[Emc-users] W axis working! One problem remains, "residual" current to the motor.

[Igor Chudov]

I have the W axis working.

http://www.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/34-Adding-Servo-Control-to-Knee/

When commanded, the W axis moves up and down, roughly as instructed,
according to my G0 W... commands.

It is not super precise or well tuned, yet, but really not so bad and
compares favorably to cranking the knee handle. I will try to evaluate
backlash and such, when I get more time to tune this system.

For those too lazy to look at pictures, the W axis is a 1,000+ chunk of
metal, moved up and down by a 15:1 DC gearmotor, that turns a shaft that, in
turn, turns a ACME nut on the knee screw. There is a pneumatic assist on the
knee, which helps a lot.

There is one problem, however: after the motion stops, ppmc.0.DAC.3 does not
go down to zero, and instead stays high, while the system is not moving. I
explain this by remaining under power to move "one more hair distance"
against friction, nothing is moving, and nothing is there to decrease the
output.

If it decreases a little bit, no disaster should happen, the knee will not
drop, the system is self braking etc.

Instead, current is provided to the motor, the not enough to move the rotor,
but enough to heat it up too much.

So. How would I somehow configure EMC to stop providing any current to "W",
when not really moving it?

i
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Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Igor Chudov]

Chris, and Stuart, it was EXACTLY as you said!

Thanks!

i

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Chris Radek  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:52:15PM -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> > I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes.
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_config.html#sub:[TRAJ]-section
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Chris Radek]

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:52:15PM -0600, Igor Chudov wrote:
> I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes.

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_config.html#sub:[TRAJ]-section

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Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Stuart Stevenson]

I think you need to set it to nine. Try it and see.

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Igor Chudov  wrote:

> I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes.
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Stuart Stevenson 
> wrote:
>
> > look at your .ini file
> >
> > in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9?
> > the W axis is the ninth axis
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov  wrote:
> >
> > > I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message
> > > "waiting for s. axis" repeated several times.
> > >
> > > What does it mean?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Igor Chudov]

I set AXES=5. Should I say 9? I only have 5 axes.

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Stuart Stevenson  wrote:

> look at your .ini file
>
> in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9?
> the W axis is the ninth axis
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov  wrote:
>
> > I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message
> > "waiting for s. axis" repeated several times.
> >
> > What does it mean?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Stuart Stevenson]

look at your .ini file

in the TRAJ section does the AXES = 5 or AXES = 9?
the W axis is the ninth axis

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Igor Chudov  wrote:

> I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message
> "waiting for s. axis" repeated several times.
>
> What does it mean?
>
> thanks
>
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[Emc-users] waiting for s. axis

[Igor Chudov]

I am adding 5th axis (W) to my mill's configuration and I get a message
"waiting for s. axis" repeated several times.

What does it mean?

thanks
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Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:42 PM, gene heskett  wrote:

> Greets all;
>
> I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6"
> jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table.  The tilted
> it to 44 degrees, one less than the OEM grind.  Then mounted a dremel
> diamond disk in the mill and lowered it till it was about touching, turned
> the spindle on & started sweeping.
>

You're not supposed to use diamond cutting/abrasive tools for cutting
steel---if the interface temperature is allowed to rise anywhere near
transition points (i.e. you have sparks) carbon dissolves into iron, i.e.
diamonds lose their cutting power really quickly. I have read of people
dulling their diamond wheels in just few aggressive hot passes.

I think it's possible to defeat that by aggressive cooling, but the general
recommendation was against trying. Why not use a grinding wheel?
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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Frank Tkalcevic]

> Sercos 3 was one example of the use of ethernet for real time control.
> 
> Another example is ethernet i/p. Again it uses standard ethernet
technology
> and allows the use of switches between the host and slave. It all comes
> down to timing. AB claims they do +/- 100 uS without modified hardware.
> With IEEE 1588 compliant hardware they can get it down much lower.  It all
> comes down to the application and what is required.
> 
> Refer to ODVA's CIP Motion and CIP Sync for more information.
> 
> I use AB PLC's and Bosch Rexroth drives   using ethernet I/P communication
> on a daily basis without 1588 hardware and have found it to offer
exceptional
> performance.
> 
> My comments were relating to someone indicating that ethernet could not
> be used in a real-time application.


