Re: a new cocoon logo?
Upayavira wrote: > hepabolu wrote: > > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > > > >> +1 to new skin but only with new content. > > > > I'd like a more lighter (i.e. in color) skin, much along the lines of > > the current Maven site. > > > > If you want to make new content a prerequisite for a new skin, it won't > > happen for a long time. The speed of updating/adding content is simply > > too slow for that. > > I'd propose an new skin for Cocoon 2.2. > > I agree. Now, you might think that there's no new documentation in > Daisy. I would tend to disagree. There's been a certain 'freshening' of > the docs there, which, to my mind, is sufficient to justify a new skin. > A new skin would be a part of the 'our documentation has changed/is > changing' message, and would be good to have done before 2.2 is released. How about choosing a new set of colours, perhaps based on the light-blue of the Cocoon logo: http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/PoweredByCocoon It is easy to change the colours. Edit this (search in file for https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/cocoon/whiteboard/daisy-to-docs/src/documentation/skinconf.xml and watch the changes show up at: http://forrest.zones.apache.org/ft/build/cocoon-docs/2.1/ -David
Re: a new cocoon logo?
hepabolu wrote: > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > >> +1 to new skin but only with new content. > > > I'd like a more lighter (i.e. in color) skin, much along the lines of > the current Maven site. > > If you want to make new content a prerequisite for a new skin, it won't > happen for a long time. The speed of updating/adding content is simply > too slow for that. > I'd propose an new skin for Cocoon 2.2. I agree. Now, you might think that there's no new documentation in Daisy. I would tend to disagree. There's been a certain 'freshening' of the docs there, which, to my mind, is sufficient to justify a new skin. A new skin would be a part of the 'our documentation has changed/is changing' message, and would be good to have done before 2.2 is released. >> -1 to the logo, no reason to change a widely recognized one with a new >> one just for sake of change. > > There is no reason to stick with the current logo forever. A slight > change that "modernizes" the logo would be ok. And I don't want to start > the discussion on what "modern" is. > However, I'm -1 on the initial proposal since there is no relation with > the old logo. But +1 to the initiative that Frédéric took. We need more of that. Maybe he can take this as some interesting feedback to his design, and show us what he can come up with next, logo or skin-wise. > All good changes come in many small steps. Yup. Upayavira
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Il giorno 02/nov/05, alle ore 23:06, Stefano Mazzocchi ha scritto: +1 to new skin but only with new content. Agree. -1 to the logo, no reason to change a widely recognized one with a new one just for sake of change. Agree as well. Let's keep the current logo, at least until we release Cocoon 3. Ugo -- Ugo Cei Tech Blog: http://agylen.com/ Open Source Zone: http://oszone.org/ Wine & Food Blog: http://www.divinocibo.it/
Re: a new cocoon logo?
On Wednesday 02 November 2005 18:30, Jorg Heymans wrote: > Agreed, but a new logo when we release 2.2 or 3.0 would be highly > desirable from a marketing point of view. The current one is starting to > show its age IMO. The reason that you drink Coca-Cola, smoke Marlboro, drive Mercedes and buy Sony camcorders, is decades of focused "branding". Part of the branding are logotypes, which by coincidence doesn't change, just because the company feels it needs to re-invent itself or have a new model/product out. Logotype changes are rare and extremely expensive from a marketing point of view. Example; A company in Sweden changed name from "LM Ericsson" to "Ericsson" and did a logotype change, from the original 1800s something to a new one, in the 1980s, since they wanted to re-invent themselves to be more "consumer oriented". Massive discontent among the swedish population, since the company was known there as "EllEm". I think it took about 8-10years for that to settle in, and a massive bill of marketing to back it up. Software in general, and OSS in particular is perhaps too new to understand and harness these mechanisms, but we can see strong awareness from Microsoft, Intel and even Linux around these concerns. Don't throw away assets that can't easily be replaced. Cheers
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: +1 to new skin but only with new content. I'd like a more lighter (i.e. in color) skin, much along the lines of the current Maven site. If you want to make new content a prerequisite for a new skin, it won't happen for a long time. The speed of updating/adding content is simply too slow for that. I'd propose an new skin for Cocoon 2.2. -1 to the logo, no reason to change a widely recognized one with a new one just for sake of change. There is no reason to stick with the current logo forever. A slight change that "modernizes" the logo would be ok. And I don't want to start the discussion on what "modern" is. However, I'm -1 on the initial proposal since there is no relation with the old logo. All good changes come in many small steps. Bye, Helma
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Jorg Heymans wrote:
Agreed, but a new logo when we release 2.2 or 3.0 would be highly
desirable from a marketing point of view. The current one is starting to
show its age IMO.
