turns and the seeds will wear away in time. Might only take a few
> minutes or may take a day or two. I'm thinking the 120/220 grit would work
> well. http://geology.com/rock-tumbler/rock-tumblers.shtml
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Ian Alexander Merwin 
> wrote:
>
>>  Lee-
>> We used to germinate thousands of apple seeds each year to use in our
>> replant disease soil bioassays.  Our protocol was to collect the seeds from
>> apples that had been in cold storage for a month or so; rinse them in a 10%
>> clorox solution; then dust them with captan or a similar fungicide; then
>> line them out in trays of moist peat moss or vermiculite.  We could
>> germinate several hundred seeds per 12 by 24 inch tray, planting them about
>> 1 inch deep in parallel seed lines about 2 inches apart.  After several
>> months in a 40 degree F refrigerator the healthy seeds would germinate and
>> sprout.  We would transplant them into 4 inch pots with soft tweezers, when
>> they had 2 to 4 true leaves (not counting the cotyledons). You could also
>> group the resultant seedlings by their probable chill unit requirements,
>> assuming that those germinating first had lower chill requirements.  Hope
>> this is helpful!
>>
>>  By the way Lee, those cider apple trees that I got from you on Bud.9
>> rootstocks about 20 years ago are all still growing and producing well in
>> my home orchard!  Several of them (Kingston Black, Stoke’s Red, Magog
>> Redstreak, White Jersey, etc.) have provided a lot of useful budwood for
>> local nurseries to propagate those varieties, which has been a great help
>> to craft cider-makers.  Thanks!
>> Cheers
>> Ian
>>  
>> Ian & Jackie Merwin
>> Black Diamond Farm, LLC
>> 4675 East Seneca Road
>> Trumansburg, NY, USA, 14886
>> E-mail:  i...@cornell.edu
>> Website:  www.incredapple.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Jan 05, 2015, at 11:27 AM, lee elliott  wrote:
>>
>> Anyone know an easy way to excise malus seeds, in my efforts to breed
>> next generations of my  Honey Crisp crosses I always have about half of my
>> collected seeds are excised (split) and embryo are easy to remove.
>> (germination rate of embryos removed from seed coat are much higher, close
>> to 90% while unexcised seeds is  about 15%) The best way so far is to soak
>> the seed(after statification) and drag the seed gently accross a piece of
>> sandpaper, rubbing the side of the seed where the hilum is located, then
>> prying it apart with fingernails. this a very slow tedious procedure and
>> may even contaminate the embryo. With hundreds of seed to excise and poor
>> eyesight this is a most daunting task. I have googled this but nothing
>> comes up, any ideas?   Lee Elliott, Cider Hill Nursery, Winchester, Illinois
>>
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Re: [apple-crop] lightning

[Hugh Thomas]

My sister in Ohio recently told me that a local orchard near her "tried
using wires like yours" ( I have a tresses system here in Montana) and had
lighting kill a lot of their trees. Must be something to it...

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

> Anyone know of lightning strikes on wire trellised systems, and the
> effects on the trees?
>
>
>
> Has anyone studied the attractiveness of these systems to lightning
> strikes, and whether grounding and foliage has much to do with it?
>
>
>
> Steven Bibula
>
> Plowshares Community Farm
>
> Gorham ME
>
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples

[Hugh Thomas]

Claude, good observation on the oxidation. There is an apple called "Snow
Sweet" that is supposed to resist browning as well.  Thanks for the link to
your book, I just ordered a copy on Amazon. I look forward to reading it.
Here's my book, with little to say about apples, but what the heck...
http://www.amazon.com/Biology-Human-Freedom-Understanding-Self-Ownership/dp/0692205667/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402085345&sr=8-1&keywords=the+biology+of+human+freedom

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:13 PM, Ginda Fisher  wrote:

>
> On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:57 PM, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
>
>  Le 18:50 2015.02.26, vous avez écrit:
>
> I am not particularly excited about the advantages of Arctic Apples,
> although it will be interesting to see if they eventually play a role in
> expanding the shelf life of sliced apples.
>
>
>
> There was a discussion on those apples on another forum recently, and one
> person had a very interesting argument, which I think makes a lot of sense.
>
> It would be that these apples are not intended to be sold direct to
> consumers... In effect, an apple eater wouldn't care less if the apple he
> eats will stay white or not. And the apple eater will always prefer a
> non-GMO apple given choice and knowledge (unless the GMO apple is less
> expensive obviously...).
>
> However, restaurants, cafeterias and other McDonald of this world is a
> totally different story. For these people it makes a lot of sense to have
> non-browning apples, as they can prepare plates of sliced apples in the
> morning, that will still look good in the afternoon. And as we all know, no
> one at McDo will ever ask if what they eat is GMO or irradiated or anything
> else... Hence, these GMO apples would actually be engineered for this
> market.
>
> And by the way, as I touched the subject... Those that are old enough
> might remember there was quire similar arguments many years ago about
> irradiated fruits and vegetables. No one talks about this any more! Any of
> you out there knows if irradiation is still done, and to what extent??? Are
> there irradiated apples out there on the grocery store shelves?
>
> Finally, as a cider maker, I am a bit puzzled by these Arctic apples... I
> assume that if used for cider (I mean hard cider here, but this could also
> apply to fresh apple juice), they would produce a fully uncolored cider,
> like true Champagne. While traditional cider may be quite deep in color,
> mostly if the pomace is left to macerate between milling and pressing. It
> will be interesting to see if some cider makers will use them to make
> colorless cider!
>
>  Claude Jolicoeur
>
> Author,
> *The New Cider Maker's Handbook * http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/
>  http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/the_new_cider_makers_handbook/
>
> According to wikipedia,
> "In total, 103 000 tonnes of food products were irradiated on mainland
> United States in 2010. The three types of foods irradiated the most were
> spices (77.7%), fruits and vegetables (14.6%) and meat and poultry (7.77%).
> 17 953 tonnes of irradiated fruits and vegetables were exported to the
> mainland United States.[69] Mexico, the United States' state of Hawaii,
> Thailand, Vietnam and India export irradiated produce to the mainland U.S.
> [69][70][71] Mexico, followed by the United States' state of Hawaii, is
> the largest exporter of irradiated produce to the mainland U.S.[69]"
>
> I think most spices are now irradiated, and not a lot of other stuff.
>
> I'm sure you are right that the primary market for arctic apples is fast
> food, etc. But as a consumer, I'd think they would be attractive to anyone
> bringing apple slices or fruit salad to a pot-luck, or to a parent packing
> apple slices in the morning for a child's lunch. I but different apples
> depending on whether I plan to eat them fresh or make pie or apple sauce.
> Cortland apples already have a reputation of being slower to brown, and are
> commonly purchased for fruit salad for that reason. I expect to see the
> arctic apples marketed to end consumers, as well as to food vendors.
>
> Ginda
>
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] non-GMO non-browning apples

[Hugh Thomas]

Also this one... http://www.apples.umn.edu/SnowSweet/index.htm

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Fleming, William  wrote:

> Braeburn and Cortland are also non-browning.
>
> Bill Fleming
> Montana State University
> Western Ag Research Center
> 580 Quast Lane
> Corvallis, MT 59828
>
> -Original Message-
> From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David Doud
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:42 AM
> To: Apple-Crop
> Subject: [apple-crop] non-GMO non-browning apples
>
> If anyone has a need for an apple that doesn't brown, I'd be happy to send
> a stick or three of 'Sweet Emma', a chance seedling from grandfathers farm
> - white flesh that doesn't ever even hint of turning brown even while it
> dries to a crisp - a little flattened, red, 2.75", ripe early Oct, mild
> sweet crisp like a RD would dream of being -  vigorous tree, early
> blooming, very scab susceptible, doesn't fill bins like Melrose or Mutsu,
> loses quality in six weeks (would probably respond well to 'Smart-Fresh') -
> I sell quite a few between Oct 5 and Thanksgiving -
>
> No charge - no obligation -
> David Doud
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

[Hugh Thomas]

Understanding GMO is like understanding weather, there is a lot of
superstition involved.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Ginda Fisher  wrote:

>  If it makes you feel any better, that number is likely significantly
> overstated. I have two Facebook accounts. Dead people and pets have
> Facebook accounts. Many people created a Facebook account but never use it.
>
> Also, Facebook is a big place, and nobody reads all of it. Saying "there
> is misinformation on Facebook" is sort of like saying "there is
> misinformation in newspapers."
>
> Ginda Fisher
> Apple consumer
> --
> Typed with Swype. Who knows what I meant to say?
>
>
> On March 30, 2015 5:52:00 PM EDT, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:
>>
>> I jsut read the last data from Facebook that indicates they have over 1.3
>> billion users!  When I see the erroneous information that gets posted to
>> the news feed on Facebook about GMO's, Monsanto and the Arctic apple, and
>> the number of people that believe this stuff.it scares me to think what
>> the future of growers and farmers is going to become!!
>>
>> Dennis Norton
>> IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman/IT Specialist
>> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
>> 15908 Hebron Rd.
>> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
>> Office (815) 648-4467
>> Mobile (815) 228-2174
>> Fax (609) 228-2174
>> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
>> http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com
>> https://www.facebook.com/royaloakfarmorchard/
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Craig Tanner 
>> *To:* 'Apple-crop discussion list' 
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 3:25 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -
>>
>> "*GMO apples may contaminate nearby organic and conventional apple
>> orchards* and could potentially cause valuable export markets to reject
>> U.S. apples as happened in past when wheat and rice crops were found to be
>> contaminated by GMOs." A - See more at:
>> http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples#sthash.FRll2V3z.dpuf
>>
>> what?  how?  this statement makes my head spin
>>
>> Craig Tanner
>> Tanners Orchard, Ltd.
>> Speer, IL
>> 309-493-5442
>> 309-493-5741 fax
>> 306-360-5610 cell
>>
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *David Doud
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 11:28 AM
>> *To:* Apple-Crop
>> *Subject:* [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -
>>
>>  Sorry to beat this, but I think it's in our interest to stay informed -
>> if the powers that be want me to give it a rest, I will -
>>
>> I copy and paste an email that went out to subscribers to Well.org - it
>> was forwarded to me - I am unfamiliar with this organization and a peek at
>> their website doesn't impress and the website itself doesn't have any
>> content about Arctic Apples -
>>
>> I've been made aware of at least one other organization promoting
>> anti-Arctic Apple sentiment -
>> http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples
>>
>>
>> I investigated the claim that "McDonald's and Gerber..." and it's not as
>> presented - they have 'no plans' because there is no product available to
>> buy, but they have not rejected and Gerber specifically admits and defends
>> using GMO products -
>>
>> Looks like battle lines are being drawn and strategies arctic-ulated -
>>
>> David Doud
>> peach leaf curl spray this week -
>> 2012 on this date was apple full bloom - not at silver tip yet this year,
>> but soon -
>>
>>*You're hearing from us because you subscribed via Well.org
>> . Last
>> year, we released the Origins documentary for free to over 700,000 people
>> across the world. If you want to unsubscribe, *
>>
>>
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Re: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor

[Hugh Thomas]

 I would check with a labor attorney. “Contract labor” has been used by
businesses as a ruse to skirt the requirements for matching Social
Security, report injuries, avoid paying workman’s comp, etc. I went through
this thing in the 1990’s and found that “contract labor” is loophole that
has a small and dangerous loop. Back then, it was a auditing trigger for
the tax people. Things may have changed, but I doubt that teenagers would
be considered contract labor if they are under 18,  need to be trained or
supervised.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:30 AM,  wrote:

> I also suggest that you get clarification from your insurance company.
> They may have a stricter definition.
>
> My interpretation of my insurance policy is:  if the person performing the
> work has their own insurance policy to cover work done for others then they
> qualify as contracted labor.  Anyone without their own insurance is an
> employee for insurance purposes, regardless of how they are paid.
>
>
>
> Ernest Rollins
> Owner
> Rollins Orchards, Garland, Maine, USA
> A Family Farm since 1821
> rollinsorcha...@gmail.com
> www.RollinsOrchards.com
>
>
> Ernest Rollins
> Rollins Orchards
> Garland, Maine
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Mark & Helen Angermayer" 
> Sender: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:01:44
> To: 
> Reply-To: Apple-crop discussion list 
> Subject: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor
>
> I plan to hire some high school kids to help me thin fruit this year.
> They will only be working for about a month it takes to thin the
> fruit.
>
> I'm uncertain if this temporary employment  would fall under employees
> or contract labor.  I've looked at the definitions, but still unclear.
>
> Some of the requirements of contract labor vs. employees are who
> provides tools, and who defines work schedule.  Obviously there are no
> tools required for fruit thinning, other than one's hands.  I intend
> be flexible on when the kids can work, so am not setting work times.
> The kids would be hired individually, not as a "thinning crew".
>
> The dollar cost is the same to me either way (because I plan on paying
> more for contract labor and less for employees) but the paperwork is
> less for contract labor.  I'm a very small commercial grower, so FUTA
> is not a consideration.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Mark Angermayer
> Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
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Re: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor

[Hugh Thomas]

Another indicator is that, if you need to train or supervise them, they
cannot be independent contractors. For example, if you hire a contractor to
replace your roof, that's fine, he knows what to do. If you hire a teen and
teach them how to pick, prune, etc, they are an employee.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Mark & Helen Angermayer <
angermay...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wanted to thank everyone of the comments on this discussion.
> Definitely gave me some guidance.
>
> Mark Angermayer
> Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
> Bucyrus KS
>
>
>
>
> On 4/9/15, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
> >  I would check with a labor attorney. “Contract labor” has been used by
> > businesses as a ruse to skirt the requirements for matching Social
> > Security, report injuries, avoid paying workman’s comp, etc. I went
> through
> > this thing in the 1990’s and found that “contract labor” is loophole that
> > has a small and dangerous loop. Back then, it was a auditing trigger for
> > the tax people. Things may have changed, but I doubt that teenagers would
> > be considered contract labor if they are under 18,  need to be trained or
> > supervised.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:30 AM,  wrote:
> >
> >> I also suggest that you get clarification from your insurance company.
> >> They may have a stricter definition.
> >>
> >> My interpretation of my insurance policy is:  if the person performing
> >> the
> >> work has their own insurance policy to cover work done for others then
> >> they
> >> qualify as contracted labor.  Anyone without their own insurance is an
> >> employee for insurance purposes, regardless of how they are paid.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ernest Rollins
> >> Owner
> >> Rollins Orchards, Garland, Maine, USA
> >> A Family Farm since 1821
> >> rollinsorcha...@gmail.com
> >> www.RollinsOrchards.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Ernest Rollins
> >> Rollins Orchards
> >> Garland, Maine
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: "Mark & Helen Angermayer" 
> >> Sender: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
> >> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:01:44
> >> To: 
> >> Reply-To: Apple-crop discussion list 
> >> Subject: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor
> >>
> >> I plan to hire some high school kids to help me thin fruit this year.
> >> They will only be working for about a month it takes to thin the
> >> fruit.
> >>
> >> I'm uncertain if this temporary employment  would fall under employees
> >> or contract labor.  I've looked at the definitions, but still unclear.
> >>
> >> Some of the requirements of contract labor vs. employees are who
> >> provides tools, and who defines work schedule.  Obviously there are no
> >> tools required for fruit thinning, other than one's hands.  I intend
> >> be flexible on when the kids can work, so am not setting work times.
> >> The kids would be hired individually, not as a "thinning crew".
> >>
> >> The dollar cost is the same to me either way (because I plan on paying
> >> more for contract labor and less for employees) but the paperwork is
> >> less for contract labor.  I'm a very small commercial grower, so FUTA
> >> is not a consideration.
> >>
> >> Any help would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Mark Angermayer
> >> Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
> >> ___
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Re: [apple-crop] apple size

[Hugh Thomas]

I've always wondered about root pruning with a deep running and large disk.
Just a thought...

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Kollas  wrote:

>
>
> Art:
>
> I don’t know whence the observations or measurements have
> come, but I saw a rootstock comparison
> in which G202 was said to produce “smaller fruit size.”   For the
> reason you mention, I hope this is true, and of
> more than just statistical significance.  I suspect that if it
> were a practical difference, we would have heard more
> about it.
>
> David Kollas
> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Arthur Kelly  wrote:
>
> > Any suggestions out there for how to reduce fruit size without getting
> into biennial bearing as in not thinning?  Some varieties (Jonagold) would
> be more marketable if they were 2.75 - 3.0" instead of all more than 3.0".
> >
> > --
> > Art Kelly
> > Kelly Orchards
> > Acton, ME
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[apple-crop] Bill Fleming

[Hugh Thomas]

I don't know how many of you guys know this, but Bill Fleming died last
October here in Corvallis, Montana. Bill was a super person, a good friend
and had a wealth of knowledge about apples, wheat and everything in
between. He was the farm manager at the Montana State University
experimental station in Corvallis. From what I understand, Bill had a blood
disease, had only a few days to live and took his own life.