RT-Net is a good candidate for an open source implementation.
(http://www.rtnet.org/)

RT-Net provides drivers for a collection of network cards that work under a
real time kernel (RTAI).  In its raw form, it can just be used to schedule
delivery of Ethernet packets.  You implement the protocol.

To support real time communications, there are 3 specifications defined -
rtmac, which defines the frame format, rtcfg, which is used by the master to
find, and configure the slaves, and tdma (time division multiple access)
which slices the bandwidth of the line into packets, then these packets
sliced into slots.  It also does clock synchronisation.

The rtnet protocols can coexist with other Ethernet protocols on the line at
the same time, but that seems a bit risky in a real time environment.

There are some issues with it - the network card drivers seem to require a
dedicated IRQ, so it can be hard to set up.  The rtnet rtai software wants
to control the rtai internal clock, so it needs to be made to play nicely
with emc.

It is open source, so theoretically a slave could be built on any
microcontroller powerful enough to run an embedded linux, but it would still
a realtime kernel and network drivers - I was looking and writing a
dedicated slave firmware for the microcontroller.


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Re: [Emc-users] Possible eBay bargain.

[Kirk Wallace]

On Mon, 2011-02-28 at 11:06 +, andy pugh wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denford-quick-change-milling-machine-spindle-30-int-/110655017690?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19c38d92da#ht_499wt_1159
> 
> I think this might be slightly miss-described.
> 
> I think it is a QC30 spindle (without the bearings)
> 

I concur, if the transition in the middle of the shaft is threaded, my
guess is it is a spindle shaft. It looks to be in good shape, but I
don't know that I would use Quick-Change in a new design.
-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] PATA/IDE port as a parallel port

[gene heskett]

On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:52:59 am fi did opine:

> On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 08:48 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 15:46 +0200, fi wrote:
> > ... snip
> > 
> > > Is hal_parport.c the proper file to modify for 16 bit I/O over PATA
> > > ports ?
> > > Are other files to be modified ?
> > 
> > ... snip
> > 
> > >From my study of the parallel port drivers, 90% of the code is for
> > 
> > setting up the structs for managing the setup strings, and sharing
> > multiple ports. When that is out of the way, it comes down to a simple
> > outb or inb to a few registers. I suspect the PATA interface might be
> > the same except that 90% of the code will be PATA specific, so the
> > parport code may not be helpful.
> > 
> > If one is going to go through the effort of a new design, I would vote
> > for pursuing a PLX based PCI or PCI-X interface like this one:
> > http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/pci1_15_02_sch_wiki.pdf
> > (from this page:
> > http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?AVR )
> > 
> > (It seems to me, the old ISA slots would be perfect for real-time
> > interfacing.)
> > 
> > I am guessing here, but the only "active" part of the parallel port
> > driver is in/outb which lives well with real-time. This may not be the
> > case with PATA or PCI. Study of the PCI FPGA examples may shed light
> > on this.
> > 
> > On the other hand, if your time is money, just buying an existing PCI
> > or PCI-X motion card would be cheaper.
> 
> Hi
> Regarding obsolescence, there are PCI/PCI-EXPRESS to IDE PATA adapters
> which may already work
> with pci_8255.c driver and 8255 boards but what I would love to get is
> 16 bits wide I/O , so for now I'm looking at hal_skeleton.c and
> hal_parport.c
> 
> OTOH,
> I used an internal PATA HDD Rack for some testing with _normal_ kernel.
> I've played with some 573 574 and 245 , with 245(not being a latch)
> were fast pulses which maybe are useful for fast steps in step/dir
> configurations.
> Next weekend I'll try a PCI to IDE adapter .
> 
> 
> OT 1: is possible to make timing of step pulse to be half of desired
> moving time like 1ms pulse for a 2 ms move or 3s pulse for 6s move?
> Instead of many short pulses to give just a single pulse with half the
> timing ?
> EMC's stepgen knows before writing the pulse how long a move will take
> so it will be easy for a modified step/dir servo to do optimized moves.
> 
> OT 2:
> I have bad latency PC's so here:
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
> it says:
> "Numbers over 1 millisecond (1,000,000 nanoseconds) mean the PC is not a
> good candidate for EMC, regardless of whether you use software stepping
> or not."
> 
Where we get in trouble with huge latencies is that in particular with 
steppers, when a huge lag hits, the motor which was stepping merrily along 
at 150 rpm, simply cannot come to a stop during the time the step signal 
was expected, and then resume that 150 rpm rate when the steps restart.  
Extremely high voltages and surge currents from the driver may help, but 
generally speaking it will likely overshoot a step or 4 getting stopped, 
losing its position reference, and will stall completely on the restart as 
it cannot accelerate back to that 150 rpm in one step.

