Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[harry medlicott]

Hi Mike,

We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with 
a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down 
speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the 
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all 
winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no 
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to 
mind,.


Harry M.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Borgelt" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch





Doesn't have to be electric.

I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
glider pilot's hand.
Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.


Mike

At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:

This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !

http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
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phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

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website: www.borgeltinstruments.com

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[Aus-soaring] address

[gavin wrigley]

Has anyone got an address (email) for David John Goodley. Last seen in the 
Northern Territory (!) with a slightly used Hornet, VH-GMU.

Probably best reply direct to me (gavi...@hotmail.com) if you can.

Thanks. Gavin Wrigley. 
 
  
_
Need a new place to live? Find it on Domain.com.au
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[Ian Mc Phee]

20+ years ago we we would always repeat speed twice to winch driver using
the old boom mics- never an issue and you could always use signals - and the
other good thing I used was a vacuum gauge in field of vision when on winch
and I could launch a glider by numbers - remember it well and really worked
Libelle, Bergfalke or SF26(like K8) all had their numbers (or I used colour
on vacuum gauge)

In those days we would do on average 200flights without an issue or cable
brake and that was the bad old 3.15mm wire days.  Spectra/dynima rope has
transformed winch launching.

Ian McPhee

On 27 May 2010 17:40, harry medlicott  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with
> a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down
> speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the
> technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all
> winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no
> problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to
> mind,.
>
> Harry M.
>
> - Original Message - From: "Mike Borgelt" <
> mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com>
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." <
> aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Doesn't have to be electric.
>>
>> I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
>> glider pilot's hand.
>> Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
>>
>>> This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
>>> Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
>>> They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
>>>
>>> 
>>> http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>
>>
>> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since
>> 1978
>> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
>> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
>> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>>
>> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
>> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10
> 04:26:00
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[Terry Neumann]

Mike Borgelt wrote:



Doesn't have to be electric.

I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the glider 
pilot's hand.

Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.


This system comes pretty close:   
http://www.skylaunchuk.com/launchassistant.php
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[Gary Stevenson]

Hi All,
From a practical point of view re pilot control of a  winch self -launch, I 
would imagine the interesting bit would be foolproof control of - wind in 
and appropriately stopping - the cable after release from the glider! I 
understand that there is equipment available working on 2400 MHz that might 
do the job?


Some of you may remember Bill Lewis (Cirrus GAM), who often worked for a 
living in the far outback regions of this country. Bill sometimes took his 
glider and winch with him, just to keep his hand in. He told me that he 
would flag down "somebody passing by" - apparently there weren't  a lot of 
locals - give them a quick lesson on winch driving, and away he would go! 
Maybe that was sometimes - usually these tales were told late at night, and 
the detail tended to blur, if you know what I mean! I seem to recall that he 
once told me he had done a rough estimate of  launching costs - what a 
masochist! - and it worked out at about $800 per launch! There was the odd 
miss-adventure you will understand! Bill was an exponent of rope launching, 
and he told me he was the only "long line fisherman" ever to work out of 
Central Australia!


{Annie, it occurs to me that there if you can contact Bill and convince him 
to put pen to paper, he will give you enough thrilling stories - not 
necessarily entirely about gliding - to fill a book, let alone an article or 
two in Soaring Australia! If  this is of interest, I suggest you try 
contacting Bill  though David Nugent of the Sunrasia Gliding Club.}


Regards,
Gary
- Original Message - 
From: "harry medlicott" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch



Hi Mike,

We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio 
with
a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling 
down

speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on 
all

winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to
mind,.

Harry M.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Borgelt" 

To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch





Doesn't have to be electric.

I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
glider pilot's hand.
Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.


Mike

At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:

This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !

http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
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1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com

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[Aus-soaring] Updated weather forecast for the weekend 29 -30 May 2010

[Robert Hart]

Hi folks

The updated weather forecast (which has improved slightly over 
yesterday's outlook) is now available at


   http://the-white-knight-speaks.blogspot.com

--
Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
+61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[Alan Wilson]

I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals
used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the
communications loop] still manages the take off process.  And I have seen
winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot
out of that communications loop.

In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio.
The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop.

The same thing applies to aerotowing.  The tug pilot,  the aircraft on
downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the
wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop
and stop a safe coordinated launch.

Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio.
[and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.]


