Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 18:58:21 UTC, Artur Skawina wrote: On 01/23/16 02:11, ronaldmc via Digitalmars-d wrote: Linux development works because Linus is right often enough. It really is that simple. But I also think Linus weighs different solutions (and implementations and performance) before landing on a decision? So the "democratic" aspect is: 1. Being able to put forth different implementations for evaluation. 2. Being able to fork the project (SELinux?) and merge back the proven solutions. Anyway, it is important that one person feel responsible for every single aspect of the design and is able to defend status quo of the whole. Otherwise you get a blame game instead: "Oh, I didn't really agree with 50% of the features we added so I don't really know why they are there or if they should be there. You know, I told you guys it was a bad idea to have those features, so I think the ones that voted for them should fix it."
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 00:30:17 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: got this strange notion from. Walter is the one who invented this language, and he has been generous enough to let the rest of us participate in its development. Yes, I agree with this. If anything, bringing too much democracy into a design process makes things bloated and inconsistent. Walter has probably been too accepting of suggestions to new features in the past. But if someone steps up as a committed graphic designer it would be a good idea to give that person free hands. That's very motivating. Meritocracy is not a horrible concept though. Implementing bad ideas and refusing good ideas based on who suggested it is just dumb. You need a lead designer that plots out what needs to be done and brings it all together as a whole. That said, it would be downright silly to not accept the two bottom logos ;-).
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 00:46, anonymous wrote: http://i.imgur.com/eJaKFtx.png [...] For dlang.org, I'd choose the version with the wide background arc. I think it looks nice on the menu bar, and it puts a little more emphasis there than just the core shape. But just the core shape looks fine, too. I made a pull request for the wide one (the third one from the top): https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dlang.org/pull/1212
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Sunday, 24 January 2016 at 13:03:36 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote: Meritocracy is not a horrible concept though. Err, type. I meant to say that is a horrible concept. It is better than seniority, but makes no sense outside a hierarchical power structure IMO.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 2016-01-22 00:46, anonymous wrote: http://i.imgur.com/eJaKFtx.png The first one is the current logo. The last one shows just the core shape (D + moons), of course. I vote the last one as the official out of context logo. I vote the third one for the web site. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 01:23:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: This is not the governance of a country. If you don't like the way the decisions are being made, you always have the freedom to take the source code (except for the proprietary backend), fork it, and build your own community. There will be no army sent after you to force you to comply with the "dictator's" decisions, since this is a programming language, not a government. If your technical merit is superior, your community will eventually prevail. And besides, calling something a "dictatorship" is again confusing the development of a programming language with running a government. I still fail to see the connection between the two. (And BTW, I do not speak for this community either. What I express here are just my own opinions. If you really have an issue with how things are run, you ought to be talking directly to Walter & Andrei, not wasting your breath arguing with me.) +1 many times over. And back to the original topic, my vote goes for the third one.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
I always wanted it to be a gif so the planet would appear to be subtly rotating and the edge of Deimos might twinkle slightly :-)
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 01/23/16 02:11, ronaldmc via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > What happens if a technical feature is vetoed by someone is charge even if it > has merit? Every wrong decision affects the project negatively. > Linux Foundation has a board members to approve or not new features or > changes, and finally after that it goes to Linus, and overall after passed by > the board it's almost approved by Linus too. I'd just ignore this, but somebody might actually believe it's true... Linux development works because Linus is right often enough. It really is that simple. artur
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 08:25:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: I always wanted it to be a gif so the planet would appear to be subtly rotating and the edge of Deimos might twinkle slightly :-) If it was meant to be a git then it makes more sense why it was as it is originally (but without the borders). I always thought the circles on the D was confusing since very few people will recognize without being told what it is. But when the rotation is added, it will be awesome!! (That is design).