>From a servo point of view, where the machine reads the encoders and 
evaluates the present position and issues corrective settings to the 
servos, which will blindly follow merrily along until the next such update, 
a huge latency could very well cause an overshoot.  Carving PCB's, with 
traces 10 mills wide, aren't going to be 'pretty' although they may work 
without hand patching if its not too bad.

OTOH, its not that hard to find hardware whose latency isn't that bad, and 
frankly the huge majority of that seems to be in the video drivers.  I am 
absolutely forced to use the vesa driver regardless of the card installed 
in my milling machines box as its latency will be 50 times worse if I let 
it load the linux ati/radeon drivers.  Ditto for when it had an nvidia card 
in it, even the linux nv driver was a latency disaster, and the nvidia 
driver itself, while it made good gfx using firefox etc, had 300+ 
millisecond latencies.

The vesa driver has been the salvation driver for me.  However, that older 
Mach-Speed mobo also has a built in video, using shared memory, and I think 
most of the people here have found the earlier implementations of onboard 
video have had to disable that, and waste a pci slot for an aftermarket 
card just to get rid of the shared memory problems.

However, from reading between the lines on this list, the Intel DM510 
boards are capable of working well with their onboard video.  And the 
prices for new construction using that board are quite reasonable.

> From a hobby point of view I don't care how much time it takes to mill a
> good PCB as long as it is good ; so according to the statement above
> I can't use  EMC2 ?
> 
I would not make that blanket statement.  Good machines for EMC can o

Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

[gene heskett]

On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:27:16 am andy pugh did opine:

> On 27 February 2011 23:42, gene heskett  wrote:
> > I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6"
> > jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table.
> 
> Have you considered making your own blades? Either from HSS (parting
> tool blanks?) or possibly even from gauge plate? O1 tool steel is
> inexpensive and seems to work perfectly well for hand tools.
> 
> I am unconvinced by carbide for wide planers, especially with tough
> woods like knotty oak. There is a tendency for the blades to crack,
> and then they are useless.
> 
> My dad's 6" jointer has planed something like 500 cubic feet of oak to
> make a set of 10 panelled doors, a panelled partition, two staircases
> and a balcony with only one set of HSS blades. We do have a universal
> grinder (with coolant and a 12" pink wheel) for sharpening though.
> (Thinking about it, it has also helped convert a couple of 8" x 8"
> pitch-pine joists into 8 vertically sliding sash window frames and a
> couple of old mahogany packing cases into garage doors too)
> 
> I think that carbide for wood only makes sense in the context of
> disposable cutters. If you can re-grind then HSS blades suffer far
> fewer catastrophic failures.

Chuckle, sounds like my 13" craftsman planer.  I hauled it to NY a couple 
years ago and attacked a barn full of dirty (It had been sawed for several 
years & spent some of that time out in the weather) cherry Rusty wanted to 
use for Wainscoating in the basement family room of the new house they had 
built. One set of fairly sharp blades did several ton of that over about a 
4 day period, but I did stick Rusty with the cost of a set, about $59 IIRC.  
Now they are always out of stock, so while the planer is a well built 
planer, its the last tool like that I will ever buy from snears & 
takeitback.  I built a sharpening jig to hold those over a flat faced rouge 
stone that runs wet at about 400 rpm, sweet.  You can't believe what that 
can do for a dull hand plane blade!

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

In 1869 the waffle iron was invented for people who had wrinkled waffles.

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Stephen Wille Padnos]

Mark Wendt wrote:
> On 02/28/2011 08:56 AM, Moses McKnight wrote:
>
>>> [snip]
>> Sounds like standard ethernet frames.  I would imagine they would use
>> standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame
>>
>> Moses
>>  
> Almost, except that standard Ethernet frames are typically of
> non-variable length, adjustable only by changing the MTU, and are
> "padded" to maintain the frame length being used.  The Sercos3 seemingly
> allows variable length frames.
>
This isn't how it works.

There is a minimum frame size (512 bits), and a maximum transfer unit 
(usually 1500 bytes or so, sometimes up to 9000 bytes on a gigabit line 
with "jumbo frame" support).  As long as they're between those limits, 
the packets can be any size.