Alan Wilson


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry
medlicott
Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

Hi Mike,

We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with 
a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down 
speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the 
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all

winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no 
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to 
mind,.

Harry M.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Borgelt" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch


>
>
> Doesn't have to be electric.
>
> I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
> glider pilot's hand.
> Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
>
>
> Mike
>
> At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
>>This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
>>Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
>>They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
>>
>>http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
>>___
>>Aus-soaring mailing list
>>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
> 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>
> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
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> To check or change subscription details, visit:
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No virus found in this incoming message.
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04:26:00

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[Dave Donald]

I'm against the use of radio to report speeds. We've had instances of other VHF 
radio users making spurious calls when the glider is being launched and if only 
for this reason then I am opposed to it. And I think the wing down aerotow 
retrieves is a bit of a red herring - two very different things!! Additionally, 
there are many gliders around that don't have boom mikes and I can see the 
scenario where it will become acceptable then to use hand-held mikes because 
'we use the radio to report speeds'. It would be a completely unacceptable risk 
to have one hand fumbling around trying to hang up a mike when the rope broke!





From: harry medlicott 
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 5:40:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

Hi Mike,

We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with 
a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down 
speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the 
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all 
winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no 
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to 
mind,.

Harry M.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Borgelt" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch


>
>
> Doesn't have to be electric.
>
> I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
> glider pilot's hand.
> Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
>
>
> Mike
>
> At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
>>This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
>>Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
>>They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
>>
>>http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
>>___
>>Aus-soaring mailing list
>>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
> 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>
> email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring






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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[Dave Donald]

The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. 
There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is 
something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive 
participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen 
without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a 
launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the 
launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made 
to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it 
s called the release knob/handle.

Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between 
launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings 
waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no 
interference. 

The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the 
communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any 
conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed 
just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!!

I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? Old 
and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it 
will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we 
should use the radio because we can.



From: Alan Wilson 
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals
used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the
communications loop] still manages the take off process.  And I have seen
winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot
out of that communications loop.

In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio.
The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop.

The same thing applies to aerotowing.  The tug pilot,  the aircraft on
downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the
wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop
and stop a safe coordinated launch.

Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio.
[and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.]


Alan Wilson


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry
medlicott
Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

Hi Mike,

We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with 
a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down 
speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the 
technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all

winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no 
problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to 
mind,.

Harry M.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Borgelt" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch


>
>
> Doesn't have to be electric.
>
> I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
> glider pilot's hand.
> Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
>
>
> Mike
>
> At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
>>This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
>>Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
>>They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
>>
>>http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
>>___
>>Aus-soaring mailing list
>>Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
> 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>
> email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/27/10 
04:26:00

Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[harry medlicott]

Hi All,

Please bring up some logical arguments.

The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We 
regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least 
with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the 
launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands 
of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more 
driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event 
of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the 
pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the 
day.

The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years examining 
and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million winch 
launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and incidents.

We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which 
for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could 
improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to 
pilots,

Harry Medlicott.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Dave Donald 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF


  The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. 
There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is 
something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive 
participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen 
without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop a 
launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why the 
launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call is made 
to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the launch - it 
s called the release knob/handle.

  Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between 
launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, wings 
waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that there is no 
interference. 

  The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the 
communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any 
conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed 
just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!!

  I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? 
Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that it 
will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we 
should use the radio because we can.


--
  From: Alan Wilson 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

  Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

  I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals
  used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the
  communications loop] still manages the take off process.  And I have seen
  winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot
  out of that communications loop.

  In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio.
  The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop.

  The same thing applies to aerotowing.  The tug pilot,  the aircraft on
  downwind, and the glider on tow may have all coordinated over VHF, but the
  wing tip runner, and the forward signaler are often out of that comms loop
  and stop a safe coordinated launch.

  Let's let the glider pilot give 'take up slack' and 'all out' on VHF radio.
  [and have the pilot manage the wing tip runner.]


  Alan Wilson


  -Original Message-
  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
  [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of harry
  medlicott
  Sent: Thursday, 27 May 2010 5:41 PM
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

  Hi Mike,

  We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with 
  a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down 
  speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the 
  technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all

  winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no 
  problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to 
  mind,.

  Harry M.

  - Original Message - 
  From: "Mike Borgelt" 
  To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
  
  Sent: Thursday, May 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[Matthew Gage]

I'm interested you mention the BGA.

Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the 
only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown 
out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and 
all in radio range on each other.

The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going 
wrong:

Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with 
motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang 
glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times.
Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in 
climb.
Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an 
automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine 
stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the 
manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was 
an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer.

Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch so 
the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on.


On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote:

> Hi All,
>  
> Please bring up some logical arguments.
>  
> The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We 
> regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least 
> with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the 
> launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen 
> thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor 
> and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything 
> useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a 
> phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots 
> training which saves the day.
>  
> The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years 
> examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 
> million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents 
> and incidents.
>  
> We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which 
> for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could 
> improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to 
> pilots,
>  
> Harry Medlicott.
> - Original Message -
> From: Dave Donald
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
> 
> The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. 
> There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is 
> something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive 
> participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen 
> without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop 
> a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why 
> the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call 
> is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the 
> launch - it s called the release knob/handle.
>  
> Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between 
> launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, 
> wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that 
> there is no interference. 
> The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the 
> communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any 
> conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed 
> just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!!
>  
> I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? 
> Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that 
> it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we 
> should use the radio because we can.
> From: Alan Wilson 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
> 
> I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals
> used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the
> communications loop] still manages the take off process.  And I have seen
> winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot
> out of that communications loop.
> 
> In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio.
> The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop.
> 
> The same thing applies to aerotowing.  The tug pilot,  the aircraft on
> downwind, and the gli

Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[DMcD]

>I'm against the use of radio to report speeds.

Isn't radio just the least unreliable method?

Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more
exciting problems than a dud radio.

D

On 28/05/2010, Dave Donald  wrote:
> I'm against the use of radio to report speeds. We've had instances of other
> VHF radio users making spurious calls when the glider is being launched and
> if only for this reason then I am opposed to it. And I think the wing down
> aerotow retrieves is a bit of a red herring - two very different things!!
> Additionally, there are many gliders around that don't have boom mikes and I
> can see the scenario where it will become acceptable then to use hand-held
> mikes because 'we use the radio to report speeds'. It would be a completely
> unacceptable risk to have one hand fumbling around trying to hang up a mike
> when the rope broke!
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: harry medlicott 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> 
> Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 5:40:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> We have speed conrol from the glider right now. Its called a VHF radio with
> a press  to talk button on the control column and a boom mike. Calling down
> speeds to the winch driver is not that hard. Not perfect but we have the
> technolgy in most gliders. Just try and convince the GFA. They insist on all
> winch launch signals being given from outside the glider even though no
> problem with wing down aerotow retrieves. The word antedulvian springs to
> mind,.
>
> Harry M.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mike Borgelt" 
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch
>
>
>>
>>
>> Doesn't have to be electric.
>>
>> I've long been an advocate of putting the winch throttle in the
>> glider pilot's hand.
>> Sure beats using semaphore with the glider airframe.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> At 10:39 AM 27/05/2010, you wrote:
>>>This would be interesting, but controlling a big electric winch.
>>>Good for weekday fliers who don't have a motor glider.
>>>They would have to be independant operators though. Would'nt they !
>>>
>>>http://www.xcmag.com/2010/05/skynch/
>>>___
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>>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since
>> 1978
>> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
>> fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
>> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>>
>> email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
>> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>
>> ___
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>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
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>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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> 04:26:00
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[DMcD]

 >Many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown out the 2
gliding frequencies

I think any discussion regarding radios should be prefaced by the
disclaimer that VHF radios don't work very well, especially on the
ground.

UHF CB radio is many times more reliable than the VHF in gliders. It's
the only form of communication used by HG and PG pilots and with the
modern 40+ channel CB radios with some feature which allows you to
digitally code your transmissions, it's also very private. I am still
a bit staggered by how few gliders have decent reliable VHF
installations.

UHF CB is not line of sight and can be used on sites where the winch
and glider are on opposite sides of a hill.

Yes there is the obvious problem of gliders not having CB radios!

