Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[alex chiosso]

Hi Bertho.
I'm following you since the beginning on this list and I've to say that
your work is really nice and professionally made .
I usually don't use cnc's for machining parts but to do material handling
or such so I need to make "jumps" within the G code (conditional or
unconditional) but the LCNC interpreter don't have this feature.
I've look at your instruction/functions sets but seem that in gcmc this
feature is missing too.
Is this because at the end of the conversion from gcmc to LCNC G code you
have to rely on LCNC G code interpreter , isn't it ?
Is there any way to improve this feature on gcmc ?
I hope I've expressed myself properly.

Alex

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:46 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 30 November 2014 14:10:09 Bertho Stultiens did opine
> And Gene did reply:
> > On 11/30/2014 03:46 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Sunday 30 November 2014 07:04:10 W. Martinjak did opine
> > >
> > > And Gene did reply:
> > >> On 2014-11-27 15:46, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> > >>> The updated documentation is online at:
> > >>>   http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-into
> > >>
> > >> Should be:
> > >> http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-intro
> > >
> > > Yes. is this very complete web page available in pdf for making dead
> > > tree copies? It would be bound and occupy the shelf beside the
> > > monitor in my case.
> >
> > Hm, no, not as such. But you could get the source html in the browser
> > (from the distro or webpage) and do a "Print to File" as a Postscript
> > file. Then run:
> > $ ps2pdf -dOptimize=true -dEmbedAllFonts=true -sPAPERSIZE=a4 myfile.ps
> > (or whatever papaer size you require) that will give you a "myfile.pdf"
> > file. Then you can print that pdf on a printer using dead trees, bind
> > it and put it on the shelf.
> >
> > However, it might be easier to save the html locally and read it
> > locally in the browser or print it from your browser directly then ;-)
>
> Which is what I just did, and punched & mounted in a folder.  But in
> looking it over, it seems to me that writing what I want it to do in a new
> language, and then translating it into gcode adds more complexity than I
> would have just writing it in gcode in the first place. I have it in mind
> to have a couple vars in it which will be used as multipliers so I can
> control which set of these huge box fingers is being cut by inverting the
> shape of the cut in the y direction depending on whether a var is  1.
> or 0.0.  The tool offset for its diameter will be similarly added or
> subtracted in step with the current xstep count.  Once I get all the
> variables set up and assigned, this whole thing can be done in another
> 15-20 lines of code in 2 loops, one to trace the fingers and one to
> increment the z depth. And to do the matching end pieces, just set the
> side to zero and the code will invert the y runs, and invert the tool
> radius so its added or subtracted from the current xtmp.  Finger joint fit
> will be by tweaking the tool radius, a tighter fit needed means I should
> up the tool radii a thou, or if too tight, reduce till its correct.  The
> fingers all get the corners radiused with a 1/4" round over bit so the
> side of the finger fits the bit radius at the inner end of the cut.
>
> Done right, these joints only need a drop of glue spread across the
> bottoms of the gully's between the fingers. Each finger will be drilled &
> countersunk, and a #6 pan head about 1.5" long will pull them together,
> hopefully before the glue sets up, and that means something slower than
> titebond III as its sets in 10 minutes too tight to squeeze it back out.
> Then the counter bore gets squared up with a punch I'll also have to make,
> and a teeny little pillow topped plug of Gabon ebony is glued & driven
> into the now punched out square screw hole to hide the screw.
>
> I'll have to make that tool because the counter bore needs to be flat
> bottomed, but I can pull the drill bit and reshape most any drill &
> countersink combo to do that.  The square punch I will have to make too.
> As  well as making the ebony plugs.  Almost $70 with shipping for a
> 2x2x12" piece of that stuff! And I will have made sawdust out of, or used
> about 24 bd/ft of $12/ft mahogany by the time I reach for the stuff to
> make some of Sam's stuff for finish. Thats $300 for mahogany right there.
> Add in the rest of the period hardware from WhiteChapel, and if someone
> wants a copy its going to be circa $750 for it.  This one is for my better
> half.  Too late for our 25th anniversary on Tuesday the 2nd, but it will
> get done if I don't fall over first.
>
> Today is a good day, I woke up. :)
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS
>
>
> ---

[Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Mark Wendt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmjYVNuLEE

;-)

 Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Marius Liebenberg]

Damn that is neat.

On 2014-12-01 12:13, Mark Wendt wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmjYVNuLEE
>
> ;-)
>
>   Mark
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-- 

Regards /Groete

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[John Thornton]

Mine only has a fine screen in the tray under the band saw.

JT

On 11/28/2014 7:28 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2014-11-28 14:55 GMT+02:00 John Thornton :
>> On 11/28/2014 6:48 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>>> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathe-Accessories/Coolant-Accessories#16-Litre-Coolant-System-090-080-00090
>> That's the exact same pump and tank that I have on my band saw...
>> different color and label.
>>
> Andy, thank you for the link! I was thinking about getting a kit like
> that, because overall cost of my experiments might exceed pricetag of
> such device. The problem was that I couldn't find any.
>
> John, what is your opinion about it? Do I need to add some filters on
> return hose?
>
> Viesturs
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[andy pugh]

On 1 December 2014 at 11:41, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> Damn that is neat.

Now I have to spend all day interpreting an enormous data file of test
results :-)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[andy pugh]

On 1 December 2014 at 02:05, Dave Cole  wrote:
> it is
> safe to drink in small quantities (seriously).

Not _that_ safe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal

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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Mark Wendt]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:47 AM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 1 December 2014 at 11:41, Marius Liebenberg 
> wrote:
> > Damn that is neat.
>
> Now I have to spend all day interpreting an enormous data file of test
> results :-)
>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>

There's a perl script for that.  ;-)

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] EMC communication problem then motor start

[Todd Zuercher]

Then let her have it.  

It won't do her any good and it won't sell for much, (especially if it isn't 
working.)

Then buy it back at what ever auction she has to unload it at, for a fraction 
of its worth to you.


