Re: Donald Trump

[grarpamp]

Myron Ebell to head EPA (in lieu of science?)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooler_Heads_Coalition
http://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO00/20131016/101409/HHRG-113-GO00-Bio-EbellM-20131016.pdf
http://www.globalwarming.org/2015/08/07/with-clean-power-plan-obama-fulfills-campaign-promise/
http://www.globalwarming.org/2016/09/02/president-obama-and-chinese-president-xi-will-officially-join-the-paris-climate-treaty-on-3rd-september/
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/05/skeptic200705

Re: [i...@fsf.org: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?]

[Stephen D. Williams]

On 11/10/16 7:39 PM, Razer wrote:
>
> On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:
>
>
>> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
>
> I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know? It's 
> about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One
> person inventing the WWW... ROTF!
>
> MAYBE the TERM "WWW".
>
> Rr

There are a number of well-known cases of specific individuals inventing or 
co-inventing specific components of the Internet and
protocols on it.  TBL invented the World Wide Web in a core and well-known 
specific sense.  Most of us have read all about it and a
few of us were experiencing it real-time, switching from FTP, telnet, and 
Archie to Mosaic w/ web pages.  Vint Cerf co-invented
TCP/IP, commonly summarized as "invented the Internet".  I don't know of anyone 
else who is said to have "invented the World Wide
Web".  There were people who earlier suggested some kind of linked shared 
information, like Ted Nelson.

http://webfoundation.org/about/vision/history-of-the-web/

sdw

Re: [i...@fsf.org: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?]

[Razer]

On 11/10/2016 03:14 PM, Mr Harkness quoted some schmuck:


> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.

I've seen this claim about a number of different people and you know?
It's about as ignorant a thing to say as I can imagine. One person
inventing the WWW... ROTF!

MAYBE the TERM "WWW".

Rr


> - Forwarded message from "Zak Rogoff, FSF"  -
> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:09:55 -0500
> From: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" 
> Reply-To: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" 
> Subject: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?
>
>
> Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,
>
> The chief arbiter of Web standards, Tim Berners-Lee, has an important
> choice to make this week. He must decide whether or not to allow media
> and technology companies to add socially harmful [Digital Restrictions
> Management (DRM)][1] into the technical capabilities of the Web, with
> a proposal called [Encrypted Media Extensions][2] (EME). The companies
> are currently asking for Berners-Lee's seal of approval to move EME to
> the next phase of standardization: a Proposed Recommendation of the
> [World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)][3].
>
> [1]: 
> https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management
> [2]: https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media
> [3]: https://www.w3.org
>
> Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. Back
> then timbl -- as he's known online -- declined opportunities to lock
> down his creation and established himself as an advocate for a
> freedom-affirming, interoperable, and universally accessible World
> Wide Web. Now he's considering turning his back on this vision to make
> Netflix, Google, Apple, and Microsoft happy.
>
> **We have just days to convince Tim Berners-Lee to choose freedom for
>   the Web and block Encrypted Media Extensions from becoming an
>   official standard. Repeat the [GNU social][4] and [Twitter][6]¹
>   messages from our anti-DRM campaign, asking Tim a simple question:
>   #WhatWouldTimblDo?  Would the Web's once idealistic inventor really
>   give up on free standards?**
>
> [4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277
> [6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656
>
> Not in to social media? You can also take action by [sending in a
> selfie against DRM in Web standards][7] or [signing our petition][8].
>
> [7]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/selfie-against-drm-in-web-standards
> [8]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183=1
>
> ### Some background
>
> Big media owners, like the movie studios represented by the [MPAA][9]
> and the music labels represented by the [RIAA][10], feel threatened by
> the sharing that digital technology enables. Since the '90s, they've
> poured bottomless resources into locking down not just the Web but
> physical devices as well. One of their favorite tools is DRM --
> digital handcuffs that limit what people can do with media.
>
> [9]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/mpaa
> [10]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/riaa
>
> These companies have never cared that DRM denies users the right to
> control their computers, or that it causes huge collateral damage by
> [opening security holes][11], restricting cultural creativity, and
> [limiting accessibility for the disabled][12]. In fact, they've even
> had laws like the [Digital Millenium Copyright Act][13] passed, to
> give DRM special status that makes it illegal to circumvent. More
> recently, companies that stream media, like Netflix and Google, have
> forged distribution deals with media giants. These lucrative
> relationships are an incentive to join the labels in their quest for
> control.
>
> [11]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ten-years-after-sony-rootkit
> [12]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/disabling-the-disabled
> [13]: 
> https://www.defectivebydesign.org/DMCA-exemptions-process-anti-circumvention
>
> In 2013 Berners-Lee surprised the world by allowing some of the
> companies that use DRM -- namely Netflix, Apple, Google, and Microsoft
> -- to start developing their latest project within the walls of the
> World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the official Web standards
> organization led by Berners-Lee. Their project, EME, is a universal
> DRM system for the Web. The choice Berners-Lee faces now is whether or
> not to allow EME to reach the "maturity level" of a Proposed W3C
> Recommendation, indicating he feels it is ready to become an official
> standard and passing it to the W3C's Advisory Committee for
> ratification.
>
> This is the first time that Berners-Lee and the W3C have considered
> including DRM in Web standards. Berners-Lee seems to be hoping that
> the big media companies will accept EME and use it to make DRM cheaper
> and easier for streaming video, then leave the free Web alone. But
> history shows us the exact opposite. DRM has to keep spreading to new
> platforms and formats to maintain control over users, and its owners
> have no reason not to use 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Razer]

