Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
I am leaving the previous message below. It does not look like it went also to the list. Otherwise, excuse me. Yes, the new 2 or 3 ply will be Z twist and if I understand correctly, you would be working entirely with with the new Z twist thread. So, just wind the bobbins the opposite way. (Think about what has happened in the past when you were daydreaming, or something, and wound a bobbin 'the wrong way' accidenetally. In this case, the 'wrong' way would become the 'right' way.) Blanche In thawing Minneapolis. Dnia Wtorek, 11 Marca 2014 15:19 lynrbai...@desupernet.net napisa³(a) Dear Blanche et al, I hadn't thought of that, but it's a great idea. One problem I see. The Bockens thread is S twist, so I would have to ply with a Z twist. There have been discussions about the problems with Z twist and lacemaking. Would that be a problem, or would the essential S twist of the plies deal with that? While I have a wheel, I have only spun Newfoundland hair, so I don't know. Blanche wrote: Regarding doubling and trebling threads: I would get my spinning wheel out and ply the two or three together. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Hi Lyn If you're looking to double a thread, do you go to something that is double the desired thread in wraps and double it? 80/2 Bockens is 28 wraps, so that doubled it would be 14. I realize that the best thing is to try it out, but I'd much rather stack the odds toward succeeding in the first try. Also, will doubled gimp work? When you say 'double the thread' do you mean that you have doubled the size of the pattern? Does that mean enlarged by 200%? or doubled the area (enlarged by 141%)? Whatever you have done, or plan to do, look at new size pricking and measure the distance between the foot-edge pins. Then look at the table at http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html or page 8 in Threads for Lace Ed 5. and from that work out the ideal wraps/cm size. The size of a gimp is equivalent to least four strands, and preferably six strands of the main thread. Translated to w/cm the gimp should be main thread w/cm divided by 2.5. Two strands of any thread which measures 28 w/cm will *not* work out as 14 w/cm - because to increase from 28w/cm to 14 w/cm you need to double the diameter of the thread, using a thread doubled only increases the (average) area of the cross section, although two threads wrapped together won't interlock fully to form a rounded thread and so the resulting w/cm measurement will be a lower number than theory would predict. Brenda in Allhallows www.brendapaternoster.co.uk - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Dear Brenda, Thank you so much for your response, which is packed with information. The way the Svenska Spetstar works, they sell the prickings. This particular pattern pricking is sold in 2 sizes. The larger pricking calls for 25/3 Bockens with 18/5 for the gimp, which is why I am using those threads as the basis for doubling. Thus the 25/3, has 14 wraps and presumably is the desired wraps for the thread being used. However, it may be that ideally a thicker gimp should be used, but 18/5 is the thickest Bockens thread, so that is the choice. By your calculations the w/cm for the gimp should be about 5.6, instead of the 9 wraps of 18/5. Do I take it from your last paragraph that, hypothetically speaking, when you use 2 threads together, each being 28 w/cm, the resulting combination will more likely yield closer to 13 or 12 w/cm, instead of the expected 14 w/cm? And, to totally confuse things, how about using a strand of one size thread with a strand of a slightly different sized thread? Or am I just getting wacky? Lyn from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where this is the last nice day for a bit. Tomorrow the thermometer is expected to drop 40 degrees F. Rain, thunderstorms, maybe cats and dogs. Brenda wrote: When you say 'double the thread' do you mean that you have doubled the size of the pattern? Does that mean enlarged by 200%? or doubled the area (enlarged by 141%)? Whatever you have done, or plan to do, look at new size pricking and measure the distance between the foot-edge pins. Then look at the table at http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html or page 8 in Threads for Lace Ed 5. and from that work out the ideal wraps/cm size. The size of a gimp is equivalent to least four strands, and preferably six strands of the main thread. Translated to w/cm the gimp should be main thread w/cm divided by 2.5. Two strands of any thread which measures 28 w/cm will *not* work out as 14 w/cm - because to increase from 28w/cm to 14 w/cm you need to double the diameter of the thread, using a thread doubled only increases the (average) area of the cross section, although two threads wrapped together won't interlock fully to form a rounded thread and so the resulting w/cm measurement will be a lower number than theory would predict. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Most times when people use a thread doubled for BL they don't ply it, but just wind two threads onto each bobbin, which isn't really ideal though. If you did ply two strands of a 3S thread together it would become 3S/2Z, a cabled or double spun thread which would be firm and round - not dissimilar to the Cordonnet/tatting cottons which are usually 2Z/3Z. Some people dislike working with Z twist threads, others have no problem with them. Brenda On 11 Mar 2014, at 20:56, B Krbechek wrote: One problem I see. The Bockens thread is S twist, so I would have to ply with a Z twist. There have been discussions about the problems with Z twist and lacemaking. Would that be a problem, or would the essential S twist of the plies deal with that? Brenda in Allhallows www.brendapaternoster.co.uk - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