- Original Message -
From: "Karlsson & Wang" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Monday, December 1, 2014 12:46:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC communication problem then motor start

I found this http://www.x2y.com/publications/dcmotors/feb14-05.pdf document 
which may be useful for others, observe however it is written by the company 
who sell the GOOD components. The noise is there, it worked on the table but 
disturb communication on real, hopefully I will be able to test again this 
weekend. Biggest problem right now is my wife during divorse want four times as 
much for machine as I bought it for and she do not want me to have it.

Nicklas Karlsson



On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:51:06 -0500
Dave Cole  wrote:

> I've had a couple of installations where filters were required and in 
> both cases the problem was that the drives (servo drives recently, VFDs 
> previously) were pumping noise back into the AC line which got into the 
> other power supplies and or radiated onto the low voltage circuits and 
> caused problems.   In both cases input line filters mounted close to the 
> drives isolated the noisy drives from the rest of the control system.
> 
> Most servo motor drive cables supplied with the servo drives are 
> shielded and those generally don't seem to cause problems however I try 
> and keep the encoder feedback cables as far apart from the motor cables 
> as practical - such as opposite sides of a cable tray etc.
> 
> VFD motor cabling should be in their own conduit/metallic sealtite or in 
> sheilded cable.
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 11/27/2014 1:12 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > On 11/27/2014 08:32 AM, Karlsson & Wang wrote:
> >> A small value capacitor decrease the problem so I guess the
> >> commutation spikes are the problem but driving a capacitive load is
> >> not good.
> >>
> >> Nicklas Karlsson
> > (My general view on noise)
> > One should not expect to simply run a wire from a signal source to an
> > input in a machine environment and expect it to just work. Machines tend
> > to be electrically and magnetically noisy, and signal inputs tend to
> > have very high impedance. It's like the cable is a bottle and wind is a
> > noise source. Wind going over the end of a bottle will create a sound
> > which can drown out any sound you need to hear.
> >
> > To fix this one can reduce the noise and/or increase the sound level of
> > the signal.
> >
> > I found that AC line filters on VFDs or any switching power supply is
> > pretty much required. I had spindle encoder noise on the far side of my
> > lathe which was cleared up using AC mains filters on the VFD power
> > inputs and ferrite beads on the motor leads, thus reducing the noise
> > source. Sometimes an AM radio or oscilloscope probe can be used to scan
> > for noise sources, but I usually just add the filters anyway.
> >
> > After reducing noise sources, the susceptibility for the bottle or
> > rather cable to be affected by noise can be addressed. Shielding is the
> > most obvious approach, but more often, line conditioning is the real
> > issue. A bottle will make sound due to a pressure wave, starting from
> > the top of the bottle and travels down to the bottom and bounces back. A
> > wire will do the same thing, and the source of the reflected wave could
> > be the signal itself as well as noise. One way to stop the pressure wave
> > from reflecting is to put a hole in the bottom, changing the bottle's
> > bottom from high impedance to low. There are many ways to configure a
> > wire to handle a signal, generally through termination and filtering.
> > Much of this has been worked out already, so the methods for handling
> > the type of cable being used should be studied and put into practice.
> >
> > Another way to deal with noise is to boost the signal above the noise
> > level. That is why RS-232, RS-422/485 run with a much higher voltage
> > than USB, SPI or I2C. RS-422/485 use two wires, one with a positive
> > signal, the other with a negative version of the signal. Noise affects
> > both wires the same way, but the difference stays the same, so the noise
> > is ignored.
> >
> > So for each signal:
> > What is the nature of the signal? (driver and input)
> > What is the nature of the wire? (impedance, configuration, termination,
> > filtering)
> > What is the nature of the noise environment? (suppression, shielding)
> > What method best addresses the above? (which industrial standard)
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Todd Zuercher]

Not the same chemical.  He said propylene glycol, which is used for frost 
proofing drinking water systems and is relatively innocuous.  Diethylene and 
ethylene glycol are poisonous.

- Original Message -
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Monday, December 1, 2014 7:49:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

On 1 December 2014 at 02:05, Dave Cole  wrote:
> it is
> safe to drink in small quantities (seriously).

Not _that_ safe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Marius Liebenberg]

On 2014-12-01 14:49, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 December 2014 at 02:05, Dave Cole  wrote:
>> it is
>> safe to drink in small quantities (seriously).
> Not _that_ safe:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
>
Ok so now I know why they say a good bottle of sweet wine will keep you 
warmed up on a cold winters night. Its the anti-freeze :)

-- 

Regards /Groete

Marius D. Liebenberg
+27 82 698 3251
+27 12 743 6064
QQ 1767394877


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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[andy pugh]

On 1 December 2014 at 14:21, ToddZuercher  wrote:
> Not the same chemical.  He said propylene glycol, which is used for frost 
> proofing drinking water systems and is relatively innocuous.

Ah, yes, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol#Safety_in_Humans

It sounds safer than unadulterated wine, in fact.

Wikipedia led me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_sulfanilamide
which is interesting, and does rather suggest that your FDA is
necessary.

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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Dave Caroline]

And it still didnt work...usual error it was not plugged it!

Dave

On 01/12/2014, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:47 AM, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>> On 1 December 2014 at 11:41, Marius Liebenberg 
>> wrote:
>> > Damn that is neat.
>>
>> Now I have to spend all day interpreting an enormous data file of test
>> results :-)
>>
>> --
>> atp
>> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>
>
> There's a perl script for that.  ;-)
>
> Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] gs2_vfd Hal component

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 12/1/14 12:15 AM, Mark Johnsen wrote:
> Sebastian (and others) - thanks for the reply.  I have a little voice in my
> head since the Houston LinuxCNC Fest, "Update manuals where you can..."
>   :-)

Yep :-)


> I'll make sure I get the cable pinout included in the manuals as I googled
> a 9-pin dsub serial port to determine if pin 2 or 3 is the Tx or Rx, only
> to find out after the fact that guessing would have been just as good as
> the google images of 9-pin dsubs have no consistency.  Some images show pin
> 2 as Tx, some show pin 2 as Rx.  That's no help...