On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, John Newman wrote:

> I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to
> celebrate Hillary.
> Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of
> line is just a farce. Just like all of American politics.

It depends on whether one sees it as a chance to destroy the American
two faction system of 'government'. I for one would like to know how
many PISSED OFF AMERICANS didn't vote for him because they were in
support of his ideas, but becaue they knew it would FUCK SHIT UP and
MAYBE even turn some prog-libs (still watching the college crowd
carefully here) into wild-eyed firebomb tossing radicals.

One can ONLY hope.

Rr

>
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, jim bell  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *From:* grarpamp >
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp > > wrote:
>>
>> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>>
>> >This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>>
>> >Violence not a good solution.
>>
>> These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be
>> protesting Hillary Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides
>> and allies,and the various examples of corruption that have occurred.
>>  Do they not realize that the election went the way it did not merely
>> because of the email leaks, but more fundamentally because these
>> corrupt people did things the way they did, and then they chose to
>> talk about that in a medium that at one point they considered secure
>> and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
>>
>> In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she
>> was capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too
>> much laughter from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had
>> changed.  Do her supporters actually believe that the only problem is
>> the exposure of her, rather than her underlying behavior?
>>
>
> Does anyone actually believe Trump is anything but a bloviating gasbag
> who told the racist hordes in America what they wanted to hear? Does
> he even believe his own bullshit - does any politician? 
>
> I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to
> celebrate Hillary.
>
> Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of
> line is just a farce. Just like all of American politics.
>
>
> John
>
>> Jim Bell
>>
>>
>>

[i...@fsf.org: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?]

[Mr Harkness]

- Forwarded message from "Zak Rogoff, FSF"  -
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:09:55 -0500
From: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" 
Reply-To: "Zak Rogoff, FSF" 
Subject: He invented the Web. Would he give up on free standards?


Dear Mr Zenaan Harkness,

The chief arbiter of Web standards, Tim Berners-Lee, has an important
choice to make this week. He must decide whether or not to allow media
and technology companies to add socially harmful [Digital Restrictions
Management (DRM)][1] into the technical capabilities of the Web, with
a proposal called [Encrypted Media Extensions][2] (EME). The companies
are currently asking for Berners-Lee's seal of approval to move EME to
the next phase of standardization: a Proposed Recommendation of the
[World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)][3].

