Re: pycharm package in debian
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > > May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we > already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means > to install and update the application? >From an end user point of view, the benefit of having pycharm in Debian is good as having any other package - to be able to use the tools in Debian ecosystem, not worry about conflicts with other packages, get support from Debian mailing lists etc., etc., -- Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog
Re: pycharm package in debian
Andrey Rahmatullin writes: > On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 06:38:03PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of > > your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and > > quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever... > That's how text parts of text+html mails often look like. It is a recent breakage on GMail: the text body is broken (quoted text is indistinguishable from non-quoted text). As I don't use GMail I don't know what the author can do to correct this. Those using GMail should engage with their support team to get this fixed for all users. Until then, use a different client for composing messages. -- \ “As soon as we abandon our own reason, and are content to rely | `\ upon authority, there is no end to our troubles.” —Bertrand | _o__)Russell, _Unpopular Essays_, 1950 | Ben Finney
Re: pycharm package in debian
On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 06:38:03PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of > your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and > quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever... That's how text parts of text+html mails often look like. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 01.10.2017 21:33, Thomas Goirand wrote: > On 10/01/2017 09:47 AM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: >> Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring >> the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like >> the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at >> keeping up with updates. > > I definitively prefer a Debian package in main, even if it is "lagging > behind" as you said. For such a thing as an IDE, I expect it to be > mature enough so that the older version is enough for the everyday use. > And I would feel safer than using any random snap package. Who knows > what security issue is in there and what security policy and procedure > (if any) is in place. who says that a "lagging behind" package doesn't have any security issues? If the package is lagging behind, how do you know that security updates aren't lagging behind either... Do you want point users to the five year lagging behind eclipse package in Debian?
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 2017-10-01 23:16, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 04:52:55PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian. > > Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party > > package, I'm unsure how to work with it: > > > > How to install? > I expand the tarball to ~ ... This is my point: I'm too lazy and too old to find out for every random application how to install, uninstall, upgrade it, find out which version, if any, is installed on my system, whether the software complies with the DFSG, etc. > Surely you don't expect the Debian maintainers to fix bugs you could > encounter in PyCharm? I expect Debian maintainers to forward bugs to upstream, if they assume, that the bug is not introduced by them. (For some highly complex software, like Gnome or KDE, this is not practical, but for many packages this should work.) Cheers
snap in debian
Ghislain Vaillant writes: > May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we > already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as > means to install and update the application? For what its worth, last time I tried snap on Debian stable I found it didn't work reliably. I asked in Stack Overflow, and managed to backport the version of snap from unstable. Where I encountered exactly the same problems as before: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46127373/snap-packages-on-debian-stable So possibly at least one of my problems is a Kernel issue in Debian stable (at least my current theory), however this seems to indicate to me that snap is still somewhat bleeding edge and cannot be relied on. -- Brian May
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 01/10/17 20:33, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 10/01/2017 09:47 AM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at keeping up with updates. I definitively prefer a Debian package in main, even if it is "lagging behind" as you said. For such a thing as an IDE, I expect it to be mature enough so that the older version is enough for the everyday use. And I would feel safer than using any random snap package. Who knows what security issue is in there and what security policy and procedure (if any) is in place. You guessed it there are none. Confinement is disabled for the pycharm snap, so it behaves like any other application installed via a deb package. Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular piece of software would particularly care. I at least would care. And would very much welcome anyone doing the work of packaging and maintaining this kind of software. Don't get me wrong, I would welcome such effort too. I just wanted to emphasize the implication and level of commitment that such effort would require. We have been there with eclipse and atom, the former is (still) lagging quite badly, and the latter was stopped at the initial packaging stage. Ghis