This doubling of a thread is much more complicated than I first imagined. One uses double yarn in knitting frequently, and it all works out well, usually. In this project there are all sorts of variables. The shape of the thread, the actual diameter of 2 threads together as opposed to a single thread. Plying on a spinning wheel raises the issue of a Z twisted thread as opposed to the much more common, and evidently easier to use, S twist. It seems clear that it's time to make a swatch, and see what works best. Problem is, when you're knitting a swatch, you're not winding 45 pairs. lrb Devon wrote: I have never tried this doubling process, but my first thought is that there might be a significant difference in effect between a three ply thread for which a cross section would be round, and two round threads sitting next to each other for which a cross section would be more like a rectangle with a width the size of twice the diameter of the original thread, and the height one time the diameter. Interesting question. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Hello Lyn and everyone You raise another interesting point - comparing yarn doubled in knitting. The basic knitted structure is one strand, whether single, double, or more, interlooping, which differs from bobbin lace, two strands crossing each other - and I use the term 'cross' in the usual dictionary meaning, not necessarily 'left over right.' My free advice if you possibly can, is to find a thicker thread for the gimp in this case, for visual as well as structural balance. In a fine point ground lace, thinking of Bayeux, the gimp threads are made of 6 or more strands of the main thread. They lie flat, are not meant to be plied around each other, and the gimp path permits threads to be carried along when not needed in the body of the lace. Probably not noticeable from several feet away, whereas your altar cloth will be seen, if not up close, at least likely well-lit. Just some thoughts. On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Lyn Bailey lynrbai...@desupernet.netwrote: This doubling of a thread is much more complicated than I first imagined. One uses double yarn in knitting frequently, and it all works out well, usually. Devon wrote: I have never tried this doubling process, but my first thought is that there might be a significant difference in effect between a three ply thread for which a cross section would be round, and two round threads sitting next to each other for which a cross section would be more like a rectangle with a width the size of twice the diameter of the original thread, and the height one time the diameter. Interesting question. -- Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Is it just the gimp you are doubling, or the main thread as well? I got confused! Sue suebabbs...@gmail.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] altar cloth doubled thread question
Dear Bev, I'm not sure I agree with you about the difference between knitting and bobbin lace, as both have threads that go over each other, but I suspect that it is because knitting is much more elastic, and therefore the threads would act differently. I think we can both agree completely that knitting does not work like bobbin lace. I agree, that if the gimp was chosen only because it is the biggest single thread, even though it is not big enough for the usual proportion, a larger gimp should be sought. This is excellent feedback. Thanks. lrb Bev Walker wrote: You raise another interesting point - comparing yarn doubled in knitting. The basic knitted structure is one strand, whether single, double, or more, interlooping, which differs from bobbin lace, two strands crossing each other - and I use the term 'cross' in the usual dictionary meaning, not necessarily 'left over right.' My free advice if you possibly can, is to find a thicker thread for the gimp in this case, for visual as well as structural balance. In a fine point ground lace, thinking of Bayeux, the gimp threads are made of 6 or more strands of the main thread. They lie flat, are not meant to be plied around each other, and the gimp path permits threads to be carried along when not needed in the body of the lace. Probably not noticeable from several feet away, whereas your altar cloth will be seen, if not up close, at least likely well-lit. /walker.b e...@gmail.com My email sends out an automatic message. Arachne members, please ignore it. I read your emails. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Needlelace Book.
I have just heard from Catherine Barley who tells me her book is now available - Order at her web site. I think she is perhaps a bit shy for letting you all know, but her self-published book looks great - according to the picture I have seen. Postage might be the worst part as it is costly - like everywhere else, these days -- and the post offices wonder why we are not sending letters and parcels so much these days!! Anyway The Book has the same lovely Strawberries on the cover. I am so glad that has stayed the same!! Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz.. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