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 20:28:57 UTC, anonymous wrote: On 22.01.2016 20:53, ronaldmc wrote: I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship. It's dictatorship insofar as Walter and Andrei have veto power. If they don't want something in, it doesn't go in. I don't think this is a problem in practice. If it was, the community could always fork the project and then play by their own rules. And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, in my opinion. I am yet to see any good come from such decisions. Disagreement should not be a reason for division. YOU CAN NEVER GET WHAT YOU WANT IN ALL SITUATIONS (whether your are right or wrong). So please learn from people's mistakes like what happened between nodejs and iojs :) Just a logo? Come on!! D is the created programming language I have ever used.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 01:23:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: ... And besides, calling something a "dictatorship" is again confusing the development of a programming language with running a government. I still fail to see the connection between the two. Because maybe you don't read too much (outside programming), you can easily find the term being used on open source. i.e: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/dictators_free_and_open_source_software And it's not new, there are old articles like from 2004: http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2004-08-17/linus-torvalds-benevolent-dictatorship (And BTW, I do not speak for this community either. What I express here are just my own opinions... You don't need to draw for me that you're an user as much I am and if you're writing something of course it's your opinion. I'm out for now, I'll don't reply anymore.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 15:41:43 UTC, ronaldmc wrote: On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 01:23:20 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: [...] Because maybe you don't read too much (outside programming), you can easily find the term being used on open source. i.e: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/dictators_free_and_open_source_software And it's not new, there are old articles like from 2004: http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2004-08-17/linus-torvalds-benevolent-dictatorship [...] You don't need to draw for me that you're an user as much I am and if you're writing something of course it's your opinion. I'm out for now, I'll don't reply anymore. It's actually a very common term in FOSS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life D is indeed Walter's ambition, and D2 is Walter/Andrei's. They have put the most effort into the project which is why their word gets the most weight, but I disagree with the notion that everyone else is shut out.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 1/23/2016 11:47 AM, karabuta wrote: On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 08:25:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: I always wanted it to be a gif so the planet would appear to be subtly rotating and the edge of Deimos might twinkle slightly :-) If it was meant to be a git then it makes more sense why it was as it is originally (but without the borders). I always thought the circles on the D was confusing since very few people will recognize without being told what it is. But when the rotation is added, it will be awesome!! (That is design). Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou6JNQwPWE0=player_detailpage#t=348
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 00:04:33 UTC, tsbockman wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:49:39 UTC, cym13 wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. [...] I love the third one from the top, it is close enough from the official logo to identify it with no difficulty and yet fits really well in the bar. Yes, the third is the best. The Martian horizon in the background is also a part of the core design of the logo; please don't drop it. I'm certain I've made this same argument in the past. For the website, the third one, without a doubt. For an application icon? Hm, I might prefer the second. -Wyatt
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 20:53, ronaldmc wrote: I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship. It's dictatorship insofar as Walter and Andrei have veto power. If they don't want something in, it doesn't go in. I don't think this is a problem in practice. If it was, the community could always fork the project and then play by their own rules. And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, in my opinion.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 20:28:57 UTC, anonymous wrote: And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, in my opinion. No, of course not. But I've saw something like this with features to be added on the language, like for example 300+ discussion thread with similar trend of being interposed by the "heads". In this case, this is not something critical by any means. But what I'm seeing here is the lack of vote for example, someone say Walter is against and that remains. So this is not the way a "Community" should be driven.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 20:28:57 UTC, anonymous wrote: On 22.01.2016 20:53, ronaldmc wrote: I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship. It's dictatorship insofar as Walter and Andrei have veto power. If they don't want something in, it doesn't go in. I don't think this is a problem in practice. If it was, the community could always fork the project and then play by their own rules. And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, in my opinion. Walter's "No" often gets bent a little bit by Andrei when he sees a good idea ;)