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 10/01/2017 09:47 AM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring > the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like > the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at > keeping up with updates. I definitively prefer a Debian package in main, even if it is "lagging behind" as you said. For such a thing as an IDE, I expect it to be mature enough so that the older version is enough for the everyday use. And I would feel safer than using any random snap package. Who knows what security issue is in there and what security policy and procedure (if any) is in place. > Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG perspective. > I am just questioning whether users of this particular piece of software > would particularly care. I at least would care. And would very much welcome anyone doing the work of packaging and maintaining this kind of software. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: pycharm package in debian
On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 04:52:55PM +0200, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian. > Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party > package, I'm unsure how to work with it: > > How to install? I expand the tarball to ~ > How to uninstall? I would remove ~/pycharm > How to report bugs and to whom? Help / Report Problem opens the upstream JIRA. Surely you don't expect the Debian maintainers to fix bugs you could encounter in PyCharm? > How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it > DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?) Those are irrelevant to me as I use the paid version, so... -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 2017-10-01 17:16, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > Most likely a lot. We are talking about a large application with probably > quite a few dependencies in Java / Kotlin. > > Why not? Because failure to commit to regular updates would feed the > current narrative that Debian ships old and loosely maintained software. > Especially when there are other means of installing the software which are > officially documented upstream. > > I have been there with packages I personally maintain (spyder for > instance), and I am raising these concerns out of my own experience and > feedback from existing users. Feel free to disregard. Those are absolutely valid concers. I'm aware of many outdated packages, including some maintained by me. I leave the challenge to those, who like to package it. Still, if PyCharm were in Debian, I would at least try it out some day. Cheers PS: Is there maybe something broken with the quoting function of your MUA? I cannot differentiate between text written by you and quoted text. There is no '> ' or whatever...
Re: pycharm package in debian
Le 1 oct. 2017 15:53, "W. Martin Borgert" a écrit : On 2017-10-01 08:26, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we > already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means > to install and update the application? I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian. Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party package, I'm unsure how to work with it: You mean the average user cannot use Google? The installation instructions on Jetbrain's website sounds pretty clear to me, so is installing a snap package. How to install? How to uninstall? How to report bugs and to whom? How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?) You and I care about these things as Debian contributors. The average Joe however usually does not. There is nothing wrong with having snap or other packages available, but I'm not their target audience. But I'm an Emacs - and vi! - user anyway :~) Whatever works for you. Actually, vim can be turned into a fine Python editor. Another question is, how much work it will be and whether it is worth the effort, esp. permanent maintenance. But if somebody wants to do it, why not? Most likely a lot. We are talking about a large application with probably quite a few dependencies in Java / Kotlin. Why not? Because failure to commit to regular updates would feed the current narrative that Debian ships old and loosely maintained software. Especially when there are other means of installing the software which are officially documented upstream. I have been there with packages I personally maintain (spyder for instance), and I am raising these concerns out of my own experience and feedback from existing users. Feel free to disregard. Ghis
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 2017-10-01 08:26, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we > already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means > to install and update the application? I usually start to use software, when it arrives in Debian. Or I package it. If there is some snap or other third party package, I'm unsure how to work with it: How to install? How to uninstall? How to report bugs and to whom? How to download the source code and rebuild it? Is it DFSG-free anyway? (Does it already build reproducible?) There is nothing wrong with having snap or other packages available, but I'm not their target audience. But I'm an Emacs - and vi! - user anyway :~) Another question is, how much work it will be and whether it is worth the effort, esp. permanent maintenance. But if somebody wants to do it, why not? Cheers
Re: pycharm package in debian
