Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

On 7/11/2016 3:41 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote:

The batteries in my systems probably need replacing.
UPSes typically use some form of VRLA battery.  With computers, they're 
really to bridge short outages or allow a computer to gracefully shut 
down, and the designers assume that power outages are somewhat rare.


If you want these batteries to last, you try to keep the continuous draw 
near or below the ten hour rate -- same as the charging rate. In other 
words, the UPS should last 10 hours with a normal load.


Instead, most last about 15 minutes, and after a few cycles, the 
batteries are fried.


I've removed the internal batteries and replaced them with much larger 
VRLA batteries, often at less than APC or Tripp wants for "proper" 
replacements.


Be sure to use fuses and protect the terminals so you don't hit them 
with something metal accidentally.


VRLA batteries can safely be used indoors.  A big hint is that most of 
these are "UPS shippable."


73 -- Lynn


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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Richard Fjeld]

John,
I haven't read all the replies yet. I'm sure you will get a variety of 
responses, such as mine.


About 40 years ago when color TV's were more expensive, my neighborhood 
got a momentary hit in the power, and it came back with a voltage spike 
that took out too many TV's to count.  To prevent that from happening to 
my ham gear, I made a box with multiple outlets all switched by one 
relay that locks up through it's own contacts.  I have momentary push 
button switches to operate, or release, the relay.  Should the power 
take a momentary hit, the relay drops and opens the AC line to my 
equipment.  If the power comes back with a voltage spike, my equipment 
doesn't see it. (This may result in a discussion about MOV's)  I have a 
100 watt station.


I prefer to float a battery across my 12 volt line to allow me to 
properly shut down my equipment should the power go out.  I have had 
several qso's with people who use 12 V battery power exclusively. Some 
live where there is no power grid.


Also, I have a UPS that powers a lamp at my operating position so that I 
can see to power down my equipment.  I hope to eliminate this with a 
good 12 Volt LED lamp when I find one.


Dick, n0ce


On 7/11/2016 1:36 PM, stengrevics wrote:

To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).  Does anyone have any experience doing
this?  If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

My apologies if this has been previously discussed.  Please do provide a
link if it has.

73,

John
WA1EAZ






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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

[Jim - N4ST]

I live in a rural area and the last mile of power lines were put in just for
my house.
I had a dead tree limb fall and hook across the power lines and when it got
wet, it would arc and create horrendous electrical noise.
I called the power company several times to come out and remove the limb but
they didn't respond.
I finally sent them an email saying that I would take care of it myself,
because if I stood on the cab of my pickup I might be able to knock the limb
off with a long stick.
If that didn't work, I would shoot it off.
They came the next morning and removed the limb.

_ 
73,
Jim - N4ST


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of John
Stengrevics
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 17:44
To: Mike K8CN <mike.car...@unh.edu>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc
noise)

Thanks to all for your very helpful comments & suggestions.

John
WA1EAZ

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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Bob Nielsen]

I also live on an island and we too have several outages a year (which 
can last from seconds to days).  Most are caused by branches blown down 
by wind, hitting and breaking the power lines (it is slowly getting 
better as Puget Sound Energy has proactively been trimming trees before 
they break).  I have four UPS devices in various parts of my house. The 
shack and my home computers and DVRs are connected to 1000VA TrippLite 
UPSs I bought at Costco several years ago and these also protect against 
surges.  I don't try to operate an amp when the power goes out, but have 
run 100 watt radios barefoot for several minutes. The batteries in my 
systems probably need replacing and when I do that I will try to silence 
the darn beep that they make (I can tell when there is an outage without 
hearing that noise). I will also  look into setting up a 12V system like 
you described.


73,
Bob, N7XY

On 7/11/16 2:14 PM, Gerald Finn wrote:

In response to Stengrevics :  To deal with a power line noise problem, someone 
suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).? Does anyone have any experience doing
this?? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

For my Elecraft K3S/P3 I am using an Astron RS35M power supply which feeds a 
West Mountain DC-to-Go  with attached Radio Power Gate PG40S and RigRunner 
4007U.  My battery is a 79 amp hour AGM.  I live on an island and at stormy 
times of the year, we experience power losses and multiple short hits.   This 
combination has been quite satisfactory.
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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

[John Stengrevics]