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Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

[gene heskett]

On Monday, February 28, 2011 09:07:45 am Glenn Edwards did opine:

> Gene,
> 
> I think it likely the blades you have were not hardened throughout from
> the factory.  Only the cutting edge was induction hardened and you
> probably removed the heat-treated edge with the first or second
> re-sharpening. However, to see what you have, why don't you put the
> back-side of the blade against a grinding wheel and see what kind of
> sparklers you get.  Any old machinist book will have pictures showing
> the type of sparks that come from higher carbon steel.
> 
> Glenn
> 
I doubt that I have removed more that .025" from the edges of the blades, 
total.  They're just crap.

In any event, I first found them at ereplacementy.parts.com but then found 
Amanda blades at toolstoday.com.  Wuz gonna get the edged ones but the 
reviews said they weren't sharp, although once sharpened they were great.  
Steel T1 18% tungsten blades (highly rated) were $34 a 4 pack, so I bought 
3=12 blades for a bit less, and now I'm waiting the human show up for work 
to cancel the other order.  I still like the idea of carbide, and I could 
probably tune up the carbide ones in the jig I made yesterday, but go back 
to the diamond wheel.  I have tuned up carbide milling tools with those 
diamond wheels provided its all off the bottom to restore them.

And when I get a round tuit, I need to do another 1/4", seems emc miss-
configured the .hal file and ran my spindle backwards while carving some 
cast iron the other day.  Since I had it running wide open, I didn't notice 
anything but what seemed like excessive noise.  Duh.  Fixed now of course.  
But the bit is badly chipped.

-- 
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"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
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The image of Providing Nourishment.
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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/28/2011 08:56 AM, Moses McKnight wrote:
>> Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each "host" requires at
>> least a two-port network interace.  That's how they implement either the
>> "Line", "Ring" or other network topology.  Each "host" has to process
>> the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology.
>>
>> The "Ring" topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels
>> are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second
>> channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down.
>>
>> For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue
>> with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to
>> the slave boxes.  With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine
>> multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling
>> different machines.  For a single control PC sending data to a single
>> control box, this shouldn't really be an issue.
>>
>> Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or
>> as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in
>> length.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Sounds like standard ethernet frames.  I would imagine they would use
> standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame
>
> Moses

Almost, except that standard Ethernet frames are typically of 
non-variable length, adjustable only by changing the MTU, and are 
"padded" to maintain the frame length being used.  The Sercos3 seemingly 
allows variable length frames.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Jean-Paul Moniz]

Sercos 3 was one example of the use of ethernet for real time control.

Another example is ethernet i/p. Again it uses standard ethernet technology and 
allows the use of switches between the host and slave. It all comes down to 
timing. AB claims they do +/- 100 uS without modified hardware. With IEEE 1588 
compliant hardware they can get it down much lower.  It all comes down to the 
application and what is required.

Refer to ODVA's CIP Motion and CIP Sync for more information. 

I use AB PLC's and Bosch Rexroth drives   using ethernet I/P communication on a 
daily basis without 1588 hardware and have found it to offer exceptional 
performance. 

My comments were relating to someone indicating that ethernet could not be used 
in a real-time application.

Thanks
Jp

Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Mark Wendt 
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:37:19 
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Reply-To: mark.we...@nrl.navy.mil, "Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)"

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote:
> Siemens DriveCliq works the same way.   Everything is point to point.
> No external hubs or switches.
> I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks.
> The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two
> for encoder connections.
> I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet
> jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick.
>
> Dave

Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each "host" requires at 
least a two-port network interace.  That's how they implement either the 
"Line", "Ring" or other network topology.  Each "host" has to process 
the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology.

The "Ring" topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels 
are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second 
channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down.

For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue 
with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to 
the slave boxes.  With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine 
multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling 
different machines.  For a single control PC sending data to a single 
control box, this shouldn't really be an issue.

Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or 
as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in 
length.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Moses McKnight]

On 02/28/2011 07:37 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote:
>> Siemens DriveCliq works the same way.   Everything is point to point.
>> No external hubs or switches.
>> I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks.
>> The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two
>> for encoder connections.
>> I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet
>> jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick.
>>
>> Dave
>
> Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each "host" requires at
> least a two-port network interace.  That's how they implement either the
> "Line", "Ring" or other network topology.  Each "host" has to process
> the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology.
>
> The "Ring" topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels
> are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second
> channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down.
>
> For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue
> with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to
> the slave boxes.  With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine
> multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling
> different machines.  For a single control PC sending data to a single
> control box, this shouldn't really be an issue.
>
> Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or
> as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in
> length.
>
> Mark

Sounds like standard ethernet frames.  I would imagine they would use 
standard frames because ethernet hardware is expecting that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame

Moses

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/28/2011 08:19 AM, Dave wrote:
> Siemens DriveCliq works the same way.   Everything is point to point.
> No external hubs or switches.
> I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks.
> The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two
> for encoder connections.
> I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet
> jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick.
>
> Dave

Looking again at the Sercos3 implementation, each "host" requires at 
least a two-port network interace.  That's how they implement either the 
"Line", "Ring" or other network topology.  Each "host" has to process 
the data and then pass it on to the next host in a host 2+n topology.

The "Ring" topology looks to be the most efficient, since two channels 
are being used to move the data around the circuit, and the second 
channel offers a bit of redundancy of the primary channel goes down.

For environments that have multiple machines, this could be an issue 
with multiple, long network cables going from the master controller to 
the slave boxes.  With that in mind though, it's kind of hard to imagine 
multiple instances of EMC2 running on one controller PC controlling 
different machines.  For a single control PC sending data to a single 
control box, this shouldn't really be an issue.

Interesting also how the protocol utilizes multiple length packets (or 
as they call them, Telegrams), anywhere from 84 bytes to 1538 bytes in 
length.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Dave]

Siemens DriveCliq works the same way.   Everything is point to point.  
No external hubs or switches.
I think the controller I was using recently had 6 or 8 Ethernet jacks.  
The drive module had 3, one for the connection to the controller and two 
for encoder connections.
I think the line module (Ac to DC smart power supply) had 3 Ethernet 
jacks. Hooking everything up was very quick.

Dave

On 2/28/2011 5:07 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> On 02/27/2011 11:42 AM, Jean-Paul Moniz wrote:
>
>> Ethernet medium can be in  realtime take a look at sercos3 for example.
>>
>> It uses standard ethernet hardware.
>> Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
>>  
> According to the wiki, you can't use standard ethernet hardware:
>
> " SERCOS III is designed in such a way that no additional network
> infrastructure (standard Ethernet switches, Hubs, etc.) is required to
> operate.
>
> In fact, no additional standard Ethernet (non-SERCOS III capable)
> components may be placed within a SERCOS III network, as their presence
> will
>
> adversely affect the timing and synchronization of the network."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERCOS_III
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] PATA/IDE port as a parallel port

[fi]

On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 08:48 -0800, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-02-25 at 15:46 +0200, fi wrote:
> ... snip
> > Is hal_parport.c the proper file to modify for 16 bit I/O over PATA
> > ports ? 
> > Are other files to be modified ?
> ... snip
> 
> >From my study of the parallel port drivers, 90% of the code is for
> setting up the structs for managing the setup strings, and sharing
> multiple ports. When that is out of the way, it comes down to a simple
> outb or inb to a few registers. I suspect the PATA interface might be
> the same except that 90% of the code will be PATA specific, so the
> parport code may not be helpful.
> 
> If one is going to go through the effort of a new design, I would vote
> for pursuing a PLX based PCI or PCI-X interface like this one:
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/pci1_15_02_sch_wiki.pdf 
> (from this page:
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?AVR )
> 
> (It seems to me, the old ISA slots would be perfect for real-time
> interfacing.)
> 
> I am guessing here, but the only "active" part of the parallel port
> driver is in/outb which lives well with real-time. This may not be the
> case with PATA or PCI. Study of the PCI FPGA examples may shed light on
> this. 
> 
> On the other hand, if your time is money, just buying an existing PCI or
> PCI-X motion card would be cheaper.

Hi
Regarding obsolescence, there are PCI/PCI-EXPRESS to IDE PATA adapters
which may already work
with pci_8255.c driver and 8255 boards but what I would love to get is
16 bits wide I/O , so for now I'm looking at hal_skeleton.c and
hal_parport.c

OTOH,
I used an internal PATA HDD Rack for some testing with _normal_ kernel.
I've played with some 573 574 and 245 , with 245(not being a latch)
were fast pulses which maybe are useful for fast steps in step/dir
configurations.
Next weekend I'll try a PCI to IDE adapter .