I think there are two things missing from the gs2_vfd manpage:

* A description of modbus register settings needed on the GS2.  This 
document probably has most of the info, but it should also be in the 
manpage: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/examples/gs2_example.html

* The pinout of the RJ-12 "Serial Comm Port" on the GS2.


A patch against 2.6 would be very welcome.  Let me know if i can give 
you any help with it.  :-)


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Kirk Wallace]

On 12/01/2014 04:51 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:47 AM, andy pugh  wrote:


On 1 December 2014 at 11:41, Marius Liebenberg 
wrote:

Damn that is neat.


Now I have to spend all day interpreting an enormous data file of test
results :-)

--
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto



There's a perl script for that.  ;-)

Mark


HAL can do it too. I wrote a GladeVCP application and HAL component that 
automatically tests a control board. The component invokes a sequence of 
commands and checks for a response. You press start and it goes through 
the tests. If the response LEDs are all green at the end, then the board 
passes. There is also a manual mode for trouble shooting. The board goes 
on a partial bed-o-nails to make changing boards a little easier.

(The attached screen shot is of the Glade layout, so looks a little funky)

--
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[dave]

On 12/01/2014 04:49 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 December 2014 at 02:05, Dave Cole  wrote:
>> it is
>> safe to drink in small quantities (seriously).
> Not _that_ safe:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
>
Case in point; in 1937 di-ethylene-glycol was used as a carrier for 
sulfanilamide in an elixir containing 10% sulfanilamide, 72% glycol and 
the balance water and flavor. That formulation resulted in 76 deaths and 
over a 100 made ill by the formulation.

Google -> ethylene glycol gives toxicity and LD50.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] gs2_vfd Hal component

[Kirk Wallace]

On 11/30/2014 11:15 PM, Mark Johnsen wrote:
> Sebastian (and others) - thanks for the reply.  I have a little voice in my
> head since the Houston LinuxCNC Fest, "Update manuals where you can..."
>   :-)
>
> I'll make sure I get the cable pinout included in the manuals as I googled
> a 9-pin dsub serial port to determine if pin 2 or 3 is the Tx or Rx, only
> to find out after the fact that guessing would have been just as good as
> the google images of 9-pin dsubs have no consistency.  Some images show pin
> 2 as Tx, some show pin 2 as Rx.  That's no help...

For an RS-232 connection (with software handshake selected), there are 
only three wires used; Rx, Tx, and ground. The VFD manual shows the 
pin-out on the VFD side. There are plenty of sources for PC serial port 
pin-outs. You can unplug the VFD side and jumper the Rx and Tx pins to 
loop the signal back. Minicom can be used to send data and check for its 
echo.RS-485 gets more complecated, but can also be on a 9-pin D-sub. 
Modbus gets more complicated because you won't get a response until the 
link is working (there is a broadcast packet that can be handy). There 
are sniffers you can use to help troubleshoot, maybe WireShark? It has 
been a while since I have played with this, so I'm a bit rusty.


-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[dave]

On 12/01/2014 06:21 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Not the same chemical.  He said propylene glycol, which is used for frost 
> proofing drinking water systems and is relatively innocuous.  Diethylene and 
> ethylene glycol are poisonous.

I do believe di-ethylene-glycol and ethylene glycol are the same thing.  
It is toxic because of the metabolic products whereas propylene glycol 
degrades to relatively non-toxic substances.

D
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "andy pugh" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Monday, December 1, 2014 7:49:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering
>
> On 1 December 2014 at 02:05, Dave Cole  wrote:
>> it is
>> safe to drink in small quantities (seriously).
> Not _that_ safe:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
>


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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/01/2014 12:46 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The updated documentation is online at:
>   http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-into
 Should be:
 http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-intro
>>> Yes. is this very complete web page available in pdf for making dead
>>> tree copies? It would be bound and occupy the shelf beside the
>>> monitor in my case.
>> Hm, no, not as such. But you could get the source html in the browser
>> (from the distro or webpage) and do a "Print to File" as a Postscript
>> file. Then run:
>> $ ps2pdf -dOptimize=true -dEmbedAllFonts=true -sPAPERSIZE=a4 myfile.ps
>> (or whatever papaer size you require) that will give you a "myfile.pdf"
>> file. Then you can print that pdf on a printer using dead trees, bind
>> it and put it on the shelf.
>> However, it might be easier to save the html locally and read it
>> locally in the browser or print it from your browser directly then ;-)
> 
> Which is what I just did, and punched & mounted in a folder.  But in 
> looking it over, it seems to me that writing what I want it to do in a new 
> language, and then translating it into gcode adds more complexity than I 
> would have just writing it in gcode in the first place.

Well, that is a matter of opinion, I guess. It is often easier to revert
to old habits instead of learning new tricks. I know because I tend to
do that too all too often (boy I feel old now ;-)

The point being, using a new language means thinking at a different
level of abstraction, which is always a steep learning curve.

Speaking for my self, I just got fed up with plain gcode's archaics and
wanted more structure.


> I have it in mind 
> to have a couple vars in it which will be used as multipliers so I can 
> control which set of these huge box fingers is being cut by inverting the 
> shape of the cut in the y direction depending on whether a var is  1. 
> or 0.0.
>... [snip] ...

Wow, you lost me there.


> Today is a good day, I woke up. :)

This I can relate to :-)


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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 11/30/2014 11:08 PM, TZ(Paypal) wrote:
> Have you considered doing a YouTube video that shows how gcmc is
> used? If you include CNC and Gcode in the title, I think you will get
> a lot of exposure.
> For example, take a look at the following video. He already has 5600+
> views since Nov. 6th 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJFp9YjDqiY

Well, considered, yes, but have no clue what or how to demonstrate.
Also, it looks easy to make a video, but it is actually a lot of work
and I'm not that good at visual media.

I certainly see the point in doing so, which is why I wrote the intro
document. I'd like to write more, but I have no current projects to use
as an inspiration to go through all the movements.

Maybe all I have is bad excuses...