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 19:53:32 UTC, ronaldmc wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship. I think a fair explanation would be that it's a meritocracy of effort and ability. Walter has put an enormous amount of effort into D over a long period and therefore his view holds great sway. It's a good system for a project like this generally though it falls down a bit on issues that are more personal preference than technical.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 20:28:57 UTC, anonymous wrote: On 22.01.2016 20:53, ronaldmc wrote: I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship. It's dictatorship insofar as Walter and Andrei have veto power. If they don't want something in, it doesn't go in. I don't think this is a problem in practice. If it was, the community could always fork the project and then play by their own rules. And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, in my opinion. Just use all 4 logos. Change them at every new D release or something. I like a bit change. My desktop background also changes a bit.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. I don't want to start a war, but this isn't community? I mean aren't we trying to make things better, because the way you said it seems like a dictatorship.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 16:48, WebFreak001 wrote: (First I have fixed these weird curves on the D's bottom left and top left corner.) What's weird about them? As far as I see, you made the corners more pointed, though it's hard to tell at that size. I'm not sure if that's an improvement.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 19:00:41 UTC, anonymous wrote: On 22.01.2016 16:48, WebFreak001 wrote: (First I have fixed these weird curves on the D's bottom left and top left corner.) What's weird about them? As far as I see, you made the corners more pointed, though it's hard to tell at that size. I'm not sure if that's an improvement. Original: https://i.imgur.com/6M1Eoy2.png Fixed: https://i.imgur.com/uLuUgJY.png
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 20:08, WebFreak001 wrote: Original: https://i.imgur.com/6M1Eoy2.png Fixed: https://i.imgur.com/uLuUgJY.png :D Yeah, uhm, that's totally an improvement, of course.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. I certainly agree the logo is weak, to me the planets look more like a bad lens flare effect unfortunately. The bottom reflection bit needs to be removed but I think the planets/moons need to be spaced away from the D. The bigger dot overlapping the D just looks messy, like a misplaced paint blotch.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: For dlang.org, I'd choose the version with the wide background arc. I think it looks nice on the menu bar, and it puts a little more emphasis there than just the core shape. But just the core shape looks fine, too. For me its a tie between the last two. Both look much better than the current one in my opinion. If the decoration should be kept I think the second one is a better replacement to the current one. However the shadow opacity on the second one could be reduced a bit, because that is a bit too black.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 09:26:12PM +, ronaldmc via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 20:28:57 UTC, anonymous wrote: > >And of all things, the logo wouldn't be a good reason to divide over, > >in my opinion. > > No, of course not. But I've saw something like this with features to > be added on the language, like for example 300+ discussion thread with > similar trend of being interposed by the "heads". > > In this case, this is not something critical by any means. But what > I'm seeing here is the lack of vote for example, someone say Walter is > against and that remains. So this is not the way a "Community" should > be driven. [...] Huh? I thought we were designing a programming language, not running a democratic government. I don't understand where you got this strange notion from. Walter is the one who invented this language, and he has been generous enough to let the rest of us participate in its development. There is no bill of rights that says we have any say in anything at all, except that he has chosen to take heed to what we say as a mutual benefit. (And there shouldn't be such a thing as a bill of rights here either -- this is a programming language, not the governance of a country.) Plenty of successful software projects do not run "democratically" either (whatever that even means in a software project!), e.g. the Linux kernel where Linus basically has the final say in everything. Yet the Linux community is thriving just fine. I don't understand this fixation that everything must be voted on. What ought to rule in a programming language is technical merit, not popularity. T -- May you live all the days of your life. -- Jonathan Swift
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 20:08, WebFreak001 wrote: Original: https://i.imgur.com/6M1Eoy2.png Fixed: https://i.imgur.com/uLuUgJY.png Can you post the fixed SVG code, so that I can update my stuff?