Thanks to all for your very helpful comments & suggestions.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jul 11, 2016, at 5:18 PM, Mike K8CN  wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> Power line arc noise can happen anywhere, even in a semi-rural area like
> your neighborhood (I used to live in Acton MA).  There are many web
> resources for learning how to identify and track down power line arc
> sources.  Here are some things I've learned by hard experience.
> 
> A good, though not infallible, indication of a power line arc source for
> your noise is to check the bands during or shortly after a rain storm.  Most
> arc sources are quenched temporarily by rain if they're exposed to the
> elements. When I first began tracking down noise sources at my QTH several
> years ago, I found that keeping a log of baseline noise levels (using the
> S-meter indication with the K3 in AM mode, widest filter you have) on all
> bands versus time of day and weather conditions was helpful in establishing
> any correlation with precipitation or neighbors' activities.  I would also
> add comments about the qualitative audio signature of the noise ("buzz",
> "raspy", "intermittent buzz" - you get the idea).
> 
> Simple preliminary source location techniques (once you've eliminated
> anything in your own home or yard) include using the AM radio in your car on
> a careful drive around your neighborhood to find candidate sources. This is
> not particularly selective - you'll hear other interferers in addition to
> true arc sources, and you'll want to tune to an unoccupied AM channel - I
> use channels high in the AM broadcast band.
> 
> My preferred method once I've identified some candidate arc source sites is
> to use an inexpensive handheld VHF/UHF scanner with a rubber-duck antenna
> and a switchable attenuator.  You don't need a fancy lab-grade attenuator -
> I find that a home-made 6 dB or 20 dB fixed resistor attenuator (50 ohm,
> shielded box) is sufficient.  I tune the scanner to an open channel in the
> aircraft band (around 135 MHz; it automatically switches to AM detection in
> that band, which is necessary to do direction-finding based on signal
> strength - FM detection won't work), and walk around the suspect site. Turn
> off the squelch completely and set the audio gain at a fixed, comfortable
> listening level (I use open-ear headphones for safety as I walk on roads).
> 
> I hold the rubber-duck antenna in the horizontal orientation and sweep it in
> an arc to either side of my body.  The rubber-duck has a pattern null off
> the ends, and the reduction in audible noise is very evident if you're close
> to the arc source.  You can resolve the 180 degree direction ambiguity of
> the null by using your body as an additional shielding attenuator - the
> difference in audio levels is your clue as to which null direction is the
> true one.  You will find that you'll need to insert one of the fixed
> attenuators between the rubber-duck and the scanner antenna port if you're
> very close to the arc source - otherwise it will be difficult to perceive a
> null.  I've used this technique successfully to locate multiple arc sources
> in my own neighborhood over the past few years. The one drawback is that one
> cannot hear the arc noise at VHF if one is more than a couple hundred yards
> from the arc source unless you use a small handheld Yagi antenna.  It's easy
> to make a 3 element Yagi for VHF - there are several simple, inexpensive
> designs out there to be found.
> 
> As Jim, K9YC will likely point out, you may also be hearing switch-mode
> power converters that have a much different noise signature than arc noise. 
> If you can borrow a P3 panadapter from a nearby friend, it is an excellent
> tool for distinguishing types of noise.  There are many other RF noise
> emitters - look at the archives of the Elecraft forum for some examples -
> the list of offending devices is too long to include here.
> 
> One can, of course, purchase commercial DF'ing units that offer more
> features.  However, you may already have the basic DF'ing tools in hand, or
> you may borrow them from a local ham until you find that you have a
> recurring need for this set of tools.
> 
> It's likely that your local electric utility has a person trained in finding
> arc noise sources, but they love it when you can identify the specific pole
> on which you have found the likely source!
> 
> 73,
> Mike, K8CN
> Durham NH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-for-K3S-tp7619939p7619959.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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> 

Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S (power line arc noise)

[Mike K8CN]

John,

Power line arc noise can happen anywhere, even in a semi-rural area like
your neighborhood (I used to live in Acton MA).  There are many web
resources for learning how to identify and track down power line arc
sources.  Here are some things I've learned by hard experience.

A good, though not infallible, indication of a power line arc source for
your noise is to check the bands during or shortly after a rain storm.  Most
arc sources are quenched temporarily by rain if they're exposed to the
elements. When I first began tracking down noise sources at my QTH several
years ago, I found that keeping a log of baseline noise levels (using the
S-meter indication with the K3 in AM mode, widest filter you have) on all
bands versus time of day and weather conditions was helpful in establishing
any correlation with precipitation or neighbors' activities.  I would also
add comments about the qualitative audio signature of the noise ("buzz",
"raspy", "intermittent buzz" - you get the idea).