> Besides, doing a video will take some of the mystery out of gcmc, for
> those people who might not know quite what it is, and the power of
> it. I'm a C programmer, so I recognized the power of gcmc
> immediately. :)

Well, yes, gcmc is a paradigm shift from plain gcode. That leap is
easiest to see for those who have coded before in similar languages. New
paradigs take time to be incorporated into the general knowledge base to
be seen as "the way to do it".

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/01/2014 09:08 AM, alex chiosso wrote:
> I'm following you since the beginning on this list and I've to say
> that your work is really nice and professionally made.

I try to bo my best ;-)


> I usually don't use cnc's for machining parts but to do material
> handling or such so I need to make "jumps" within the G code
> (conditional or unconditional) but the LCNC interpreter don't have
> this feature. I've look at your instruction/functions sets but seem
> that in gcmc this feature is missing too.
> Is this because at the end of the conversion from gcmc to LCNC G code
> you have to rely on LCNC G code interpreter , isn't it ? Is there any
> way to improve this feature on gcmc ?

I do not understand what you mean by "jumps". All CNC machines use
turtle graphics in 2D, 3D, 4D, etc. Gcmc is an abstract way to program
the path of the "turtle" (mill) based on fairly standard math
descriptions (vectors).

CNC machines cannot physically jump. Well, they might do that, but that
would not be a good thing, I guess.

Can you give me an example when you want to "jump" and what that
actually means for you? My guess is that you can use sub-routines to
encapsulate functional routines for your "handling" machine and bind
them together in conditional/uncoditional way.

However, if you have (complex) feedback from your machine to decide what
to do next, then you will find it difficult to use gcmc. It could be
solved by using a different backend in gcmc to do other interactions,
but that requires some development work and would depend highly on the
application.


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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[alex chiosso]

Hi Bertho .
Thanks for the reply.
This is an abstract of a post (that I opened a couple of months ago) on the
conditional-unconditional nc program flow control .

>  USA brand CNC manufacturer (Delta Tau PMAC-NC Pro2
> ) and they use
> GOTO as a standard function for the NC program control into parametric
> programming FANUC style .
> And they declare :
> To maintain FANUC compatibility, this form of a conditional expression
> should be adhered to.
> GOTO expressions  can be followed by an expression 

I used the term "jumps" because you already use an instruction called
"goto" .
So to be not ambiguous I used a different term to express myself.

Alex


On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Bertho Stultiens 
wrote:

> On 12/01/2014 09:08 AM, alex chiosso wrote:
> > I'm following you since the beginning on this list and I've to say
> > that your work is really nice and professionally made.
>
> I try to bo my best ;-)
>
>
> > I usually don't use cnc's for machining parts but to do material
> > handling or such so I need to make "jumps" within the G code
> > (conditional or unconditional) but the LCNC interpreter don't have
> > this feature. I've look at your instruction/functions sets but seem
> > that in gcmc this feature is missing too.
> > Is this because at the end of the conversion from gcmc to LCNC G code
> > you have to rely on LCNC G code interpreter , isn't it ? Is there any
> > way to improve this feature on gcmc ?
>
> I do not understand what you mean by "jumps". All CNC machines use
> turtle graphics in 2D, 3D, 4D, etc. Gcmc is an abstract way to program
> the path of the "turtle" (mill) based on fairly standard math
> descriptions (vectors).
>
> CNC machines cannot physically jump. Well, they might do that, but that
> would not be a good thing, I guess.
>
> Can you give me an example when you want to "jump" and what that
> actually means for you? My guess is that you can use sub-routines to
> encapsulate functional routines for your "handling" machine and bind
> them together in conditional/uncoditional way.
>
> However, if you have (complex) feedback from your machine to decide what
> to do next, then you will find it difficult to use gcmc. It could be
> solved by using a different backend in gcmc to do other interactions,
> but that requires some development work and would depend highly on the
> application.
>
>
> --
> Greetings Bertho
>
> (disclaimers are disclaimed)
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Tired of spending the entire day at the troubleshooting bench?

[Jon Elson]

On 12/01/2014 04:13 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmjYVNuLEE
>
>
Never seen this used on stuffed boards!  It is pretty common 
for low-volume
PC board fabs to use flying probe testers to check the bare 
boards for
shorts and opens.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Jon Elson]

On 12/01/2014 11:11 AM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> All CNC machines use turtle graphics in 2D, 3D, 4D, etc.
No, turtle graphics is a scheme where the coordinate system is
centered on the turtle, and everything is relative to which way
the turtle is pointing now.  So, if the turtle makes a 90 degree
turn to the left, and then moves forward, it will go in a 
different
direction than it would have before turning.  So, the only 
operations
permitted are turning left or right by some angle, and 
moving forward
in whatever way the turtle is pointing.

Most CNC machines have a fixed coordinate system, with an X
axis, and a Y (or Z) axis that is 90 degrees to the X.  
There is no
operation to turn left or right, and a +X move will always be in
the same direction.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Bruce Layne]

On 12/01/2014 10:04 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> Wikipedia led me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_sulfanilamide 
> which is interesting, and does rather suggest that your FDA is necessary. 

The FDA now does little to ensure product safety, but they do add 
millions to the cost of drug development.  They refer to the large 
pharmaceutical companies as "our customers" in internal documents. 
They're essentially a big government bureaucracy that has formed a 
symbiotic relationship with large pharmaceutical companies.  The FDA 
bureaucracy benefits as their government jobs are justified, and Big 
Pharma benefits by having a barrier to entry for smaller competitors 
that are unable to run the expensive and convoluted FDA regulatory maze.

In the above example, the large pharmaceutical company Massengill paid a 
very small fine for negligently marketing their sulfanilamide product 
that killed a hundred people (many of them were children). The small 
fine was levied because the product was marketed as an elixir but 
contained no alcohol.  Apparently, there was no fine for including a 
toxic substance that killed people.