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 15:48:04 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote: On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 15:25:25 UTC, anonymous wrote: Here's the SVG. Go crazy. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/421e80748f1c885f7620 (First I have fixed these weird curves on the D's bottom left and top left corner.) OK I have cropped it now and also tried to add a slight box shadow to it. https://i.imgur.com/r9WPvEX.png At the top left its just the cropped version on a "D-red" background. On the other 3 corners its the cropped version with a slight box shadow on various backgrounds. The version with the box shadow could be used as application icon for example. I think the padding on the top and bottom need to be the same as on the left and right. Looks good otherwise. I don't like the top-left option but all three of the others look good on their backgrounds.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
For the website, definitely number 3. As a standalone version, the fourth one can be used. Or if we insist on the "horizon" arc, maybe a version can be made that fades out the arc much closer to the "D", so that the entire logo fits into a nearly-square rectangle.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On 22.01.2016 15:44, WebFreak001 wrote: However I dont have an SVG for that and I basically just used the logo from the imgur screenshot, cut of a rounded rectangle (5px border radius) and added a simple box shadow (0px 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.3)) Here's the SVG. Go crazy. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/421e80748f1c885f7620
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. I agree with him that changing it to a completely different one would probably not be a good move, losing whatever brand recognition we have. But I think we should adapt the logo to the needs at hand. It's obvious to me that the D and the moons (the two circles to the upper right of the D) make the recognizable core of the logo. I know that others see it the same way. That means, the D and the moons should be kept intact. Their shapes and positions should not change. However, I believe we can take away a lot of the decorations of the current logo, and it will still be recognized immediately as the same brand. Here's a little progression of simplifications, in the context of dlang.org: http://i.imgur.com/eJaKFtx.png The first one is the current logo. The last one shows just the core shape (D + moons), of course. I'm not nearly the first one to do this, but I'd like to propose adopting the core shape as the official logo. Then specify some specific shade of red as the official brand color. (We're using #B03931 on dlang.org.) We could provide multiple variants of the logo for different use cases, and with varying levels of decoration: * Core shape in different color combinations (black one white, red on white, white on red). * Versions that include the background arc (I'm interpreting that as Mars), possibly in different colors. * The full version with border and shadow. I.e. the current logo with adjusted colors, and maybe some details changed, like number of borders or amount of shininess. For dlang.org, I'd choose the version with the wide background arc. I think it looks nice on the menu bar, and it puts a little more emphasis there than just the core shape. But just the core shape looks fine, too. This is something I've been vocal about before. The logo should stay the same but you do have artistic license to play with the structure. For example the third from the top of this image http://i.imgur.com/eJaKFtx.png is perfectly acceptable because the logo is intact, it's just used in a slightly different way. Think of the nike tick and how it has changed and been used over the years but it's always a tick. http://lh3.ggpht.com/_9F9_RUESS2E/SxploMIEQjI/Buc/EcOJ2hPM7PY/s800/logo-evolution-brand-companies-nike-swoosh.jpg
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 15:25:25 UTC, anonymous wrote: Here's the SVG. Go crazy. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/421e80748f1c885f7620 (First I have fixed these weird curves on the D's bottom left and top left corner.) OK I have cropped it now and also tried to add a slight box shadow to it. https://i.imgur.com/r9WPvEX.png At the top left its just the cropped version on a "D-red" background. On the other 3 corners its the cropped version with a slight box shadow on various backgrounds. The version with the box shadow could be used as application icon for example.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 14:26:21 UTC, Marc Schütz wrote: For the website, definitely number 3. As a standalone version, the fourth one can be used. Or if we insist on the "horizon" arc, maybe a version can be made that fades out the arc much closer to the "D", so that the entire logo fits into a nearly-square rectangle. Made the third one into a logo you could use on white background in case you need it: https://i.imgur.com/TXocm6E.png However I dont have an SVG for that and I basically just used the logo from the imgur screenshot, cut of a rounded rectangle (5px border radius) and added a simple box shadow (0px 1px 3px rgba(0,0,0,0.3))