On 28/05/2010, Matthew Gage  wrote:
> I'm interested you mention the BGA.
>
> Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the
> only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would
> drown out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we
> have and all in radio range on each other.
>
> The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going
> wrong:
>
> Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with
> motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang
> glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times.
> Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in
> climb.
> Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an
> automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine
> stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the
> manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine
> was an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer.
>
> Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch
> so the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on.
>
>
> On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Please bring up some logical arguments.
>>
>> The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We
>> regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At
>> least with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the
>> direction of the launch which may not be perfect but is better than
>> nothing. Have seen thousands of winch launches including well over a
>> thousand as an instructor and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a
>> wing runner do anything useful in the event of anything going wrong.
>> Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the pilot himself using
>> his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the day.
>>
>> The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years
>> examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10
>> million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of
>> accidents and incidents.
>>
>> We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures
>> which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we
>> could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and
>> advice to pilots,
>>
>> Harry Medlicott.
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Dave Donald
>> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
>>
>> The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot
>> does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch
>> process is something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a
>> passive participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does
>> not happen without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing
>> runner can stop a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind
>> him/her which is why the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear
>> above and behind' call is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the
>> ultimate authority in the launch - it s called the release knob/handle.
>>
>> Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between
>> launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights,
>> wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that
>> there is no interference.
>> The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of
>> the communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is
>> any conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to
>> proceed just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the
>> yellow handle!!
>>
>> I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing?
>> Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write
>> that it will make launching 'safer' wh

[Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Texler, Michael]

 
>Isn't radio just the least unreliable method?

Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control
linkages more than the radio.

>Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more
exciting problems than a dud radio.

I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained
on the wire.
If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to
signalling.
The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire
(i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break).
It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe
speed after nosing over.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Dave Donald]

Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering the nose. 
If only ever this lesson was learned, then accidents/incidents would drop 
dramatically.

At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked at the 
simulations http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm

I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would definitely 
feature in our accident stats.

Dave




From: "Texler, Michael" 
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 12:57:55 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals


>Isn't radio just the least unreliable method?

Radios are more likely to fail than controls, I would trust my control
linkages more than the radio.

>Wing waggling at speeds close to the stall is likely to cause more
exciting problems than a dud radio.

I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained
on the wire.
If speed is slow on the launch, you should lower the nose prior to
signalling.
The thing that kills people on wire launching is spinning off the wire
(i.e. not having enough airspeed prior to turning after a cable break).
It takes up to six seconds from when the cable breaks to gaining safe
speed after nosing over.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[Peter Brookman]

At our club we winch launch, on both strips where the winch and launch point 
are not visible to each other due to the topography. We use UHF radio 
communication from the launch point, usually with a radio operator at the 
'piecart' overseeing the launch and taking verbal instructions from the wing 
runner.
I personally carry a small hand held UHF with me in the glider so I can monitor 
the launch communication and sometimes when there is a lack of launch crew give 
the directions to the winch myself.
The 'piecart' also has radio monitoring VHF 126.7 (CTAF).
The winch driver can hear the UHF even with the V8 motor at full revs behind 
them, in case there is a call to stop the launch.
With the new directive (effective 3rd June 2010) from CASA that it is mandatory 
to make  calls on the CTAF when gliders are launching, this will either be done 
by the PIC or the radio operator at the 'piecart' just prior to calling the 
winch to take up slack.
The winch driver first sights the launching glider somewhere between initial 
climb to full climb. Correct speed control is usually fairly consistent with 
the experienced winch drivers. We use glider  signals given by the pilot to 
correct any speed problems. (Tail wag or wing waggle).
At all times it would be considered the PIC decision to take a launch, to 
proceed with the launch or abort and make a safe landing.
It is expected that the wing runner and radio operator will monitor the launch 
procedure though to full climb to a safe height and notify the winch if any 
problems occur. 
By using the UHF for ground and launching operations it will reduce the chatter 
on the CTAF freq., that at times is very busy, and calls are unlikely to be 
broken up with someone coming in over the top. A UHF radio at ground level with 
a small antennae has a limited range to get interference from other users.

Peter Brookman
Bordertown-Keith GC


  - Original Message - 
  From: Matthew Gage 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF


  I'm interested you mention the BGA.


  Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the 
only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown 
out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and 
all in radio range on each other.


  The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going 
wrong:


a.. Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch 
with motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang 
glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times.
b.. Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of 
glider in climb.
c.. Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times 
with an automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the 
engine stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the 
manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was 
an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer.


  Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch 
so the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on.




  On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote:


Hi All,

Please bring up some logical arguments.

The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We 
regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least 
with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the 
launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen thousands 
of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor and many more 
driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything useful in the event 
of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a phone or radio or the 
pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots training which saves the 
day.

The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years 
examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 million 
winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents and 
incidents.