But things got better after the FDA, and the FDA approved products were 
safe.  Right?  The list of unsafe drugs approved by the FDA would fill 
an encyclopedia.  Here is but one gruesome example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Birth_defects_crisis

In the US, you're likely to see a vaguely worded televised ad during the 
evening news, urging you to "ask your doctor if Xycomax may be right for 
you."  The FDA prohibits drug companies from marketing directly to 
consumers, but Big Pharma spends BILLIONS every year on 
direct-to-consumer ads, but they need to be properly vague, with an 
entire industry of lawyers and marketing agents to facilitate these 
ads.  Two weeks later, you'll see a televised ad, after midnight, with 
some sleazy lawyer.  "Have you taken Xycomax and had kidney failure, 
hair loss, or depression?  Call us and we can get you a big check!"  For 
all of the justifiable complaining about ambulance chasing lawyers and 
their rip-off class action lawsuits where the victims get pennies and 
the lawyers get millions, these weasel lawyers do more to ensure the 
safety of drugs marketed in the US than the FDA.


On 12/01/2014 11:28 AM, dave wrote:
> I do believe di-ethylene-glycol and ethylene glycol are the same thing.

Nope.

Ethylene glycol - C_2 H_6 O_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol


Diethylene glycol - C_4 H_10 O_3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol


Back On Topic:

A few of the hobby and small business entrepreneur machinists on YouTube 
(Grimsmo Knives, Tactical Keychains, WarMachine) are posting videos of 
improvements they've made to their coolant systems. Typically, the 
coolant drains through one or two settling tanks where the big chips are 
removed.  There is often a coarse filter, sometimes a fine screen, and 
sometimes a disposable 5 gallon bucket paint strainer.  Next in line is 
a high pressure pump, often a Little Giant pond pump.  After the pump is 
a "whole house water filter" (search Amazon.com for examples) to catch 
the fine chips that pass through the pump, to prevent the tiny chips in 
the flood coolant from being re-cut and reducing the life of carbide 
tooling. a 20 micron filter provides good filtration for this purpose 
without too much pressure drop.  Apparently, Qualichem synthetic 
coolants are well regarded.

http://www.qualichem.com/metalworking-fluids





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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[andy pugh]

On 1 December 2014 at 16:58, Bertho Stultiens  wrote:
> Well, yes, gcmc is a paradigm shift from plain gcode. That leap is
> easiest to see for those who have coded before in similar languages.

I am not suggesting that you (or anyone) should do this, but it would
be a logical extension to eliminate the G-code phase, and use a
different interpreter to convert the gcmc code directly to machine
motion primitives.

There are other competitor codes to G-code which have failed to
replace it, however, and adding another to the list would probably be
frustrating.

-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[andy pugh]

It probably wouldn't be too hard to create something like this:
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/coolant-filter-machine-tools-industrial-14589-3775093.jpg

When the float floats, then the switch advances the mesh conveyor and
moves a clean section of filter into place.
On the ones I have seen the used filter mat and chips end up in a bin,
so this is probably best as a second-stage filter after a settling
tank.


-- 
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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Eric Keller]

our machine uses cloth filter bags on the return.  McMaster sells them in
the U.S.  Don't see the bowl we have on the McMaster site, I thought they
sold one like it.  It's really a strainer basket

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:09 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

> It probably wouldn't be too hard to create something like this:
>
> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/coolant-filter-machine-tools-industrial-14589-3775093.jpg
>
> When the float floats, then the switch advances the mesh conveyor and
> moves a clean section of filter into place.
> On the ones I have seen the used filter mat and chips end up in a bin,
> so this is probably best as a second-stage filter after a settling
> tank.
>
>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[TJoseph Powderly]

On 12/01/2014 12:34 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> our machine uses cloth filter bags on the return.  McMaster sells them in
> the U.S.  Don't see the bowl we have on the McMaster site, I thought they
> sold one like it.  It's really a strainer basket
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:09 PM, andy pugh  wrote:
>
>> It probably wouldn't be too hard to create something like this:
>>
>> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/coolant-filter-machine-tools-industrial-14589-3775093.jpg
>>
>> When the float floats, then the switch advances the mesh conveyor and
>> moves a clean section of filter into place.
>> On the ones I have seen the used filter mat and chips end up in a bin,
>> so this is probably best as a second-stage filter after a settling
>> tank.
>>
>>
>> --
>> atp
>> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>
>>
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the best filtration we ever found was
time
it'll settle out
we tried centrifuges and sand filters,
ceramic disc and micron paper filter
time worked best
its just slow

next best was
slowly turn a corner
as fluid changes direction, particles drop out of the flow
we used many concentric LOW pools ( 20mm to 30 mm )
each overflowing into next, flow rate incredible slow
this is just big, lotsa floor space

and then there's always
cow magnets
http://www.westpointfarmvets.co.uk/cowmagnets/
goto agri-store and buy a bag
put in take near outflow
clean 'em off once in a while

regards
TomP tjtr33

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Viesturs Lācis]

2014-12-01 21:41 GMT+02:00 TJoseph Powderly :
>
> and then there's always
> cow magnets
> http://www.westpointfarmvets.co.uk/cowmagnets/
> goto agri-store and buy a bag
> put in take near outflow
> clean 'em off once in a while
>

But that works only for ferrous-based materials - steel etc.

Viesturs

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[andy pugh]

On 1 December 2014 at 19:41, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> and then there's always
> cow magnets

But I don't have a problem with cows in my coolant

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/01/2014 06:25 PM, alex chiosso wrote:
> This is an abstract of a post (that I opened a couple of months ago) on the
> conditional-unconditional nc program flow control .
>>  USA brand CNC manufacturer (Delta Tau PMAC-NC Pro2
>> ) and they use
>> GOTO as a standard function for the NC program control into parametric
>> programming FANUC style .
>> And they declare :
>> To maintain FANUC compatibility, this form of a conditional expression
>> should be adhered to.
>> GOTO expressions  can be followed by an expression 
> I used the term "jumps" because you already use an instruction called
> "goto" .
> So to be not ambiguous I used a different term to express myself.

I guess you mean the programming construct "go to".

For gcmc, the goto(arg) function translates to rapid move to position
, which has nothing at all to do with the language construct "go to".

If my interpretation is the case, then read on, else please elaborate.