OT 1: is possible to make timing of step pulse to be half of desired
moving time like 1ms pulse for a 2 ms move or 3s pulse for 6s move?
Instead of many short pulses to give just a single pulse with half the 
timing ?
EMC's stepgen knows before writing the pulse how long a move will take
so it will be easy for a modified step/dir servo to do optimized moves.

OT 2:
I have bad latency PC's so here:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
it says:
"Numbers over 1 millisecond (1,000,000 nanoseconds) mean the PC is not a
good candidate for EMC, regardless of whether you use software stepping
or not."

>From a hobby point of view I don't care how much time it takes to mill a
good PCB as long as it is good ; so according to the statement above
I can't use  EMC2 ?

Sorry for my english
Bye.
Florin




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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[andy pugh]

On 28 February 2011 10:19, Mark Wendt  wrote:

>        It would be nice if there were some other port available that would
> work in real time, and deliver the throughput and versatility we need as
> good or better than the parallel port.

There is a realtime USB extension for RTAI:
https://www.rtai.org/RTAICONTRIB/

However, it does not compile with the current kernel version due to a
number of kernel macro changes, and I have a feeling that the version
at that link has _never_ compiled as there seems to be some mismatch
between the structs in the headers and some of the functions that use
them,

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[Emc-users] Possible eBay bargain.

[andy pugh]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denford-quick-change-milling-machine-spindle-30-int-/110655017690?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19c38d92da#ht_499wt_1159

I think this might be slightly miss-described.

I think it is a QC30 spindle (without the bearings)

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Joachim Franek]

On Monday 28 February 2011 10:31:32 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> And our RTAI environment probably wouldn't help much toward RT sending
> of UDP packest, because we'd still be using the linux kernel (non-RT) to
> push them out.

Thats  exactly my question: how to send/receive udp packets
on a (additional) rt-eth interface? Has someone done something
allready? 
I have here on my destop 3 variants:
- FPGA (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?FPGA)
- RDK-BLDC from LM
- EVK1100
which receive and answer udp packets. So I can test this.
(And I expext Intel is not telling us ethernet is deprecated.)
Do not understand my hardware as a decision.
My preference is to select one microprocessor
to get something working in short time. And if the
comunity decides to go with hardware xy, I buy this.
I think there are more people familiar with programming
micros compared to the number familiar with VHDL.

I think we need some structure for the udp packet!
And it is also possible to use this protocoll
over the parallel port with micros or FPGA's.

Joachim

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/27/2011 04:22 PM, Peter Blodow wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I work on a daily basis with Ethernet as a system and network
>> administrator.
>>
>> We're talking about a Real Time Ethernet, with a dedicated master and
>> slave network interface, which should preclude any worry of collisions
>> on a duplex connection between the two.  Modern systems with full duplex
>> connections no longer really rely on CSMA/CD.  As defined in 802.3,
>> that's just one of the protocols that have been used, not the only way.
>>
>> The reason we're talking about Ethernet as one of the possibilities for
>> communications between the computer and the controller is the
>> possibility of the ultimate demise of the parallel port, and the
>> difficulties of real time communications on the USB bus.
>>
>> So, Real Time Ethernet ain't quite your Granddaddy's TCP/IP or USB
>> protocol.
> Well, Mark, my granddaddy died in 1960. Concerning Ethernet, I was
> thinking of the times when I worked close to the IEEE 802 group way back
> when Siemens participated in technical innovation...
>
> It's just that I was so happy that PC's, being cheaply available and
> relatively easy to write programs for, have such a simple port as the
> parallel is. Well, I either will have to get used to the idea of writing
> special programs for dedicated processors again or else??
>
> Whenever I had the impression to have cought up on technological
> development, it was running away again...
>
>
> Peter Blodow

Peter,

The "Granddaddy's TCP/IP" was just a figure of speech.  We use it a 
bunch over here when we talk about "new and improved" things.  It was 
first coined in the US auto industry.  I hope I haven't given you the 
impression I dislike the use of the parallel port for what we are doing 
with it, far from it.  This is just a look ahead, to get some ideas for 
when the parallel port is no longer supported in the industry.

It would be nice if there were some other port available that would 
work in real time, and deliver the throughput and versatility we need as 
good or better than the parallel port.