Call me old fart, but I'm *strongly* -1 about a logo change.
me too
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Jorg Heymans wrote: Agreed, but a new logo when we release 2.2 or 3.0 would be highly desirable from a marketing point of view. The current one is starting to show its age IMO. Call me old fart, but I'm *strongly* -1 about a logo change. -- Stefano.
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Torsten Curdt wrote: I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people that something new is there. About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. +1 to all :) +1 to new skin but only with new content. -1 to the logo, no reason to change a widely recognized one with a new one just for sake of change. -- Stefano.
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Jorg Heymans wrote: I won't argue marketing tactics here. If this is the general feeling then I have no problem with this :) FWIW, my suggestion was inspired by the maven project, compare [1] with [2]. (ok their first logo wasn't really a logo, but still) Jorg [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20041128044247/http://maven.apache.org/ [2] http://maven.apache.org/ What logo? I don't see any logo at [2] - unless you are talking about somebody's butt sitting on a table. Or are you talking about maven with a red 'a'? I always think of a logo as something that would look OK as an icon on my task bar. Somebody's butt doesn't qualify. Ralph
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Joerg Heinicke wrote: > > A new logo should at least look similar to the current one to get > recognized again - even with new versions of Cocoon. Anything else is > bad from marketing POV. > I won't argue marketing tactics here. If this is the general feeling then I have no problem with this :) FWIW, my suggestion was inspired by the maven project, compare [1] with [2]. (ok their first logo wasn't really a logo, but still) Jorg [1] http://web.archive.org/web/20041128044247/http://maven.apache.org/ [2] http://maven.apache.org/
Re: a new cocoon logo?
On 02.11.2005 20:08, Ralph Goers wrote: Aren't there 3 o's each cocooning a dot? Yes, there are 3 o's each containing a dot. In what strange world does that make them into cocoon's? These look more like cocoon's to me. Must it always be that obvious ;) Jörg
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Joerg Heinicke wrote: On 02.11.2005 15:42, Ralph Goers wrote: I've always wondered why the logo isn't a cocoon? Aren't there 3 o's each cocooning a dot? Jörg Yes, there are 3 o's each containing a dot. In what strange world does that make them into cocoon's? These look more like cocoon's to me. http://www.naute.com/images/cocoon.gif http://www.cuanswers.com/img/conv-cocoon.jpg
Re: a new cocoon logo?
On 02.11.2005 10:48, Sylvain Wallez wrote: About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. And IMO it looks even more "modern" than the proposal. On 02.11.2005 11:30, Jorg Heymans wrote: Agreed, but a new logo when we release 2.2 or 3.0 would be highly desirable from a marketing point of view. The current one is starting to show its age IMO. A new logo should at least look similar to the current one to get recognized again - even with new versions of Cocoon. Anything else is bad from marketing POV. On 02.11.2005 15:42, Ralph Goers wrote: I've always wondered why the logo isn't a cocoon? Aren't there 3 o's each cocooning a dot? Jörg
Re: a new cocoon logo?
On 11/2/05, Ralph Goers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Sylvain Wallez wrote: > > > > > About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way > > more readable and is also well-known. > > > > Sylvain > > I prefer the current one as well, but I have to be honest. I've always > wondered why the logo isn't a cocoon? I always sort of figured that symbolically at least there was a Cocoon in the logo; the oval wrapping around the word Cocoon... I _might_ play with different colors but I like the current design. -- Peter Hunsberger
Re: a new cocoon logo?