First of all, you may want to google "Go To Considered Harmful". The
argument is that a structured language should not have an explicit go to
functionalty to alter program flow.

In general, I subscribe to that sentiment, in which a structured
language, like gcmc, never should allow to alter the program flow in
unexpected ways. The language's control statements (if, while, for,
repeat, etc.) already allow for the required flexibility in program
flow-control.


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Re: [Emc-users] EMC communication problem then motor start

[Stuart Stevenson]

After this problem has some type of resolution you must remember

If it has tits or wheels it will cost money and cause problems. :)

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> Then let her have it.
>
> It won't do her any good and it won't sell for much, (especially if it
> isn't working.)
>
> Then buy it back at what ever auction she has to unload it at, for a
> fraction of its worth to you.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Karlsson & Wang" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: Monday, December 1, 2014 12:46:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] EMC communication problem then motor start
>
> I found this http://www.x2y.com/publications/dcmotors/feb14-05.pdf
> document which may be useful for others, observe however it is written by
> the company who sell the GOOD components. The noise is there, it worked on
> the table but disturb communication on real, hopefully I will be able to
> test again this weekend. Biggest problem right now is my wife during
> divorse want four times as much for machine as I bought it for and she do
> not want me to have it.
>
> Nicklas Karlsson
>
>
>
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 20:51:06 -0500
> Dave Cole  wrote:
>
> > I've had a couple of installations where filters were required and in
> > both cases the problem was that the drives (servo drives recently, VFDs
> > previously) were pumping noise back into the AC line which got into the
> > other power supplies and or radiated onto the low voltage circuits and
> > caused problems.   In both cases input line filters mounted close to the
> > drives isolated the noisy drives from the rest of the control system.
> >
> > Most servo motor drive cables supplied with the servo drives are
> > shielded and those generally don't seem to cause problems however I try
> > and keep the encoder feedback cables as far apart from the motor cables
> > as practical - such as opposite sides of a cable tray etc.
> >
> > VFD motor cabling should be in their own conduit/metallic sealtite or in
> > sheilded cable.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 11/27/2014 1:12 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > > On 11/27/2014 08:32 AM, Karlsson & Wang wrote:
> > >> A small value capacitor decrease the problem so I guess the
> > >> commutation spikes are the problem but driving a capacitive load is
> > >> not good.
> > >>
> > >> Nicklas Karlsson
> > > (My general view on noise)
> > > One should not expect to simply run a wire from a signal source to an
> > > input in a machine environment and expect it to just work. Machines
> tend
> > > to be electrically and magnetically noisy, and signal inputs tend to
> > > have very high impedance. It's like the cable is a bottle and wind is a
> > > noise source. Wind going over the end of a bottle will create a sound
> > > which can drown out any sound you need to hear.
> > >
> > > To fix this one can reduce the noise and/or increase the sound level of
> > > the signal.
> > >
> > > I found that AC line filters on VFDs or any switching power supply is
> > > pretty much required. I had spindle encoder noise on the far side of my
> > > lathe which was cleared up using AC mains filters on the VFD power
> > > inputs and ferrite beads on the motor leads, thus reducing the noise
> > > source. Sometimes an AM radio or oscilloscope probe can be used to scan
> > > for noise sources, but I usually just add the filters anyway.
> > >
> > > After reducing noise sources, the susceptibility for the bottle or
> > > rather cable to be affected by noise can be addressed. Shielding is the
> > > most obvious approach, but more often, line conditioning is the real
> > > issue. A bottle will make sound due to a pressure wave, starting from
> > > the top of the bottle and travels down to the bottom and bounces back.
> A
> > > wire will do the same thing, and the source of the reflected wave could
> > > be the signal itself as well as noise. One way to stop the pressure
> wave
> > > from reflecting is to put a hole in the bottom, changing the bottle's
> > > bottom from high impedance to low. There are many ways to configure a
> > > wire to handle a signal, generally through termination and filtering.
> > > Much of this has been worked out already, so the methods for handling
> > > the type of cable being used should be studied and put into practice.
> > >
> > > Another way to deal with noise is to boost the signal above the noise
> > > level. That is why RS-232, RS-422/485 run with a much higher voltage
> > > than USB, SPI or I2C. RS-422/485 use two wires, one with a positive
> > > signal, the other with a negative version of the signal. Noise affects
> > > both wires the same way, but the difference stays the same, so the
> noise
> > > is ignored.
> > >
> > > So for each signal:
> > > What is the nature of the signal? (driver and input)
> > > What is the nature of the wire? (impedance, configuration, termination,
> > > filtering)
> > > What is the nature of the noise environment? (suppression, shielding)
> > > What method best addresses the

Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/01/2014 06:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>> All CNC machines use turtle graphics in 2D, 3D, 4D, etc.
> No, turtle graphics is a scheme where the coordinate system is 
> centered on the turtle, and everything is relative to which way the
> turtle is pointing now. So, if the turtle makes a 90 degree turn to
> the left, and then moves forward, it will go in a different direction
> than it would have before turning. So, the only operations permitted
> are turning left or right by some angle, and moving forward in
> whatever way the turtle is pointing.

That I would call a semantic interpretation. Whether you turn the turtle
or the coordinate system is a matter of frame of reference, which,
mathematically, is a simple trick. The distinction is IMO irrelevant as
you can always define the exact transformation matrix to any frame of
reference (and we are not going to come close to speed c).

Your assertion does not hold entirely, because some machines have a
rotational axis, which alter the coordinate system, as seen from the
object under construction.

The point of "turtle graphics" is that the the point-of-operation is a
continuous and uninterrupted curve (in the zero order; derivatives may
be discontinuous). A milling bit does not magically appear/disappear at
the operator's whim and will thus follow a continuous path in the zero
order with respect to the object.

(let us not split hairs on doing tool-changes)


> Most CNC machines have a fixed coordinate system, with an X axis, and
> a Y (or Z) axis that is 90 degrees to the X. There is no operation to
> turn left or right, and a +X move will always be in the same
> direction.