[1]: 
https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management
[2]: https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media
[3]: https://www.w3.org

Twenty-five years ago, Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web. Back
then timbl -- as he's known online -- declined opportunities to lock
down his creation and established himself as an advocate for a
freedom-affirming, interoperable, and universally accessible World
Wide Web. Now he's considering turning his back on this vision to make
Netflix, Google, Apple, and Microsoft happy.

**We have just days to convince Tim Berners-Lee to choose freedom for
  the Web and block Encrypted Media Extensions from becoming an
  official standard. Repeat the [GNU social][4] and [Twitter][6]¹
  messages from our anti-DRM campaign, asking Tim a simple question:
  #WhatWouldTimblDo?  Would the Web's once idealistic inventor really
  give up on free standards?**

[4]: https://status.fsf.org/notice/189277
[6]: https://mobile.twitter.com/endDRM/status/796475563204550656

Not in to social media? You can also take action by [sending in a
selfie against DRM in Web standards][7] or [signing our petition][8].

[7]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/selfie-against-drm-in-web-standards
[8]: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=183=1

### Some background

Big media owners, like the movie studios represented by the [MPAA][9]
and the music labels represented by the [RIAA][10], feel threatened by
the sharing that digital technology enables. Since the '90s, they've
poured bottomless resources into locking down not just the Web but
physical devices as well. One of their favorite tools is DRM --
digital handcuffs that limit what people can do with media.

[9]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/mpaa
[10]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/topic/riaa

These companies have never cared that DRM denies users the right to
control their computers, or that it causes huge collateral damage by
[opening security holes][11], restricting cultural creativity, and
[limiting accessibility for the disabled][12]. In fact, they've even
had laws like the [Digital Millenium Copyright Act][13] passed, to
give DRM special status that makes it illegal to circumvent. More
recently, companies that stream media, like Netflix and Google, have
forged distribution deals with media giants. These lucrative
relationships are an incentive to join the labels in their quest for
control.

[11]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/ten-years-after-sony-rootkit
[12]: https://www.defectivebydesign.org/disabling-the-disabled
[13]: 
https://www.defectivebydesign.org/DMCA-exemptions-process-anti-circumvention

In 2013 Berners-Lee surprised the world by allowing some of the
companies that use DRM -- namely Netflix, Apple, Google, and Microsoft
-- to start developing their latest project within the walls of the
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the official Web standards
organization led by Berners-Lee. Their project, EME, is a universal
DRM system for the Web. The choice Berners-Lee faces now is whether or
not to allow EME to reach the "maturity level" of a Proposed W3C
Recommendation, indicating he feels it is ready to become an official
standard and passing it to the W3C's Advisory Committee for
ratification.

This is the first time that Berners-Lee and the W3C have considered
including DRM in Web standards. Berners-Lee seems to be hoping that
the big media companies will accept EME and use it to make DRM cheaper
and easier for streaming video, then leave the free Web alone. But
history shows us the exact opposite. DRM has to keep spreading to new
platforms and formats to maintain control over users, and its owners
have no reason not to use their massive power and money to continue
integrating it into more elements of the Web. Indeed, there are
murmurs about adding DRM to [text][14] and [image][15] standards,
which would be energized by the ratification of EME. EME foreshadows a
future Web that is riddled with DRM, where the freedom and
transparency of the system (like viewing source HTML in a browser)
will be gradually phased out.

[14]: http://idpf.org/epub-content-protection
[15]: 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56:01AM -0500, grarpamp wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:13 PM, jim bell  wrote:
> > "Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in
> > which there is very low resistance to change.
> 
> Speaking of chaos...
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trump+election+protests
> 
> Seems to be a first for any US election.
> Wonder who's behind it

Couldn't be Soros - who would ever believe that?

