Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
Pixel wrote: "Russell \"Elik\" Rademacher" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with this. That is what is mainly lacking. It would be nice if there is the apt-get tool version for RPM to use for the servers. i don't think a thing such as apt-get is needed for security updates. For upgrading to cooker or a new version, this is quite a different problem of course, and apt-get and urpmi are nice for this (both are available) Is apt-get proxy/firewall-friendly to download Mandrake packages ? Does it work the same way as in Debian (apt-get upgrade and so on) ? Will the version in contrib work for Linux Mandrake 7.2 (and 7.1 and more ?) ? Or is it compiled only for cooker users ? Thanks, Charles Npote.
RE: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
I agree with this. That is what is mainly lacking. It would be nice if there is the apt-get tool version for RPM to use for the servers. MandrakeUpdate is nice, but we really need the console based version, instead of the GUI, with list of file watcher so that it knows where to update when it become available. Hope that someone considers this. -- Linux Administrator Consultant Russell "Elik" Rademacher -Original Message- From: Brian J. Murrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 1:54 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate There is one place where Mandrake is REALLY suffering at trying to gain acceptability into the enterprise. A non-gui update tool. Right now, if I have a shop with 50 Linux servers, I am not going to log into each server and run MandrakeUpdate. You know what I AM going to do? I am going to have cron run up2date (RedHat's updater) in batch mode (on RedHat boxes in case that was not obvious). There are huge security reasons to load all of the shit that is needed for MandrakeUpdate too. I don't want X-windows and perl on my secrurity gateways. Way too many holes and tools for the Wiley Cracker thanks. How about a non-perl (and non-python for that matter -- be better than RH) based character based, batchable update tool already? b. -- Brian J. Murrell
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
"Russell \"Elik\" Rademacher" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with this. That is what is mainly lacking. It would be nice if there is the apt-get tool version for RPM to use for the servers. i don't think a thing such as apt-get is needed for security updates. For upgrading to cooker or a new version, this is quite a different problem of course, and apt-get and urpmi are nice for this (both are available)
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
At 06:07 AM 1/21/01, Pixel wrote: "Brian J. Murrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is one place where Mandrake is REALLY suffering at trying to gain acceptability into the enterprise. A non-gui update tool. Right MandrakeUpdate is a 99% gui tool. The effective stuff is so simple that i wonder why you ask for it ;p Just mirror the Mandrake/updates/7.2 (or whatever the version you're using) directory and rpm -Fvh * in cron and that's it! That's a good start. It doesn't fully handle dependencies. I'm thinking of the situation when package A, which used to depend on B, C, and D now also depends on package E. "rpm -FVH *" won't install E, so A won't install. David Relson Osage Software Systems, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ann Arbor, MI 48103 www.osagesoftware.com tel: 734.821.8800
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:07:15PM +0100, Pixel wrote: "Brian J. Murrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MandrakeUpdate is a 99% gui tool. And if you maintain that attitude you will lose. Continue that attitude and you will not make it into the enterprise market where you NEED to be if you are going to make any money in the Linux game. I know this. At the company I work for, I wanted to use Mandrake for our infrastructure and I was overridden because your "business model does not have sustainability" (quote from the business managers). In other words there was no confidence that you would be around in 5 years. I wonder how many other shops make the same decisions? Just one more story: During my last few weeks working in the IT department at a(nother) Linux distro comanpany, I came back to Mandrake for my personal machines (I was a Mandrake user prior to working there and liked it enough to return to it when I did not feel obligated to run the product of the company I was working for), and turned one of the other fellows there on to it too. He really liked it. He left very shortly after I did and is working in an OpenSource software shop currently in their IT department. He convinced them to switch from Debian to