We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures 
which for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we 
could improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice 
to pilots,

Harry Medlicott.
  - Original Message -
  From: Dave Donald
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF


  The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot 
does. There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch proc

Re: [Aus-soaring] Flexible solar array to mount on glider

[Mike Borgelt]

At 02:12 PM 27/05/2010, you wrote:

1.0 KW system
Grant $8000.00 govt paid
RECs $800.00 govt paid

System cost $8920.00

Tile brackets $120.00 my cost
Level 2 electrician connect to grid $360.00 my cost
$2500.00 deposit loss of interest @ 5% average rate 12 months $412.50 my loss

Cost and Loss total $895.50 divided by $0.60 = 1492.5 KW breakeven 
4.08 KW per day 365 day approx breakeven


Winter average currently 3.4 KW

System faces west not optimum eg north facing.

Also did the solar hot water rebates $1600.00 federal and $500.00 state

Installed 63 days ago all refunds received.
___


I don't blame you for installing this as for *you* it makes sense but 
remember SOMEBODY has paid the *real* cost of the installation which 
looks to be around $10,000. Around $1500-2000 gets you your share of 
a coal fired power station and it will produce 1KW for you all the 
time. i.e 24Kw-hr a day.


Wind and solar make sense when you don't have grid access. If you do 
have grid access and the green loonies won't let investment be made 
in sufficient and reliable power stations then you might consider a 
petrol generator for the odd outages.


Solar cells on gliders, yachts and spacecraft along with 
communications repeaters in remote areas are a rational engineering 
solution. However if you look at  the comments on the WUWT article, 
one guy is an engineer who did the life cycle energy costs of the 
solar PV and wind generators and came to the conclusion that solar 
returned just under half of the energy investment and wind slightly 
less than 0.3. So neither is really an energy source as your up front 
and maintenance energy investment is 2 to 3 times what you get out 
over the life of the generator. Lucky we're a rich society to afford 
these sorts of hobbies - or were, until this foolishness came along.


Mike


Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch

[Mike Borgelt]

At 06:35 PM 27/05/2010, you wrote:


This system comes pretty 
close: 
http://www.skylaunchuk.com/launchassistant.php

___


It must be about 25 years ago that I provided an electronic airspeed 
sensor to an Adelaide Uni engineering student who was building one of 
these for his practical project.


How about a current one designs a triply redundant, secure, 
interference free, failure tolerant device that puts the throttle in 
the glider pilot's hand?


Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Mike Borgelt]

At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote:
Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering 
the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then 
accidents/incidents would drop dramatically.


At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked 
at the simulations 
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm


I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would 
definitely feature in our accident stats.


Dave


Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle 
of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick 
in the fore and aft sense.

When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere.

Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself 
a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose 
up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back 
on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of 
the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall 
unless you pull the stick back.


It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled 
AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the 
spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. 
Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or 
close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do 
nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced.


My personal opinion on winching is  that it is a cheap and nasty way 
to get airborne  with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is 
tolerated is because it is cheap.


Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Michael Shirley]

And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than
aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing.
Michael

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Friday, 28 May 2010 2:22 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering 
>the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then 
>accidents/incidents would drop dramatically.
>
>At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked 
>at the simulations 
>http://www.glidin
g.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
>
>I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would 
>definitely feature in our accident stats.
>
>Dave

Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle 
of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick 
in the fore and aft sense.
When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere.

Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself 
a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose 
up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back 
on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of 
the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall 
unless you pull the stick back.

It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled 
AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the 
spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. 
Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or 
close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do 
nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced.

My personal opinion on winching is  that it is a cheap and nasty way 
to get airborne  with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is 
tolerated is because it is cheap.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since
1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[DMcD]

>I certainly hope no-one has let their speed drop that far and remained
>on the wire.

They probably didn't remain on the wire. They probably stall/spinned off it  :-(

The BGA says this:

A glider with a 1g stalling speed of 34kt is likely to stall during
rotation at about 50kt if the rotation rate is 20º per second.

The suggested 5 seconds for rotation to a 35º climb angle implies an
average of around 7º per second and a maximum of perhaps 10º per
second. At this rotation rate the stall speed will be about 44kt.

I assume these numbers are done for a K13. If you do the same things
for many more modern gliders with stall speeds of 38 - 42 knots where
some have a max winch speed of 65 or so knots, they are very close to
stalling on any fast rotated take-off.