If I had a question about a hay bailer or the depth to plant winter wheat
or what was causing the funny shaped leaves on my apples I turned to Bill
and got the answer in an instant. His death is a big loss.
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Re: [apple-crop] apple size

[Hugh Thomas]

Another way to reduce N is to grow grass under the trees and mow and bag
the grass and haul the grass clippings away.  Sounds labor intensive but
hot so bad if you use a commercial mower.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Arthur Kelly 
wrote:

> We are trying some hard-cider blends with them Mo.
>
> Art
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 8:53 PM, maurice tougas <
> appleman.maur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "JuicyGold".
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Shoemaker, William H <
>> wshoe...@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> What region did you observe the Morren's Jonagored Supra on B9 Jon? Can
>>> you say something about chilling requirement for that cultivar? I think
>>> Jonagold is an excellent apple for fresh eating. If the New England Apple
>>> Association wants to brand it, I think they are making a good choice.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> *William H. Shoemaker *
>>>
>>> *Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist*
>>>
>>> *University of Illinois*
>>>
>>> wshoe...@illinois.edu
>>> --
>>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
>>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Jon Clements [
>>> jon.cleme...@umass.edu]
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:56 PM
>>> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] apple size
>>>
>>> Root pruning: YES
>>> Withhold nitrogen: YES
>>> Minimize dormant pruning, do some summer pruning (but don't remove
>>> fruit): YES
>>> Use Apogee: YES
>>> Over-crop: YES maybe, but use NAA and/or Ethrel to promote return bloom
>>> development
>>> Use B.9 rootstock (as opposed to M.9): YES
>>> Make sure you have enough variety to pollinate: YES
>>>
>>> I found Morren's Jonagored Supra (Willow Drive) grown on B.9 rootstock
>>> to be a very nice Jonagold strain. Good crops without too many large fruit.
>>> Still have to watch biennial bearing. I would plant that strain in a
>>> heartbeat if I want Jonagold.
>>>
>>> Did you hear New England Apple Association is going to brand Jonagold
>>> apples grown in New England? Not sure, however, what they are calling it?
>>>
>>> Any other ideas out there?
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Hugh Thomas 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've always wondered about root pruning with a deep running and large
>>>> disk. Just a thought...
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Kollas 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Art:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t know whence the observations or measurements
>>>>> have come, but I saw a rootstock comparison
>>>>> in which G202 was said to produce “smaller fruit size.”   For
>>>>> the reason you mention, I hope this is true, and of
>>>>> more than just statistical significance.  I suspect that if it
>>>>> were a practical difference, we would have heard more
>>>>> about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kollas
>>>>> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 9, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Arthur Kelly 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Any suggestions out there for how to reduce fruit size without
>>>>> getting into biennial bearing as in not thinning?  Some varieties
>>>>> (Jonagold) would be more marketable if they were 2.75 - 3.0" instead of 
>>>>> all
>>>>> more than 3.0".
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Art Kelly
>>>>> > Kelly Orchards
>>>>> > Acton, ME
>>>>> > ___
>>>>> > apple-crop mailing list
>>>>> > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>>>> > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__virtualorchard.net_mailman_listinfo_apple-2Dcrop&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=1ejiT2NQyeKzdraKv8xrAbS0Mb4hB-tICIci2skuNv8&m=Hqq9Z6y5B9TNZ_9uOOp_yPhDCrjsh2nAbw-m9OO3M3s&s=V2zkAU1v4QS4CuU-kRUNoAnna22k1wBv9M-ekLVvzyE&e=>
>>>>>
>>>>> _

Re: [apple-crop] Freeze/Frost Damage

[Hugh Thomas]

Hope it works out. How about using a helicopter for the copper sprays?
Three days ago - snow in the Caribbean Islands!
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/04/03/never-before-seen-spring-snowfall-in-the-caribbean-islands-colorado-ski-resort-snowiest-in-50-years-snow-chaos-in-germany/

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Dennis Norton <
dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com> wrote:

> Fortunately, our issue has not been with injury from the cold snap, but
> the fact that we are still unable to get our first copper spray on. We have
> gotten nearly 2" of rain int he past week and the orchard is a mud pit!
> Last Sunday it hit 70 here in northern Illinois/southern Wisconsin with a
> wind of 15 to 20 MPH and way too windy to spray. It dried out some, but not
> enough to get the tractors through.  Then the trees went from silver tip to
> green tip in just a few hours.  But by Sunday night is was down to 25 and
> our average high has been in the high 30's and low in the mid 20's since,
> until last night when it hit 21.  Luckily the trees slowed down enough to
> stay pretty much at green tip.  It is still too wet to get into the orchard
> to spray and we are hoping for an 8 to 6 hour window to spray our copper
> tomorrow when the predicted high is 53 and low is 32.  We need enough time
> to get in to spray and give the copper enough time to dry before the temps
> drop.  By Thursday night, the lows are expected to hit freezing again with
> a low of 22 predicted for Friday night.  it looks like we are stuck in this
> pattern of low night temps as long as the jet stream keeps coming out of
> our northwest.  We have an inch of snow predicted for Friday night, but at
> least we are not in Michigan where they are predicting 3" to 6" of snow
> tonight through tomorrow afternoon.  I'm thinking about you growers in
> Michigan right now!!
>
> Dennis Norton
> IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
> 15908 Hebron Rd.
> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
> Office (815) 648-4467
> Mobile (815) 228-2174
> Fax (609) 
> 228-2174http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.comhttp://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.comhttps://www.facebook.com/royaloakfarmorchard/
>
> On 4/4/2016 5:44 PM, maurice tougas wrote:
>
> We will know better in a few days Christina. Wish I could sleep better!
> Mo
>
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Christina M. Herrick <
> cmherr...@meistermedia.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any losses from the latest cold snap? Dave and Christina
>> from *American Fruit Grower* would like to talk to you about it. Send
>> Dave Eddy (de...@meistermedia.com) or Christina Herrick (
>> cmherr...@meistermedia.com) a note.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Maurice Tougas
> Tougas Family Farm
> Northborough,MA 01532
> 508-450-0844
>
>
> ___
> apple-crop mailing 
> listapple-crop@virtualorchard.nethttp://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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[apple-crop] Research

[Hugh Thomas]

A couple of ideas for you PhD/research types. How about using UV light to
kill frost nucleating bacteria, or UV to kill the fire blight bacteria?  A
light bank could be towed behind a tractor and the trees could be
irradiated by UV light.
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Re: [apple-crop] Research

[Hugh Thomas]

Light radiation falls off at an inverse square, and I'm assuming and
orchard like mine, a fruiting wall that would only be about a meter in
thickness. Because the light would be traveling through the orchard, and
the trees out of leaf, I'm guessing the shadows would be covered. Supposing
the UV required the lamps to be a maximum of four feet from the target,
then anything 8 feet away would only receive 1/4 the exposure. Any humans
40 or more feet away would only receive a minute amount of radiation,
probably less than a summer day at the beach. I'm mainly interested in the
ice nucleating bacteria portion anyway, and these bacteria are in dew, a
clear liquid. 100% control is not necessary or practical. Tractor accidents
on farms and orchards kill thousands. Trucks hauling apples kill. The risks
and rewards from UV would need to be researched.

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 4:36 PM, David A. Rosenberger 
wrote:

> UV light does not penetrate surfaces, so it could only kill what is on the
> surface and only what receives the required UV dosage.   Any bacterial in
> shadows created by limbs, leaves, branches, or flower parts would remain
> untreated, and in the case of fire blight, the rapid multiplication of the
> cells that escape would probably negate the value of the treatment pretty
> quickly.   I’m not an expert on UV, but I don’t see how it could be made
> practical in an orchard.  UV works best on clear liquids (as water or thin
> layers of apple juice going by UV treatment lamps) or on flat surfaces
> where shadowing is not an issue.
>
> Also, from the Wikipedia article about UV-C, which is generally the most
> effective for killing microbes:  "For human beings, skin exposure to
> germicidal wavelengths of UV light can produce rapid sunburn and skin
> cancer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer>. Exposure of the eyes
> to this UV radiation can produce extremely painful inflammation of the
> cornea <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornea> and temporary or permanent 
> vision
> impairment <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_impairment>, up to and
> including blindness <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindness> in some
> cases. UV can damage the retina <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina> of
> the eye."
> 
> Dave Rosenberger, Plant Pathologist,
> Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
> Cell: 845-594-3060
> 
>
> On Apr 19, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Hugh Thomas  wrote:
>
> A couple of ideas for you PhD/research types. How about using UV light to
> kill frost nucleating bacteria, or UV to kill the fire blight bacteria?  A
> light bank could be towed behind a tractor and the trees could be
> irradiated by UV light.
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>
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>
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