Ghislain Vaillant writes: > All 3 means of installation (Jetbrain's app, snap and potentially apt) > are one-liners for the end-user. So, ease-of-use is hardly a > compelling argument. That's not the argument I made. I am satying that there are people who are not in the set of people who will install Snap or Flatpak or etc., because it's too much hassle to know whether it is free software or whether it will work correctly with the rest of the system. Getting the work as free software in Debian opens up the package for installation by those people. I count myself among them. I say this to counter the idea that there is a set of “users of this software package” that is not affected by whether the software is in Debian. That is false, and indeed getting the package maintained in Debian is a way to *increase* the potential members of that set. So, I don't find the “would users of this software package care about it being in Debian” query not compelling, because it makes a false assumption about the relationship. -- \“If we ruin the Earth, there is no place else to go. This is | `\not a disposable world, and we are not yet able to re-engineer | _o__) other planets.” —Carl Sagan, _Cosmos_, 1980 | Ben Finney
Re: pycharm package in debian
Le 1 oct. 2017 09:49, "Ben Finney" a écrit : Ghislain Vaillant writes: > Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG > perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular > piece of software would particularly care. The same could be asked of many user-facing packages in Debian. Your question, though, makes an incorrect assumption: that “users of this particular piece of software” is a group whose membership is unaffected by having the package in Debian. On the contrary. Take me as a counter-example. I am not a user of this particular piece of software, because I have little interest in judging for myself the hundreds of user-facing applications on my system. If it were in Debian I can then take all the assurance that brings about freedom and maintenance, and I may indeed consider using this particular piece of software where otherwise I would not. So, one important reason to package a work in Debian is to *increase* the set of people who can easily install and use it. All 3 means of installation (Jetbrain's app, snap and potentially apt) are one-liners for the end-user. So, ease-of-use is hardly a compelling argument. And I don't question your initial assessment about other applications in the archive. Hence myself mentioning eclipse earlier, as a similar package which used to be actively maintained until the effort died out. I am just wondering whether an effort to package pycharm would not reach the same outcome, assuming it passes the initial import phase. The Atom IDE for instance never did. Ghis
Re: pycharm package in debian
Ghislain Vaillant writes: > Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG > perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular > piece of software would particularly care. The same could be asked of many user-facing packages in Debian. Your question, though, makes an incorrect assumption: that “users of this particular piece of software” is a group whose membership is unaffected by having the package in Debian. On the contrary. Take me as a counter-example. I am not a user of this particular piece of software, because I have little interest in judging for myself the hundreds of user-facing applications on my system. If it were in Debian I can then take all the assurance that brings about freedom and maintenance, and I may indeed consider using this particular piece of software where otherwise I would not. So, one important reason to package a work in Debian is to *increase* the set of people who can easily install and use it. -- \ “Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?” “Uh, I think so | `\ Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.” —_Pinky and The Brain_ | _o__) | Ben Finney
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 01/10/17 08:38, Paul Wise wrote: On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means to install and update the application? I've never heard of the first of those, definitely wouldn't use the snap package and probably not the Jetbrains thing, unless either of them were built entirely from packages in Debian main, which I am assuming they aren't ever going to be. Sure, though I foresee the sheer amount of packaging work to get this sort of app in the archive to be quite a challenge, both from an initial packaging and on-going maintenance effort. Look at what happened with eclipse for instance. Besides, rrom an end-user perspective, I can't picture anyone preferring the (potentially lagging) packaged version over more official means like the Jetbrains app or the snap package, both of which have been good at keeping up with updates. Don't get me wrong, I understand the rationales from a DFSG perspective. I am just questioning whether users of this particular piece of software would particularly care. Ghis
Re: pycharm package in debian
On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 3:26 PM, Ghislain Vaillant wrote: > May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we > already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means > to install and update the application? I've never heard of the first of those, definitely wouldn't use the snap package and probably not the Jetbrains thing, unless either of them were built entirely from packages in Debian main, which I am assuming they aren't ever going to be. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: pycharm package in debian
On 01/10/17 02:36, Paul Wise wrote: On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Julien Puydt wrote: Le 30/09/2017 à 14:22, kamaraju kusumanchi a écrit : Are there any plans to make a debian package of pycharm that is part of official debian? I used their community edition on windows 7 and it is awesome. Maybe you should look at WNPP to see if someone filed a RFP or ITP, and if not, submit a RFP yourself? Looks like someone attempted it but gave up, so if you would like to do it that would be great. https://bugs.debian.org/742394 https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers May I ask what would be the benefit for pycharm to be in Debian, when we already have the official Jetbrains Toolbox App or the snap package as means to install and update the application? Ghis