Actually, the /machine/ usually has a fixed frame of reference. The
programmer is welcome to use a different one as long as it is ultimately
translated to the machine's coordinate system. As I said, it is a matter
of frame of reference.

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/01/2014 07:01 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 December 2014 at 16:58, Bertho Stultiens  wrote:
>> Well, yes, gcmc is a paradigm shift from plain gcode. That leap is
>> easiest to see for those who have coded before in similar languages.
> I am not suggesting that you (or anyone) should do this, but it would
> be a logical extension to eliminate the G-code phase, and use a
> different interpreter to convert the gcmc code directly to machine
> motion primitives.

I'd like that very much, replacing gcode with another top-level
language. But the language should be developed far enough and have a
good and broad userbase to be viable.


> There are other competitor codes to G-code which have failed to
> replace it, however, and adding another to the list would probably be
> frustrating.

Indeed, if the effort goes lost in the infinite bitstream, then it would
be frustrating. Therefore, building a stable and solid userbase is the
first part that should be established. Broader use would also develop
the language more to be as expressive as necessary for general purpose
operation.

The real point here is that broader use requires publishing it to a
wider (targeted) audience. CNC machining is not my area of expertise (I
am a noob in that respect) and come from electronics and computer
science. So getting in touch with and convincing an unfamiliar group of
people of my ideas is hard for me. Finding the right outlets and
speaking the right language is a hurdle.


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Dave Cole]

On 12/1/2014 3:12 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 1 December 2014 at 19:41, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
>> and then there's always
>> cow magnets
> But I don't have a problem with cows in my coolant

You say that now. but we've been warned.
And remember Propylene Glycol ask for it by name, and only drink the 
good stuff.  ;-)





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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Jack Coats]

Propylene Glycol is anhydrous (naturally without water), absorbs water even
from the air.  It holds more heat in a 50-50 mixture with water, but if you
are trying to keep all rust out, you want it in anhydrous (without water)
from.
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Jon Elson]

On 12/01/2014 11:55 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> But things got better after the FDA, and the FDA approved 
> products were safe. Right? The list of unsafe drugs 
> approved by the FDA would fill an encyclopedia. Here is 
> but one gruesome example. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Birth_defects_crisis
The FDA never approved use of Thalidomide in the US.  
Practically all
US cases of birth defects from it were from mothers who were in
Europe when it was in widespread use.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Dave Cole]

On 12/1/2014 8:51 PM, Jack Coats wrote:
> Propylene Glycol is anhydrous (naturally without water), absorbs water even
> from the air.  It holds more heat in a 50-50 mixture with water, but if you
> are trying to keep all rust out, you want it in anhydrous (without water)
> from.
> --

Didn't know that.   It is interesting stuff.   Apparently it is also a 
food additive which seems very strange.
It seems somewhat slippery but it doesn't seem to be a problem with my 
bandsaw drive wheel as the blade doesn't seem to slip on the steel wheel.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Dave Cole]

On 12/1/2014 8:51 PM, Jack Coats wrote:
> Propylene Glycol is anhydrous (naturally without water), absorbs water even
> from the air.  It holds more heat in a 50-50 mixture with water, but if you
> are trying to keep all rust out, you want it in anhydrous (without water)
> from.
> --

Didn't know that.   It is interesting stuff.   Apparently it is also a 
food additive which seems very strange.
It seems somewhat slippery but it doesn't seem to be a problem with my 
bandsaw drive wheel as the blade doesn't seem to slip on the steel wheel.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 December 2014 11:41:10 Bertho Stultiens did opine
And Gene did reply:
> On 12/01/2014 12:46 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The updated documentation is online at:
> >   http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-into
>  
>  Should be:
>  http://www.vagrearg.org/content/gcmc-intro
> >>> 
> >>> Yes. is this very complete web page available in pdf for making
> >>> dead tree copies? It would be bound and occupy the shelf beside
> >>> the monitor in my case.
> >> 
> >> Hm, no, not as such. But you could get the source html in the
> >> browser (from the distro or webpage) and do a "Print to File" as a
> >> Postscript file. Then run:
> >> $ ps2pdf -dOptimize=true -dEmbedAllFonts=true -sPAPERSIZE=a4
> >> myfile.ps (or whatever papaer size you require) that will give you
> >> a "myfile.pdf" file. Then you can print that pdf on a printer using
> >> dead trees, bind it and put it on the shelf.
> >> However, it might be easier to save the html locally and read it
> >> locally in the browser or print it from your browser directly then
> >> ;-)
> > 
> > Which is what I just did, and punched & mounted in a folder.  But in
> > looking it over, it seems to me that writing what I want it to do in
> > a new language, and then translating it into gcode adds more
> > complexity than I would have just writing it in gcode in the first
> > place.
> 
> Well, that is a matter of opinion, I guess. It is often easier to
> revert to old habits instead of learning new tricks. I know because I
> tend to do that too all too often (boy I feel old now ;-)
> 
But I'd bet a bottle of your favorite suds you are chasing me, I turned 80 
almost 2 months back. ;-)

> The point being, using a new language means thinking at a different
> level of abstraction, which is always a steep learning curve.

There is certainly that, Bertho.  It I think, goes hand in hand with the 
poorer short term memory that comes with the years.  I am also a DM-II 
which is of zero advantage.  The degradation is hard to measure, but its 
there, and there is little use denying it.
> 
> Speaking for my self, I just got fed up with plain gcode's archaics and
> wanted more structure.

GCodes available loop capabilities can be used for that structure fairly 
easily. When I am hand carving such code, making use of those to do step & 
repeat can shrink the code drastically.  I spent half the day writing a 
routine to cut those huge box joints that are part of the Green & Green 
period style from 100+ years ago. But when its done, I will be able to 
change its behavior so as to cut the matching box fingers on the piece of 
Mahogany that fits very snuggly in the first ones cut, then change one var 
in the header, and put a 1/4" round over bit in the collet and do all the 
rounded corners it calls for too.  Might even be able to do all the 
drilling and cap screw style recesses to be squared up with a punch and a 
teeny ebony pillow topped plug glued in.  But to check fits, I will likely 
waste 4 or 5 feet of 1x12 white pine, 4" at a time making test cuts & fine 
tuning fits before I ever stick any $12 bdft Mahogany into the holding jig 
on the table.