> I've always wondered why the logo isn't a cocoon? that's exactly what I liked about the new logo (Frédéric's). The arragement of the letters let it look like a cocoon (at least a bit). Perheps having a combination of the old cocoon 'logo' and a little cocoon makes it easier to remember (A cocoon with a feather perhaps). At the moment it's not much a logo, it's just a text. Christoph
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. Sylvain I prefer the current one as well, but I have to be honest. I've always wondered why the logo isn't a cocoon? Ralph
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people that something new is there. Well put. About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. In a fit of boredom a couple years ago, I tried re-doing the logo, and Stefano shot the idea down. I was a little upset about it, but your comment summed up his reasoning for not changing the logo, and I agree with it now :) Tony
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Thank for all your comments. I agree the name "cocoon" in the logo is not that evident, specially if you don't know what it is all about. I take note for the website, be sure I gonna work on it and hope I'll be able to show you something soon, at least about the samples. Looking forward, Frédéric Moser
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Le 1 nov. 05, à 19:54, Frédéric Moser a écrit : ...I had an attack of inspiration for a cocoon logo, I don't know if you need a new one and if you'll like it... I'm not sure if we need a new *different* logo - I like your proposal from a pure graphical point of view, but it's not obvious that it says "Cocoon" (at least not for people my age ;-), so I wouldn't vote for it in its current form. But it's very hard to agree on these things anyway, I think if we want a new logo, the way to go is to have a contest and vote on the new logo, as agreeing on these things by discussion usually doesn't work. ...I would be glad if it could bring something to the project which helped me more than once... As you obviously have some graphic skills, how about contributing an improved design for our samples? Others think the website needs a redesign, I tend to agree but I think it's even worse with the samples. I'm thinking of http://cocoon.zones.apache.org/demos/trunk/ - having an improved look of our samples for 2.2 would be a Good Thing, ideally synced with a redesign of the website, but again I think the samples are even more urgent. So just give us your finger, we'll take the whole arm ;-) Seriously, as you're noticing from this thread, help is more than welcome in these areas if you are ready to contribute... -Bertrand
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: > I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign > with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more > harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we > definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people > that something new is there. +1 > About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way > more readable and is also well-known. Agreed, but a new logo when we release 2.2 or 3.0 would be highly desirable from a marketing point of view. The current one is starting to show its age IMO. Jorg
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Ross Gardler wrote: > Sylvain Wallez wrote: > >> Jeroen Reijn wrote: >> >>> Hi Frédéric, >>> >>> looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see >>> that the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make >>> the buzz. >> >> >> >> I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign >> with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more >> harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we >> definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show >> people that something new is there. >> >> About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way >> more readable and is also well-known. > > > Some of the Forrest team have been working on a superb new skinning > system. It is much easier to customise than the old one. It is also > possible to change the skin at any level of granularity (e.g. per site, > per directory, per document type, per page). For example, you could have > a different look and feel for the user sections and the dev sections. > > The system uses CSS for the visual presentation and a "structurer" that > defines what is included in the page, e.g. navigation sections, news > feeds, theme switchers, > > It's been working for quite some time and is just nearing its second > redesign. However, it *is* part of the 0.8-dev cycle so is not > completely stable yet. > > There is only one new skin using this system at present, if anyone wants > to have a bash at it I could create a version of the forrestbot that > builds the Cocoon site with views (we have duplicated the existing > Forrest skins as well). > > The other option for a new skin would be to use Daisy's own skinning > system and drop Forrest altogether (you'd use wget to publish the site). > I don't use that approach myself because although the Daisy skinning > system is improving it is still to cumbersome to work with for many > people requires XSL, and CSS skills, together with a knowledge of > Daisy's document structure. However, that may not be a concern here > since all Cocoon users are comfortable wth XML/XSL (and CSS?) > > Another problem with Daisy is that people wishing to develop a skin for > it will have to install it locally and create some sample documents to > work with. This is also true of Forrest, but the process is much easier > since t is a simple binaray download. Personally, I'm not that fussed what produces the skin. Skins aren't changed that often compared to content, and us lot are good at XSL anyway. What matters is that we show a modern skin to punters. In some cases, we may have less than 2 seconds in which to attract someone to Cocoon, and the look of the skin is going to be crucial to that. As is the wording on the homepage. Regards, Upayavira