Besides, nothing quite like "tolerant" leftists protesting violently
...

Re: Trump Postmortem: Why He Won

[Zenaan Harkness]

- Forwarded message from Zenaan Harkness  -
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:48:58 +1100
From: Zenaan Harkness 
Subject: Re: Trump Postmortem: Why He Won

Michael Moore, eat your hear out! In your -face- hypocrite!!!

Enjoy :)
z



Michael Moore's Message to Butthurt Dems Is BS: Trump Is Projected to
Win the Popular Vote. Sorry?
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/michael-moores-message-butthurt-dems-bs-trump-projected-win-popular-vote/ri17517

- End forwarded message -

Re: Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is DEAD!!!

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 07:20:33PM -0500, John Newman wrote:
> 
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:
> > 
> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 06:16:33PM -0300, Juan wrote:
> >> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:30:30 -0500
> >> grarpamp  wrote:
> >> 
>  On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Razer  wrote:
>  So the final numbers for  Election Day are:
>  
>  231,556,622 eligible voters
>  
>  46.9% didn't vote
>  25.6% voted Clinton
>  25.5% voted Trump
>  
>  NOBODY got the most votes!
> >>> 
> >>> I'm ok with that... means there's plenty of room
> >>> for someone representing and executing a different
> >>> arrangement of ideas to get 25.7%.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so
> >>"nobody" should be president
> >> 
> >>Also voting age is of course statist nonsense so the number of
> >>votes for "nobody" is even higher.
> > 
> > I want to marry my rock, and my rock wants to vote, it's an assisted
> > rock, assisted by me, so I assist it to the voting booth, the only
> > slight difficulty might be proving sentience, assuming such state
> > ordered nonsense as "sentience" were set as the minimum bar for voting
> > -though if it can be tested, I can prolly write a computer program for
> > my robot to demonstrate sentience.
> 
> Sentience test??? That's voter disenfranchisement. 
> 
> Anyone dumb enough to think their vote means jack shit is barely sentient 
> anyway =)

Just as well my rock doubles my sentience quotient - AND gives me^B
ahem, ahem, my rock, an extra vote, sorry, its own vote!

Re: Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is DEAD!!!

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 06:16:33PM -0300, Juan wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:30:30 -0500
>> grarpamp  wrote:
>> 
 On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Razer  wrote:
 So the final numbers for  Election Day are:
 
 231,556,622 eligible voters
 
 46.9% didn't vote
 25.6% voted Clinton
 25.5% voted Trump
 
 NOBODY got the most votes!
>>> 
>>> I'm ok with that... means there's plenty of room
>>> for someone representing and executing a different
>>> arrangement of ideas to get 25.7%.
>> 
>> 
>>I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so
>>"nobody" should be president
>> 
>>Also voting age is of course statist nonsense so the number of
>>votes for "nobody" is even higher.
> 
> I want to marry my rock, and my rock wants to vote, it's an assisted
> rock, assisted by me, so I assist it to the voting booth, the only
> slight difficulty might be proving sentience, assuming such state
> ordered nonsense as "sentience" were set as the minimum bar for voting
> -though if it can be tested, I can prolly write a computer program for
> my robot to demonstrate sentience.

Sentience test??? That's voter disenfranchisement. 

Anyone dumb enough to think their vote means jack shit is barely sentient 
anyway =)

> :)

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:46 AM, jim bell  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> From: grarpamp 
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> 
> > Seems to be a first for any US election.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
> 
> >This compilation from before election...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
> 
> >Violence not a good solution.
> 
> These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be protesting 
> Hillary Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides and allies,and the 
> various examples of corruption that have occurred.  Do they not realize that 
> the election went the way it did not merely because of the email leaks, but 
> more fundamentally because these corrupt people did things the way they did, 
> and then they chose to talk about that in a medium that at one point they 
> considered secure and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
> 
> In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she was 
> capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too much laughter 
> from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had changed.  Do her 
> supporters actually believe that the only problem is the exposure of her, 
> rather than her underlying behavior?
> 

Does anyone actually believe Trump is anything but a bloviating gasbag who told 
the racist hordes in America what they wanted to hear? Does he even believe his 
own bullshit - does any politician? 