Simple preliminary source location techniques (once you've eliminated
anything in your own home or yard) include using the AM radio in your car on
a careful drive around your neighborhood to find candidate sources. This is
not particularly selective - you'll hear other interferers in addition to
true arc sources, and you'll want to tune to an unoccupied AM channel - I
use channels high in the AM broadcast band.

My preferred method once I've identified some candidate arc source sites is
to use an inexpensive handheld VHF/UHF scanner with a rubber-duck antenna
and a switchable attenuator.  You don't need a fancy lab-grade attenuator -
I find that a home-made 6 dB or 20 dB fixed resistor attenuator (50 ohm,
shielded box) is sufficient.  I tune the scanner to an open channel in the
aircraft band (around 135 MHz; it automatically switches to AM detection in
that band, which is necessary to do direction-finding based on signal
strength - FM detection won't work), and walk around the suspect site. Turn
off the squelch completely and set the audio gain at a fixed, comfortable
listening level (I use open-ear headphones for safety as I walk on roads).

I hold the rubber-duck antenna in the horizontal orientation and sweep it in
an arc to either side of my body.  The rubber-duck has a pattern null off
the ends, and the reduction in audible noise is very evident if you're close
to the arc source.  You can resolve the 180 degree direction ambiguity of
the null by using your body as an additional shielding attenuator - the
difference in audio levels is your clue as to which null direction is the
true one.  You will find that you'll need to insert one of the fixed
attenuators between the rubber-duck and the scanner antenna port if you're
very close to the arc source - otherwise it will be difficult to perceive a
null.  I've used this technique successfully to locate multiple arc sources
in my own neighborhood over the past few years. The one drawback is that one
cannot hear the arc noise at VHF if one is more than a couple hundred yards
from the arc source unless you use a small handheld Yagi antenna.  It's easy
to make a 3 element Yagi for VHF - there are several simple, inexpensive
designs out there to be found.

As Jim, K9YC will likely point out, you may also be hearing switch-mode
power converters that have a much different noise signature than arc noise. 
If you can borrow a P3 panadapter from a nearby friend, it is an excellent
tool for distinguishing types of noise.  There are many other RF noise
emitters - look at the archives of the Elecraft forum for some examples -
the list of offending devices is too long to include here.

One can, of course, purchase commercial DF'ing units that offer more
features.  However, you may already have the basic DF'ing tools in hand, or
you may borrow them from a local ham until you find that you have a
recurring need for this set of tools.

It's likely that your local electric utility has a person trained in finding
arc noise sources, but they love it when you can identify the specific pole
on which you have found the likely source!

73,
Mike, K8CN
Durham NH







--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-for-K3S-tp7619939p7619959.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Gerald Finn]

In response to Stengrevics :  To deal with a power line noise problem, someone 
suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).? Does anyone have any experience doing
this?? If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

For my Elecraft K3S/P3 I am using an Astron RS35M power supply which feeds a 
West Mountain DC-to-Go  with attached Radio Power Gate PG40S and RigRunner 
4007U.  My battery is a 79 amp hour AGM.  I live on an island and at stormy 
times of the year, we experience power losses and multiple short hits.   This 
combination has been quite satisfactory.
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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Barry LaZar]

John,
You can use an UPS for a protracted period. My whole shack is 
buffered on the one cheap UPS I bought at Staples. I suspect that the 
size of the battery will only allow for about 10-15 minutes of operating 
after I lose power. But, it's on continuously.


From your description of your situation I would guess there are 
just a few possibilities, arcing from a power line that is within radio 
line of sight to your antenna, someone may have an electric fence to 
control animals, a compressor/air handler controler. or one of your 
neighbors is doing some arc welding. You can eliminate atmospheric noise 
if it is steady and doesn't vary like  lightning crashes; this time of 
the year there is a lot of atmospheric noise, but it bounces around in 
amplitude.


If you have a 2 meter rig that can tune down in the aircraft 
frequencies, tune it to a dead spot between 113-136 MHz. You will be in 
AM mode. Turn off the squelch and ride around and see if you can find 
the source of some noise. It could be a few miles away from your antenna 
depending on how high your antenna is.