This is why the BGA state:

There is no case of an airworthy glider being damaged by excessive
airspeed on a winch launch which is why it is not listed as a hazard.
The placarded maximum winch launch speed may safely be exceeded during
the early part of the launch.

However, that contradicts the placarded speed on the glider, so we are
not allowed to talk about it in Australia.

For once, I agree with Mike B. There's no belly hook on my glider.

D

On 28/05/2010, Mike Borgelt  wrote:
> At 01:29 PM 28/05/2010, you wrote:
>>Thanks Michael, particularly with respect to the speed and lowering
>>the nose. If only ever this lesson was learned, then
>>accidents/incidents would drop dramatically.
>>
>>At Harry's suggestion I cruised the BGA Safe Winch Site and looked
>>at the simulations
>>http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/winch-safety.htm
>>
>>I don't know about the flick roll, but the spin and wing drop would
>>definitely feature in our accident stats.
>>
>>Dave
>
> Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle
> of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick
> in the fore and aft sense.
> When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere.
>
> Next time you are at a safe altitude while local soaring get yourself
> a little extra speed, nose up and when stabilised at 45 degrees nose
> up hold the stick in that position and see what happens. Report back
> on your findings. You won't stall. The glider may go over the top of
> the parabola at lower than the 1g stalling speed but won't stall
> unless you pull the stick back.
>
> It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled
> AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the
> spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful.
> Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or
> close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do
> nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced.
>
> My personal opinion on winching is  that it is a cheap and nasty way
> to get airborne  with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is
> tolerated is because it is cheap.
>
> Mike
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since
> 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>
> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Terry Neumann]

Michael Shirley wrote:

And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than
aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing.
Michael


As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both 
of these statements really require further development and factual 
support before they can be beneficial to the discussion.  It is helpful, 
indeed essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the 
above figures to be worthy of serious consideration.  I'm surprised that 
they've been omitted.


Terry




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Kenneth Jason Caldwell]

On Fri, 2010-05-28 at 14:22 +1000, Mike Borgelt wrote:

> Stalling has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with angle 
> of attack which is controlled by the pilot by where he puts the stick 
> in the fore and aft sense.
> When that sinks in to everyone including instructors we might get somewhere.
> 
Unfortunately we do not usually equip our gliders with a means to
indicate to the pilot the angle of attack.

In free flight at a particular (fore & aft) CG the stalling angle of
attack will correspond to a particular stick position but during a winch
launch the tension in the cable causes a pitch up moment early on and a
pitch down moment later in the launch so the position of the stick at
the stall would vary.
> It takes very little time to go from a non stalling AoA to a stalled 
> AoA as the glider doesn't have a high moment of inertia about the 
> spanwise axis and the elevator control is usually quite powerful. 
> Having the trim jump out of the full forward detent to full aft or 
> close to it while holding back pressure on the stick will probably do 
> nicely to initiate a flick roll, particularly for the inexperienced.
It might be appropriate to re consider the common teaching of forward 
trim for winch launching. I have heard two justifications for this the 
first is that it helps get the nose down in the event of a cable break
and the second that it makes the pilot aware of the load on the wings
during the launch. I don't think either of these reasons is valid. 
Logically the trim should be set at about where we would put it when on
downwind.
> My personal opinion on winching is  that it is a cheap and nasty way 
> to get airborne  with emphasis on the nasty. The only reason it is 
> tolerated is because it is cheap.
> 
>From the BGA statistics winch launching has been much more dangerous
than aero tow but it ought to be possible to improve on the past
performances.

Ken


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

[Michael Shirley]

May I refer you to Soaring Australia, November 2007, for the full article
and correct my error it states the ".the fatal and serious injury rate is
eight times that on aerotow launches."

Michael

 

  _  

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Terry
Neumann
Sent: Friday, 28 May 2010 3:56 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing Signals

 

Michael Shirley wrote: 

And according to BGA winching in the UK is 7 times more dangerous than
aerotow - from memory that's 7 times as many deaths as from aero towing.
Michael


As a innocent bystander, whose club uses winch launching, I think both of
these statements really require further development and factual support
before they can be beneficial to the discussion.  It is helpful, indeed
essential to know the ratio of winch to aerotow launches for the above
figures to be worthy of serious consideration.  I'm surprised that they've
been omitted.

Terry



  

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