I see no reason to celebrate Trump, just as I would see no reason to celebrate 
Hillary.

Acting as if her corruption is anything special or particularly out of line is 
just a farce. Just like all of American politics.


John

> Jim Bell
> 
> 
> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: juan 
On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:14:50 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:

>  Bounties for killing the
> operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
> would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
> the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
> surveillance capabilities.

>    Hey, but Jim's system (which Tim May 'invented' before Jim I
 >   believe?) would be protected, by, GET THIS, TOR.
That depends on how much you want to distort reality.  I was unaware of the 
existence of the CP list prior to about May 1995, as I recall.  (Someone I 
don't recall forwarded a copy of AP part 1 to the CP list, and then alerted me 
to the list's existence.)
 Prior to that, I was unaware of anything about Tim May except that he had 
worked for Intel (in Santa Clara, California) in the late 70's and early 80's, 
and he had discovered that alpha particles (charged helium nuclei) were the 
main cause of 'soft errors' in DRAMs of that era.  As I learned, much later, 
May (and others) invented the idea of an "Assassination Market", at least what 
I now call the "Anonymous Person A hires Anonymous Person B to kill Person C" 
version.  Entirely unaware of their specific work (but, as I vaguely recall, 
aware of this general concept; I'd probably heard of it, indirectly, from a 
third person whose identity I don't recall), I thought of the "Hundreds, or 
thousands, or millions of 'Person A's', make anonymous contributions to a 
general offer to potentially any 'Person B' to reward him for 'predicting' the 
date of death of 'Person C'.
Are these two models alike?  Kinda-sorta, I suppose.  But I think they would be 
enormously different in effect, for many reasons I need not go into here.  If 
'Assassination Markets' were limited to the former model, very few people would 
be hated, enough, by only one person to obtain a donation sufficient to buy a 
death.  In the latter model, a few million 25-cent donations would get rid of 
nearly all potential targets.
I suggest that I did indeed advance the rhetorical state-of-the-world.  

>    Only very ignorant people would fail to realize that TOR
>    provides bullet proof anonimity, especially against the
>    pentagon.
I didn't mention TOR to imply that it is, in its current form, entirely 
suitable for use in a functioning AP system.  Rather, my intent was to show 
that the kind of tools necessary to implement AP are being considered and 
produced.  Just "the kind of tools", not necessarily the tools themselves.  TOR 
should be made stronger, with more hops, more exit nodes, and more transfer 
nodes, filler traffic, for some examples of improvements.  Bitcoin needs an 
upgrade, for example to Zerocoin, to provide true anonymity, rather than mere 
pseudonymity.  

> The betting pool itself would alert
No, it would not.  Unlike the Federal Government's short-lived proposal in 
2003, PAM "Policy Analysis Markets", (FutureMAP),  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market   in which the state of 
the betting itself alerts people to threats, a well-designed AP system would 
carefully avoid alerting the public (or anyone) to bets, ideally until later, 
after the event predicted had materialized or failed to materialize.  The 
'money' for the bet might be inside an encryption envelope, without the name of 
the target or date.  Another encryption envelope, inside the first one, could 
contain the target and date information.  The AP organization could decrypt the 
first (outer) envelope, and be unable to decrypt the inner one, at least until 
the password is sent in by the predictor. 
 The AP organization would, however, publish the decrypted contents of the 
outer envelope, so that everyone would know that a prediction with $X of value 
came in on a specific date and time. Nobody, except the predictor, would know 
the identity or date.  Eventually, the inner password would be sent in, used to 
decrypt the inner envelope, with the results published online.  If the AP 
organization cheats, by not failing to perform one of these steps, the 
predictor could publish the inner prediction key himself, disclosing to the 
public that the long-since-published content of the outer encryption envelope 
was a valid prediction, and for some reason (fraud?) the AP organization did 
not play fair.   That would destroy the credibility of that specific AP 
organization; others would soon take its place.

> potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
> best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.
The system would adapt.  Consider Le Chatlier's Principle.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier%27s_principle
A working AP system might, for example, authorize spending (for concreteness) 
10% of donations on defensive contracts:  Consider the effect of a $250,000 
reward on the prosecutor in a case alleging an AP action, or $500,000 for a 
judge.   Or 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 12:26 PM, juan  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:06:33 -0500
> John Newman  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
>>> nonsense:
>>> 
 Violence ended slavery in the South. 
 Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
 
 Sometimes it's the solution. 
 
 John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
>>> solution itself
>> 
>> Yes , truly spoken.
>> 
>> The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful
>> ways" for us to kill ourselves,
> 
> 
>Not meaning to re-start a flame war =P,  but I think you mean
>technology, not science. Yes, technological development is
>(partly) related to what can be called 'basic' science but
> they are distinct. 
> 
> 
>> it becomes increasingly obvious
>> humanity needs to either disavow war altogether (how to do that I
>> have no idea) or face the inevitable conclusion that we are going to
>> fucking destroy ourselves.
> 
>That's a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as too
>consistent with the 'science' of 'biology' - How many examples
>of species that commit collective suicide are there? Why should
>human *animals* be different? Even inter species competition
>doesn't lead to complete destruction usually.
> 
>On the other hand, given the trends in 'networking' and
>totalitarianism, it wouldn't be too surprising if the human
>race became some sort of collective entity in which our ruling
>monsters (say google and clinton) would act as a 'brain'. 
> 
> 


Bostrum (the simulation hypothesis guy) has some interesting thoughts on the 
future of humanity that basically boil down to a few possibilities, one of 
which is humanity locking itself (forever) into some sort of totalitarian 
dystopia similar to what you outline. 

Fundamentally I think this is the same thing as destroying ourselves outright.



> 
>> Fermi paradox solved =)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> John
> 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:14:50 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:

>  Bounties for killing the
> operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
> would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
> the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
> surveillance capabilities.

Hey, but Jim's system (which Tim May 'invented' before Jim I
believe?) would be protected, by, GET THIS, TOR.

Only very ignorant people would fail to realize that TOR
provides bullet proof anonimity, especially against the
pentagon.



> The betting pool itself would alert
> potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
> best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.
> 
> But other than that...
> 
> :o)
> 
> 
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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 11/10/2016 01:17 PM, jim bell wrote:

> Governments killed an estimated 240 million people in the 20th
> century. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide , although this
> article does not cite the figure 240 million; I recall the figure
> from elsewhere.)
> 
> If you consider that to have been an unacceptable number, then I
> think you need to try to explain away any system that claims that
> it has the "horsepower" to stop such slaughter.If anything, the
> only criticisms I have heard of AP is that it would be TOO
> effective, not that it would not be powerful enough to get rid of
> the governments that kill.  (And, ultimately, ALL governments.)

As with most elegant solutions to real world problems, the sticking
point with AP is implementation.  It requires anonymous payment
protocols that are themselves "bullet proof", and would have to
weather counter-attacks by a ruling class whose financial resources
and ability to affect major infrastructure changes are astronomically
higher than common sense would suggest.  Bounties for killing the
operators of an AP system, offered through more old fashioned means,
would be extraordinarily high - requiring bullet proof anonymity in
the presence of uber-motivated adversaries with global network
surveillance capabilities.  The betting pool itself would alert
potential targets to take proportional defensive measures, which "at
best" would inhibit the social progress promoted by the system.

But other than that...