All in less than 150 LOC. What I have right now is about 70 LOC, and 30+ 
of those are comments so I can figure it out a year from now if I need to 
change it. :)

> > I have it in mind
> > to have a couple vars in it which will be used as multipliers so I
> > can control which set of these huge box fingers is being cut by
> > inverting the shape of the cut in the y direction depending on
> > whether a var is  1. or 0.0.
> >
> >... [snip] ...
> 
> Wow, you lost me there.
> 
> > Today is a good day, I woke up. :)
> 
> This I can relate to :-)


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Jack Coats]

Yea, Propylene Glycol also is poisonous to dogs and cats (and probably
people if you drink it straight).  It evidently tastes sweet, but more than
a tiny bit can be fatal.  So keep your coolant tub covered and clean up
spills before your shop animal does it for you.

Yes, it is a food additive, it evidently absorbs extra water in food,
cosmetics and medicines.  It just isn't on the condiment shelf in my wife's
kitchen!  It is also put on tobacco, and used in 'smokeless cigarettes',
food wrappers, and other things.

It is considered an 'environmentally safe' coolant for cars, because it
breaks down in sunlight to innocuous stuff.  In open air it breaks down in
24-50 hours or so half life (think of it as if left out in the open, every
2 days have of it dissipates, and of what is left, each 2 days half of what
is left dissipates into the environment), or in a week if in a water/dirt
environment.  If it breaks down in water, it can remove some of the
dissolved oxygen (leading to fish kills and the such).

(I got most of my info from USDA web site and wikipedia.  I also have used
it on a log building to help preserve it (since it absorbs water keeping
down fungus that grows on wood that instigates wood rot, I also dissolved
borax in it as a fungicide too.  Together they are pretty effective.).
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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Dave Cole]

On 12/2/2014 12:07 AM, Jack Coats wrote:
> Yea, Propylene Glycol also is poisonous to dogs and cats (and probably
> people if you drink it straight).  It evidently tastes sweet, but more than
> a tiny bit can be fatal.  So keep your coolant tub covered and clean up
> spills before your shop animal does it for you.
>
> Yes, it is a food additive, it evidently absorbs extra water in food,
> cosmetics and medicines.  It just isn't on the condiment shelf in my wife's
> kitchen!  It is also put on tobacco, and used in 'smokeless cigarettes',
> food wrappers, and other things.
>
> It is considered an 'environmentally safe' coolant for cars, because it
> breaks down in sunlight to innocuous stuff.  In open air it breaks down in
> 24-50 hours or so half life (think of it as if left out in the open, every
> 2 days have of it dissipates, and of what is left, each 2 days half of what
> is left dissipates into the environment), or in a week if in a water/dirt
> environment.  If it breaks down in water, it can remove some of the
> dissolved oxygen (leading to fish kills and the such).
>
> (I got most of my info from USDA web site and wikipedia.  I also have used
> it on a log building to help preserve it (since it absorbs water keeping
> down fungus that grows on wood that instigates wood rot, I also dissolved
> borax in it as a fungicide too.  Together they are pretty effective.).
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RV Antifreeze must be somewhat different as I haven't seen it breakdown 
at all.  Even after years sitting in a coolant tank. Perhaps they 
stabilize it somehow?
The stuff comes that flushes out of the RV water system (in my trailer) 
just makes the water taste nasty until it is well flushed but it beats 
frozen pipes.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - 1.5.2

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 12/02/2014 05:29 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Well, that is a matter of opinion, I guess. It is often easier to
>> revert to old habits instead of learning new tricks. I know because I
>> tend to do that too all too often (boy I feel old now ;-)
>>
> But I'd bet a bottle of your favorite suds you are chasing me, I turned 80 
> almost 2 months back. ;-)

No bets you know you'd lose, that is what I (try to) teach my pupils.
Then, 2^4 years ago you would have beaten me by a factor of 2


>> Speaking for my self, I just got fed up with plain gcode's archaics and
>> wanted more structure.
> 
> GCodes available loop capabilities can be used for that structure fairly 
> easily. When I am hand carving such code, making use of those to do step & 
> repeat can shrink the code drastically.

Don't get me wrong, gcode is expressive enough and can do all you like.
It is just not like any "modern" procedural language. For me, that makes
all the difference between readable and a hellish write-only language
(let's not talk about Perl, shall we ;-)

One should use the language that is familiar and does the job. That is a
personal choice.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 12/1/2014 8:13 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 12/01/2014 11:55 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
>> But things got better after the FDA, and the FDA approved
>> products were safe. Right? The list of unsafe drugs
>> approved by the FDA would fill an encyclopedia. Here is
>> but one gruesome example.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Birth_defects_crisis

> The FDA never approved use of Thalidomide in the US.
> Practically all
> US cases of birth defects from it were from mothers who were in
> Europe when it was in widespread use.

It's been re-approved in some places but only for use after the first 
trimester. I've also read some theory that rather than causing the 
undeveloped limbs it prevented natural miscarriages of deformed fetuses.

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Re: [Emc-users] Coolant filtering

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 12/1/2014 10:33 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

> RV Antifreeze must be somewhat different as I haven't seen it breakdown
> at all.  Even after years sitting in a coolant tank. Perhaps they
> stabilize it somehow?
> The stuff comes that flushes out of the RV water system (in my trailer)
> just makes the water taste nasty until it is well flushed but it beats
> frozen pipes.

Easier to connect an air hose to the drain valve on the RV's water 
heater then open each faucet in turn, starting with closest to the 
heater. Don't forget to also have someone hold down the foot pedal on 
the loo.

Finish by opening all faucets and step on the loo pedal. Always seems to 
get a bit more water out. Dump some antifreeze in the sink traps, just 
to keep any holding tank smells out.

No water in the system to freeze and no need to flush the antifreeze out 
in the spring.


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