Mandrake. He likes Mandrake, but it pisses him off to no end that there is no decent efficient update tool. Enough that he is wondering if he made a mistake installing Mandrake on all of their servers. The effective stuff is so simple that i wonder why you ask for it ;p You lost me. What "effective stuff"? Just mirror the Mandrake/updates/7.2 (or whatever the version you're using) directory and rpm -Fvh * in cron and that's it! Omigawd! You are kidding right? How many packages are in Mandrake 7.2? My "secure" box has only 106 packages -- with likely too much cruft on it already. So what percentage of the distro do I have installed (106 / # packages in 7.2)? Now download the entire updates directory when I actually only need a small percentage of them? Jeez, what makes it even worse is that at least half of them seem to be KDE updates. b. -- Brian J. Murrell
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
At 12:59 PM 1/21/01, Brian J. Murrell wrote: Just mirror the Mandrake/updates/7.2 (or whatever the version you're using) directory and rpm -Fvh * in cron and that's it! Omigawd! You are kidding right? How many packages are in Mandrake 7.2? My "secure" box has only 106 packages -- with likely too much cruft on it already. So what percentage of the distro do I have installed (106 / # packages in 7.2)? Now download the entire updates directory when I actually only need a small percentage of them? Jeez, what makes it even worse is that at least half of them seem to be KDE updates. Brian, Wow! Only 106 packages. My development machine has over 500 packages and, no, I don't know what they all are. One strategy might be to create a script that uses the rpm list that "rpm -qa" generates, trims the package names of version info, then uses rsync to update a selective mirror site. At the very least, that would produce something close to the proper set of packages needed and would significantly cut down on disk usage. Given the downloaded packages, the script could then be used to determine additional dependencies and get them or notify you of their need. David David Relson Osage Software Systems, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ann Arbor, MI 48103 www.osagesoftware.com tel: 734.821.8800
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
Hi Brian, Wow! Only 106 packages. Yup. And like I said, that was with really no effort (in paring down) which means it is likely too much. My development machine has over 500 packages and, no, I don't know what they all are. So I am 20% of what you have installed, so likely 20% of all packages on a 7.2 install CD. I really don't want to download 5x the packages I will actually install. For laughs, at one point I saved the result of "ls -lR" for each of the 7 CD's in my 7.2 distribution. Install CD #1 has 929 packages and #2 has 734 packages. So my development machine has only 1/3 of the available packages. My firewall machine has 211 packages, which includes perl, python, gcc, apache, etc, etc. Undoubtedly both machines could be trimmed down ... Given your 106 packages vs. the 1763 of the distribution you're at the 15-16% installed level. One strategy might be to create a script that uses the rpm list that "rpm -qa" generates, trims the package names of version info, then uses rsync to update a selective mirror site. At the very least, that would produce something close to the proper set of packages needed and would significantly cut down on disk usage. Given the downloaded packages, the script could then be used to determine additional dependencies and get them or notify you of their need. Yeah, I before MandrakeUpdate I had written one of those, and I could dig it up and resurrect it but I really think this is something that Mandrake NEEDS in the distro. That is why I suggested it. Obviously you're ahead of me on the project! That's the way it should be. Another tool comes to mind - RPMFIND which has the ability to find package updates and resolve dependencies. It might be a solution for you. David David Relson Osage Software Systems, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ann Arbor, MI 48103 www.osagesoftware.com tel: 734.821.8800
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 03:11:26PM -0500, David Relson wrote: Hi Brian, Hi David, My firewall machine has 211 packages, which includes perl, python, gcc, apache, etc, etc. Yikes! gcc and perl on a firewall? Undoubtedly both machines could be trimmed down ... Undoubtedly. :-) Given your 106 packages vs. the 1763 of the distribution you're at the 15-16% installed level. Try your math again: 106/1763 = 6%. Obviously you're ahead of me on the project! That's the way it should be. Another tool comes to mind - RPMFIND which has the ability to find package updates and resolve dependencies. It might be a solution for you. Yeah, but again, this is something that NEEDS to be in the distro, not just on my systems. Everytime I need to write something that I get with another distro, I need to re-evaluate my reasons for using it. b. -- Brian J. Murrell