:o)


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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: John Newman 
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:

>> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical nonsense:
> 
>>> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
>>> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>> 
>>> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>>> John
> 
>> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
>> solution itself

>Yes , truly spoken.

>The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful ways" 
>for us to kill ourselves, it becomes increasingly obvious humanity needs to 
>either disavow war altogether (how to do that I have no idea) 
I DO claim that I have the solution to war.At the risk of tooting my own horn, 
I described (in general terms) the solution to that problem 21 years ago.   
https://cryptome.org/ap.htm    Now, I didn't and don't expect people to 
automatically accept what I wrote, without challenge.  But I think there is a 
certain responsibility of people who continue to argue that there is no general 
solution to the problem of war, to explain why my AP idea can't or won't work. 
See AP, Part 9, where I review a correspondence between Albert Einstein and 
Sigmund Freud, on the subject of war.  
Since 1996, tools like TOR and Bitcoin have been developed, and Ethereum and 
Augur are well on their way. Governments killed an estimated 240 million people 
in the 20th century.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide , although this 
article does not cite the figure 240 million; I recall the figure from 
elsewhere.)
If you consider that to have been an unacceptable number, then I think you need 
to try to explain away any system that claims that it has the "horsepower" to 
stop such slaughter.    If anything, the only criticisms I have heard of AP is 
that it would be TOO effective, not that it would not be powerful enough to get 
rid of the governments that kill.  (And, ultimately, ALL governments.)
                Jim Bell   

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[jim bell]

 From: grarpamp 
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> Seems to be a first for any US 
> election.https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/

>This compilation from before election...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc

>Violence not a good solution.
These people are very misguided.  If anyone, they should be protesting Hillary 
Clinton, the DNC, John Podesta, her other aides and allies,and the various 
examples of corruption that have occurred.  Do they not realize that the 
election went the way it did not merely because of the email leaks, but more 
fundamentally because these corrupt people did things the way they did, and 
then they chose to talk about that in a medium that at one point they 
considered secure and safe.  Didn't turn out to be, huh?
In, say, 2013, the average Hillary-supporter could have said that she was 
capable, competent, experienced, and honest, and not risk too much laughter 
from the rest of us.  By late 2016, everything had changed.  Do her supporters 
actually believe that the only problem is the exposure of her, rather than her 
underlying behavior?
        Jim Bell



   

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:19:21 -0500
Steve Kinney  wrote:


> 
> Gene Sharp's description of the American Revolution provides an
> excellent example:  In brief, Sharp contends that the war was largely
> a matter of the Crown attempting to take its colonies back over from
> their residents, who had negated most Crown authority through large
> scale non-cooperation and the development of parallel institutions
> rendering the Crown's administration obsolete.


Crass American Propaganda. There was no 'revolution', just a
coup carried by the most corrupt 'aristocracy' aka oligarchy on
the planet. 


> 
> http://www.fragmentsweb.org/fourtx/dishist.pdf
> 
> So-called revolutions that start with gunfire, end in Fascist police
> states 

Or they start as a slave society, like the US, and remain a
slave society for half its history, like the US, and then become
a global fascist empire, like the US. 


>- because they are not revolutions so much as coups that kick
> out the old bastards to make way for new, worse bastards.  When they
> "succeed" that's normally due to backing by hostile foreign powers.


That would be france backing slave owners jefferson and
washington I suppose =)




> 
> :o)
> 
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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[juan]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:06:33 -0500
John Newman  wrote:

> 
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 10:58 AM, Razer  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
> > nonsense:
> > 
> >> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> >> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
> >> 
> >> Sometimes it's the solution. 
> >> 
> >> John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
> > solution itself
> 
> Yes , truly spoken.
> 
> The thing about violence is - science has advanced so many "wonderful
> ways" for us to kill ourselves, 


Not meaning to re-start a flame war =P,  but I think you mean
technology, not science. Yes, technological development is
(partly) related to what can be called 'basic' science but
 they are distinct. 