Problem with PC's you buy off the shelf, they really aren't designed 
with industrial use or motion control in mind.  They're for Sally to 
read her email, and play around on Facebook, or the gamers, or the 
Word/Excel/Powerpoint crowd.  We make the best with what we have, but we 
also need to look to the future when certain features we've become used 
to having around are no longer there.

I've got a bunch of old parallel port cables laying around with 
Centronix connectors at one end.  Who knew they'd stop supplying 
interfaces that matched up with those cable ends?

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/27/2011 03:00 PM, Frank Tkalcevic wrote:

>> Hmmm, wonder if that board could be programmed to be a real time
>> ethernet slave?
>
> The board doesn't have any of the Ethernet hardware - RJ45 connector or PHY
> chip.  The MAC they speak of is built into the chip.
>
> Here's a better source of Ethernet+microcontroller breakout boards...
>
> http://www.propox.com/products/t_245.html?lang=en
>
> That one is basically the same with the Ethernet hardware.  They have other
> models with faster microcontrollers.
>
> I've been looking at this for a rt-net implementation.  I built a demo slave
> using an Atmel NGW100.  My software was sloppy and could only get about
> 200Hz update rate.  The real problem was doing any interfacing.  I want to
> basic PWM out, and encoder count in, plus homing and some IOs.  My plan is
> to use a microcontroller to do the Ethernet bits, then use an FPGA with a
> memory mapped interface to do the encoder reading and PWM generation.  Just
> need some time to learn FPGA design, then implement it.

You're right, I didn't notice that when I glanced at the board.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Mark Wendt]

On 02/27/2011 11:42 AM, Jean-Paul Moniz wrote:
> Ethernet medium can be in  realtime take a look at sercos3 for example.
>
> It uses standard ethernet hardware.
> Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry

According to the wiki, you can't use standard ethernet hardware:

" SERCOS III is designed in such a way that no additional network 
infrastructure (standard Ethernet switches, Hubs, etc.) is required to 
operate.

In fact, no additional standard Ethernet (non-SERCOS III capable) 
components may be placed within a SERCOS III network, as their presence 
will

adversely affect the timing and synchronization of the network."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERCOS_III

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Erik Christiansen]

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 09:12:50AM +0100, Joachim Franek wrote:
> Have also a look to the bottom of the 
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?AVR
> page: it is about AVR32 for motor control
> (with eclipse based ide for linux).

Seeing that they are also supported by the gnu toolchain, and the UC3
devices have useful on-chip peripherals, I'd consider these 32 bit chips
a viable alternative to ARM, for our uses.

> I also prefer udp packets. Maybe we are
> able to concentrate our forced and avoid
> 12 or more variants of udp packets. Is there
> some code available on the emc side?

That would be inbuilt in the kernel, I'd expect. And in
/boot/config-2.6.24-16-rtai, I see:

CONFIG_NET_ETHERNET=y

So it looks like a compile-time option, and the EMC2 application just
uses that.

And our RTAI environment probably wouldn't help much toward RT sending
of UDP packest, because we'd still be using the linux kernel (non-RT) to
push them out.

But there's likely to be various open-source UDP implementations around.

> BTW: what do you think about PTP (IEEE 1588)?

I'd not previously seen that. However, high timing precision (or even
resolution) doesn't necessarily indicate high throughput, or even
frequent transmissions, I think.

Hold on a moment ... Not using parport myself, it's only belatedly
occurred to me: why not just drop in a PCI parport card?
(And skip all this fun serial stuff? :-)

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

[andy pugh]

On 27 February 2011 23:42, gene heskett  wrote:

> I made up a wooden jig to mount the dull blades from my Delta JT360 6"
> jointer into the tiltable vice on may milling machines table.

Have you considered making your own blades? Either from HSS (parting
tool blanks?) or possibly even from gauge plate? O1 tool steel is
inexpensive and seems to work perfectly well for hand tools.

I am unconvinced by carbide for wide planers, especially with tough
woods like knotty oak. There is a tendency for the blades to crack,
and then they are useless.

My dad's 6" jointer has planed something like 500 cubic feet of oak to
make a set of 10 panelled doors, a panelled partition, two staircases
and a balcony with only one set of HSS blades. We do have a universal
grinder (with coolant and a 12" pink wheel) for sharpening though.
(Thinking about it, it has also helped convert a couple of 8" x 8"
pitch-pine joists into 8 vertically sliding sash window frames and a
couple of old mahogany packing cases into garage doors too)

I think that carbide for wood only makes sense in the context of
disposable cutters. If you can re-grind then HSS blades suffer far
fewer catastrophic failures.