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: Jeroen Reijn wrote: Hi Frédéric, looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see that the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make the buzz. I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people that something new is there. About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. Some of the Forrest team have been working on a superb new skinning system. It is much easier to customise than the old one. It is also possible to change the skin at any level of granularity (e.g. per site, per directory, per document type, per page). For example, you could have a different look and feel for the user sections and the dev sections. The system uses CSS for the visual presentation and a "structurer" that defines what is included in the page, e.g. navigation sections, news feeds, theme switchers, It's been working for quite some time and is just nearing its second redesign. However, it *is* part of the 0.8-dev cycle so is not completely stable yet. There is only one new skin using this system at present, if anyone wants to have a bash at it I could create a version of the forrestbot that builds the Cocoon site with views (we have duplicated the existing Forrest skins as well). The other option for a new skin would be to use Daisy's own skinning system and drop Forrest altogether (you'd use wget to publish the site). I don't use that approach myself because although the Daisy skinning system is improving it is still to cumbersome to work with for many people requires XSL, and CSS skills, together with a knowledge of Daisy's document structure. However, that may not be a concern here since all Cocoon users are comfortable wth XML/XSL (and CSS?) Another problem with Daisy is that people wishing to develop a skin for it will have to install it locally and create some sample documents to work with. This is also true of Forrest, but the process is much easier since t is a simple binaray download. Ross
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Sylvain Wallez wrote: > Jeroen Reijn wrote: > >> Hi Frédéric, >> >> looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see >> that the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make >> the buzz. > > > I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign > with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more > harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we > definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people > that something new is there. > > About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way > more readable and is also well-known. I can see your point. But to my mind, Frédéric's logo clearly shows a competence with things graphical. I would be curious to see a skin he might come up with for the new docs. Regards, Upayavira
Re: a new cocoon logo?
I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people that something new is there. About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. +1 to all :) cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Jeroen Reijn wrote: Hi Frédéric, looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see that the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make the buzz. I agree that the Cocoon website needs a redesign. However, a redesign with the same old content doesn't really makes sense and could do more harm than good. But with the cool new documentation that is coming, we definitely have to change the skin of our website to clearly show people that something new is there. About the logo, however, I really prefer the current one, which is way more readable and is also well-known. Sylvain -- Sylvain WallezAnyware Technologies http://people.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Jeroen Reijn wrote: > Hi Frédéric, > > looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see that > the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make the buzz. Yes, the logo is rather fun, but a more modern skin would really help too. Regards, Upayavira > Frédéric Moser wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I had an attack of inspiration for a cocoon logo, I don't know if you >> need a new one and if you'll like it. >> I would be glad if it could bring something to the project which >> helped me more than once. >> >> Anyway I join a sketch of it, tell me if you would like me to change >> anything. >> >> Have a nice day, >> >> Frédéric Moser >> >> >> >> >
Re: a new cocoon logo?
Hi Frédéric, looks nice! Beside the cocoon logo, I personally would like to see that the cocoon website gets a redesign. Especially if we want make the buzz. Jeroen Frédéric Moser wrote: Hi all, I had an attack of inspiration for a cocoon logo, I don't know if you need a new one and if you'll like it. I would be glad if it could bring something to the project which helped me more than once. Anyway I join a sketch of it, tell me if you would like me to change anything. Have a nice day, Frédéric Moser
a new cocoon logo?
Hi all, I had an attack of inspiration for a cocoon logo, I don't know if you need a new one and if you'll like it. I would be glad if it could bring something to the project which helped me more than once. Anyway I join a sketch of it, tell me if you would like me to change anything. Have a nice day, Frédéric Moser cocoon_logo_black.png Description: PNG image