> it becomes increasingly obvious
> humanity needs to either disavow war altogether (how to do that I
> have no idea) or face the inevitable conclusion that we are going to
> fucking destroy ourselves. 

That's a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as too
consistent with the 'science' of 'biology' - How many examples
of species that commit collective suicide are there? Why should
human *animals* be different? Even inter species competition
doesn't lead to complete destruction usually.

On the other hand, given the trends in 'networking' and
totalitarianism, it wouldn't be too surprising if the human
race became some sort of collective entity in which our ruling
monsters (say google and clinton) would act as a 'brain'. 



>Fermi paradox solved =)
> 
> 
> 
> John 

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Steve Kinney]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 11/10/2016 10:58 AM, Razer wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical
> nonsense:
> 
>> Violence ended slavery in the South. Violence created the so
>> called "land of the free" =)
>> 
>> Sometimes it's the solution.
>> 
>> John
> 
> Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the 
> solution itself.
> 
> Rr

Right you are:  Everyone from Mao Tse Tung to the authors of current
U.S. Army counter-insurgency manuals agrees, an armed uprising needs a
/much/ larger network of committed non-combatant supporters to
succeed.  That network has to be built, and it has to offer its
participants "real hope" of a better way of running things, before a
shooting war can succeed.

Gene Sharp's description of the American Revolution provides an
excellent example:  In brief, Sharp contends that the war was largely
a matter of the Crown attempting to take its colonies back over from
their residents, who had negated most Crown authority through large
scale non-cooperation and the development of parallel institutions
rendering the Crown's administration obsolete.

http://www.fragmentsweb.org/fourtx/dishist.pdf

So-called revolutions that start with gunfire, end in Fascist police
states - because they are not revolutions so much as coups that kick
out the old bastards to make way for new, worse bastards.  When they
"succeed" that's normally due to backing by hostile foreign powers.

:o)


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Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Razer]

On 11/10/2016 03:47 AM, John Newman wrote some non-analytical nonsense:

> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
> John



Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
solution itself.

Rr

Ps. Violence did NOT end slavery anywhere in the US. Most Blacks are
still Captive African Colonized People, and slaves. Their "labor" right
now is to be unemployed and living in Gaza-like ghettos where the police
kill and imprison them like fish in a tank, to keep unemployment numbers
up, and wages for the rest of us in control.


>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>>
>> This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>>
>> Violence not a good solution.
> Violence ended slavery in the South. 
> Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
> Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
> John


Violence is a tactic. It can LEAD to a solution but it is not the
solution itself.

Rr

Ps. Violence did NOT end slavery anywhere in the US. Most Blacks are
still Captive African Colonized People, and slaves. Their "labor" right
now is to be unemployed and living in Gaza-like ghettos where the police
kill and imprison them like fish in a tank, to keep unemployment numbers
up, and wages for the rest of us in control.

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[Me]

On November 10, 2016 5:47:41 AM CST, John Newman  wrote:
>
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp 
>wrote:
>>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
>> 
>>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
>>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
>> 
>> This compilation from before election...
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
>> 
>> Violence not a good solution.
>
>Violence ended slavery in the South. 
>Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)
>
>Sometimes it's the solution. 
>
>John

It is never the solution when it is funded and organized by George Soros.

-John

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[John Newman]

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 3:02 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
>> Seems to be a first for any US election.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/
> 
> This compilation from before election...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc
> 
> Violence not a good solution.

Violence ended slavery in the South. 
Violence created the so called "land of the free" =)

Sometimes it's the solution. 

John

Re: US: Post Election Protests

[grarpamp]

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 12:56 AM, grarpamp  wrote:
> Seems to be a first for any US election.

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c4xxl/protesters_block_entrance_to_trump_tower/
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5c1vo7/protests_erupt_following_donald_trumps/

This compilation from before election...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMux_UHmpvc

Violence not a good solution.