-- 
atp
"Torque wrenches are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"

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Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

[Glenn Edwards]

Gene,

I think it likely the blades you have were not hardened throughout from the
factory.  Only the cutting edge was induction hardened and you probably
removed the heat-treated edge with the first or second re-sharpening.
However, to see what you have, why don't you put the back-side of the blade
against a grinding wheel and see what kind of sparklers you get.  Any old
machinist book will have pictures showing the type of sparks that come from
higher carbon steel.

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@wdtv.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:42 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Sharpening jointer blades question

On Sunday, February 27, 2011 10:19:43 pm Edward Bernard did opine:

> I think your only mistake was buying from Lowe's. I've heard that 
> manufacturers selectively cut corners on tools they supply to the big 
> box stores to make their price points though I've never seen any real 
> evidence. But who knows? At any rate they are definitely price gouging 
> on the knives. Here are Amana knives at half the price:
> http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5578-planer-jointer-knife-sets-t-1-high-sp
> ee
> d-steel-hss.aspx
> 
I'd love to follow the link, but we had a couple power bumps about half an
hour ago, and my cable modem says there isn't any cable, so no network
either.

Funny, the loss of cable doesn't effect our tv's, cuz we get what we get off
air.  We get enough trash programming, and 300 more channels of trash is
still trash.

20 min later, cable's back so I have network.

I looked at the link, but I'm not sure if any of those knives would fit, not
without taking some off the back (or bottom).  Their narrowest 6" blade is
5/8" wide, and I don't think the knife pockets are that deep, the current
ones are only about 1/2" wide on the wide face.

But TBT, if I can use the 5/8" knife, I think I would rather spend about a
bill and get 3 of the carbide tipped versions, which are about $33 a knife.

That site not having pix of the knives does tend to make me a little
cautious.

One thing is for sure, with knife prices being gouged,  the possibility of a
helical carbide tipped drum looks better & better.  Yup, a Grizzly G0452 is
the same machine with a better base, $325 will put a complete carbide tipped
drum in it.  And Grizzly sells the steel blades at $22 a 3 pack, and they
are 5/8" wide when new.  So the plain but carbide tipped Amana blade should
fit too.

Choices, too damned many.  I may call those jerks I ordered from & cancel in
the morning, then go with the Amana carbide tipped blades.  I have a Dewalt
power planer with carbide blades in it I use for free hand carving & those
have 1 small nick, but have probably made 500 pounds of shavings over the
years as I trimmed & shaped the ends of commercial split rails to fit the 2
foot narrower between posts fencing around the front of the place. In 20
years, I've replaced all of them twice now.  Supposedly treated stuff too.
:(

> A trick I've used often when I get a knick in the knives is to simply 
> offset one knife and the problem is solved.

I went back out and swapped the diamond wheel for a re-inforced fiber about
2.5" in diameter, then went back over those blades again.  Tested it on a
piece of 1x2 clean yellow pine, the %$#@()& nicks were back in 2 passes,
before I'd made that 30" stick straight again.  These OEM blades are shit
steel.  I'd say they wuz wheel weights, but a magnet sticks to them.  
Grrr.

Thanks Greg

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

A bug in the hand is better than one as yet undetected.



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Re: [Emc-users] Guidance on usb comp

[Joachim Franek]

On Sunday 27 February 2011 14:13:12 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> If the community decided to go with this, I'd buy a couple, and arc up
> the gnu toolchain for this target, just for the fun of playing with ARM.
> These chips have one quadrature encoder input. At 100 MHz, and with
> hardware counters, I'd figure we could handle a couple.
> 
> However, I'm much more familiar with AVR (Atmel), have the toolchain up
> to working temperature, and can fix problems more quickly there. There
> are AVR-based ehternet card, including ethernut 1.3:
> 

I have update the
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?ARM
with the links from the last postings.

Have also a look to the bottom of the 
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?AVR
page: it is about AVR32 for motor control
(with eclipse based ide for linux).

I also prefer udp packets. Maybe we are
able to concentrate our forced and avoid
12 or more variants of udp packets. Is there
some code available on the emc side?

BTW: what do you think about PTP (IEEE 1588)?

Joachim

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