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
At 04:40 PM 1/21/01, you wrote: My firewall machine has 211 packages, which includes perl, python, gcc, apache, etc, etc. Yikes! gcc and perl on a firewall? Useful for building a new kernel and serving active web-page content and other excuses :-) Undoubtedly both machines could be trimmed down ... Undoubtedly. :-) Given your 106 packages vs. the 1763 of the distribution you're at the 15-16% installed level. Try your math again: 106/1763 = 6%. Invert my number. Must have been asleep at the keyboard. My calculation actually was that the distribution had 15-16 times as many packages as you have installed. Totally incorrect to report it as a percent. Obviously you're ahead of me on the project! That's the way it should be. Another tool comes to mind - RPMFIND which has the ability to find package updates and resolve dependencies. It might be a solution for you. Yeah, but again, this is something that NEEDS to be in the distro, not just on my systems. Everytime I need to write something that I get with another distro, I need to re-evaluate my reasons for using it. Agreed - it would be much better if Mandrake provided it. David David Relson Osage Software Systems, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ann Arbor, MI 48103 www.osagesoftware.com tel: 734.821.8800
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
There are huge security reasons to load all of the shit that is needed for MandrakeUpdate too. I don't want X-windows and perl on my secrurity gateways. Way too many holes and tools for the Wiley Cracker thanks. How about a non-perl (and non-python for that matter -- be better than RH) based character based, batchable update tool already? b. -- Brian J. Murrell you could just mirror all the sites to one base site... Incidently, perl is secure if it's written well. =) From a security standpoint there really is no 100% secure way to have a remote site update other computers. Even non-gui programs tend to make insecure temp files that can be used maliciously. Best bet is to take whatever systems you want to upgrade off of their connection to the internet and keep them solely on a LAN. ::shrug:: But hey that's just my oppinion, each of us has our own way of doing things. Ron's all_sync.pl works fine for me and is about as secure as things can get, but if you would like another non-gui tool, maybe someone on the Mandrake team and look at RH's and get a feel for it and adapt it. just my few cents worth -Tim
Re: [Cooker] REALLY need a nongui MandrakeUpdate
That's a good idea. I think I can create the software for Mandrake update tool, similar to apt-get, written in C++ (not C - I'm tired!). What I can make is a simple console tool to get a file list from a file, eg: /etc/mandrakeupdate.mirror and then fetch the list starting from the beginning of the line in that file, and it will do an automatic RPM update (including dependencies). That way people will have no worry about buffer overflow, etc. Then it will update your RPM automatically so that even when you're sleeping you don't have to worry about any bugs. What do you think? Give me a feedback before I start coding. I'm not Mandrake's developer, but I feel obligated to try coding for Mandrake because I really like Mandrake than any other distros that I've tried, and I feel it's time for me to pay back. So far I've only contributed gnome-telnet to 7.2 I've done a few TCP/IP programming before, so it shouldn't be that hard. If everybody wants it, I'll make the tool. I can make a commitment to code every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. It'll approximately take 2.5 - 3 months to finish (after beta-test, bug fix, etc) because I have a job and my college takes quite a lot of my time. Prana Member of Gnome Foundation http://www.cyest.org "Brian J. Murrell" wrote: On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 11:38:54PM -0500, Tim McKenzie wrote: you could just mirror all the sites to one base site... Huh? I must be misunderstanding. All I want is a tool on a given machine that looks at a list of updates on a server somewhere and updates the given machine to the latest packages. What do I have to be mirroring all the sites to one base site for? -- Prana [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyest.org My GnuPG Key ID: 0x33343FD3 (2000-07-21) Key fingerprint = F1FB 1F76 8866 0F40 A801 D9DA 6BED 6641 3334 3FD3 http://blackhole.pca.dfn.de:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x33343FD3