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Friday, 22 January 2016 at 00:04:33 UTC, tsbockman wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:49:39 UTC, cym13 wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. [...] I love the third one from the top, it is close enough from the official logo to identify it with no difficulty and yet fits really well in the bar. Yes, the third is the best. The Martian horizon in the background is also a part of the core design of the logo; please don't drop it. Another vote for third.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 00:30:17 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: ... What ought to rule in a programming language is technical merit, not popularity. What happens if a technical feature is vetoed by someone is charge even if it has merit? And you're comparing Apples vs Oranges with the rest of your answer. Even when you talk about Linux (Org) and Linus, currently the Linux Foundation has a board members to approve or not new features or changes, and finally after that it goes to Linus, and overall after passed by the board it's almost approved by Linus too. And by the way let this talk about dictatorship go away, because I think It will do more harm than anything else.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 01:11:20AM +, ronaldmc via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On Saturday, 23 January 2016 at 00:30:17 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote: > >... What ought to rule in a programming language is technical merit, > >not popularity. > > What happens if a technical feature is vetoed by someone is charge > even if it has merit? This is not the governance of a country. If you don't like the way the decisions are being made, you always have the freedom to take the source code (except for the proprietary backend), fork it, and build your own community. There will be no army sent after you to force you to comply with the "dictator's" decisions, since this is a programming language, not a government. If your technical merit is superior, your community will eventually prevail. And besides, calling something a "dictatorship" is again confusing the development of a programming language with running a government. I still fail to see the connection between the two. (And BTW, I do not speak for this community either. What I express here are just my own opinions. If you really have an issue with how things are run, you ought to be talking directly to Walter & Andrei, not wasting your breath arguing with me.) --T
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. [...] I love the third one from the top, it is close enough from the official logo to identify it with no difficulty and yet fits really well in the bar.
[dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. I agree with him that changing it to a completely different one would probably not be a good move, losing whatever brand recognition we have. But I think we should adapt the logo to the needs at hand. It's obvious to me that the D and the moons (the two circles to the upper right of the D) make the recognizable core of the logo. I know that others see it the same way. That means, the D and the moons should be kept intact. Their shapes and positions should not change. However, I believe we can take away a lot of the decorations of the current logo, and it will still be recognized immediately as the same brand. Here's a little progression of simplifications, in the context of dlang.org: http://i.imgur.com/eJaKFtx.png The first one is the current logo. The last one shows just the core shape (D + moons), of course. I'm not nearly the first one to do this, but I'd like to propose adopting the core shape as the official logo. Then specify some specific shade of red as the official brand color. (We're using #B03931 on dlang.org.) We could provide multiple variants of the logo for different use cases, and with varying levels of decoration: * Core shape in different color combinations (black one white, red on white, white on red). * Versions that include the background arc (I'm interpreting that as Mars), possibly in different colors. * The full version with border and shadow. I.e. the current logo with adjusted colors, and maybe some details changed, like number of borders or amount of shininess. For dlang.org, I'd choose the version with the wide background arc. I think it looks nice on the menu bar, and it puts a little more emphasis there than just the core shape. But just the core shape looks fine, too.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:49:39 UTC, cym13 wrote: On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: The logo is repeatedly being called out as a weak spot of the D brand. But so far Walter has been adamant about keeping it the way it is. [...] I love the third one from the top, it is close enough from the official logo to identify it with no difficulty and yet fits really well in the bar. Yes, the third is the best. The Martian horizon in the background is also a part of the core design of the logo; please don't drop it.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: ... For me the last one. It's simple and clear. I really don't think the currently Logo is good for the new layout, I really dislike the black border. I don't know what the big deal with changing the Logo, since any big company out there change theirs from time to time (Coca-Cola, Microsoft, HP, Google and so on). Bubbasaur.
Re: [dlang.org] Let's talk about the logo
On Thursday, 21 January 2016 at 23:46:26 UTC, anonymous wrote: ... bottom two are the best. mixing matte and glossy is just *ugly*