73,
Barry
K3NDM



-- Original Message --
From: "John Stengrevics" <jstengrev...@comcast.net>
To: j...@audiosystemsgroup.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 7/11/2016 3:38:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S


Thanks to all for the comments.

Not being familiar with these things, I thought the UPS could be use 
for a protracted period of time.


Jim - I’ve been through the exercise of turning off every breaker in 
the house except the one that supplies power to the shack.  I then 
unplugged everything in the shack except the K3S and rotor control box 
and turned off the lights.  I still had the noise.


Bonding didn’t do anything - I only have the K3S, speaker and a rotor 
control box.


I’ve got ferrites out the gazoo!

I live in an area with 2-acre zoning and no commercial establishment 
wishing a couple of miles.


So, I’m at a loss.  Maybe atmospheric noise?

John
WA1EAZ


 On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Jim Brown <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com> 
wrote:


 On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:

 To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
 uninterruptible power supply (UPS).



 Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by 
a defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by 
power wiring close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is 
like any other RF signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive 
it. It is VERY unlikely to be conducted into our equipment via our own 
power wiring.


 Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.

 Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much 
of the noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment 
of all sorts.


 Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[John Stengrevics]

Thanks to all for the comments.

Not being familiar with these things, I thought the UPS could be use for a 
protracted period of time.

Jim - I’ve been through the exercise of turning off every breaker in the house 
except the one that supplies power to the shack.  I then unplugged everything 
in the shack except the K3S and rotor control box and turned off the lights.  I 
still had the noise.

Bonding didn’t do anything - I only have the K3S, speaker and a rotor control 
box. 

I’ve got ferrites out the gazoo!

I live in an area with 2-acre zoning and no commercial establishment wishing a 
couple of miles.

So, I’m at a loss.  Maybe atmospheric noise?

John
WA1EAZ


> On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:
>> To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
>> uninterruptible power supply (UPS).
> 
> 
> Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by a 
> defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by power wiring 
> close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is like any other RF 
> signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive it. It is VERY unlikely to 
> be conducted into our equipment via our own power wiring.
> 
> Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.
> 
> Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much of the 
> noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment of all sorts.
> 
> Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Barry LaZar]

John,
You can use any UPS that will protect your computer. I got mine at  
Stables. It was the least expensive that they had on sale. They're all 
pretty much the same, a battery, battery charger and a 12 volt to 117 AC 
inverter. Some do have computer interfaces for protecting servers, but 
you really don't need that feature. The size of the battery determines 
how long you can stay up without power. You only need enough power for a 
few minutes as you are using the battery as a buffer for noise and 
voltage spikes from lightning strikes and motors turning on and off.


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "stengrevics" <jstengrev...@comcast.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 7/11/2016 2:36:33 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S


To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).  Does anyone have any experience 
doing
this?  If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the 
K3S?


My apologies if this has been previously discussed.  Please do provide 
a

link if it has.

73,

John
WA1EAZ



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-for-K3S-tp7619939.html

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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,7/11/2016 11:36 AM, stengrevics wrote:

To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).



Bad idea, for several reasons. First, power line noise is created by a 
defective component in the power system arcing, and radiated by power 
wiring close to the where the arc occurs. This radiated noise is like 
any other RF signal -- it propagates, and our antennas receive it. It is 
VERY unlikely to be conducted into our equipment via our own power wiring.


Second, UPS units are often noise sources themselves.

Third, how do you know that what you hear is power line noise? Much of 
the noise we hear in our radios is created by electronic equipment of 
all sorts.


Study http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[Bayard Coolidge, N1HO via Elecraft]

The "UPS" for my K3 consists of an Astron RS35 linear powersupply driving a 
West Mountain Radio Super PWRgate PG40Sto a 105Ah AGM SLA battery. Power to the 
K3 comes from aWMR RigRunner 4012 that's plugged into the PG40S. Very quiet,and 
can be deployed fairly quickly.
73 de N1HO

  Stengrevics wrote:
   
To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).  Does anyone have any experience doing
this?  If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

  
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[Elecraft] Uninterruptible Power Supply for K3S

[stengrevics]

To deal with a power line noise problem, someone suggested I try an
uninterruptible power supply (UPS).  Does anyone have any experience doing
this?  If so, what UPS specifications are appropriate to handle the K3S?

My apologies if this has been previously discussed.  Please do provide a
link if it has.

73,

John
WA1EAZ



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