Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
I am a classically trained musician (guitar, trumpet, flute, other misc.) so I read music very well. I'm still very much new to lacemaking, but to make a relatively simple analogy - the pattern could easily be considered a score, and the various stitches required to make the various parts of the lace compared to the different values of notes, the number of stitches a form of subdivision? I would also certainly argue that music making does require numeracy, especially reading music, but over time the math required to understand how to make music becomes deeply internalized and you don't generally consciously think about it. There are of course exceptions in exceptionally complex music, or music in an odd time signature, polyrhythmic music etc. Though outside of classical music, once you reach a certain level of mastery even these super complex forms are really felt more than rigorously counted. I would imagine this is the same with lacemaking? On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi < shg...@mail.harvard.edu> wrote: > I will raise my hand about music-making and needlework. I play Bach on a > string instrument, and to my mind, the patterns that make sense when > sight-reading musical counterpoint make the same intuitive rhythms in my > mind (internal ear? mind's eye?) as the growing symmetries and dissonances > of lace when looked at up close. > > I *also* have brain-based math learning disabilities, along with some other > neural challenges. Somehow reading non-syllabic writing systems are easy > for me, but numeracy demands some other cognitive effort. > > To be precise, then, I would say that the part of music-making, sight > reading counterpoint, being able to make sense of knitting and lace > notation, has to do with comfort with discrete intervals in relation to one > another -- nothing to do with numeracy as such. > > Hmmm I wonder if I agree with myself. Does numeracy -- that is, being able > to manipulate numbers -- include being able to slice intervals into smaller > bits? I'm thinking of how musicians think about note-value, that is, the > duration of each note, that is, a quarter note is one beat in 4/4 time, a > dotted quarter note is one and a half note, etc. > > If you are following me so far, what in lace making would correspond to > being able to execute note values in music-making? > > On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:18 AM, David C Collyer > wrote: > > > G'day Nancy, > > > > It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members > of > > IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career > > field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily > > self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats > > > > Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as > > ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just > have > > a feeling that many of us do. > > David in Ballarat, AUS > > > > - > > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: > > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to > > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/ > > > > - > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/ > -- Amy Mills amymills.net 3473430956 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
I will raise my hand about music-making and needlework. I play Bach on a string instrument, and to my mind, the patterns that make sense when sight-reading musical counterpoint make the same intuitive rhythms in my mind (internal ear? mind's eye?) as the growing symmetries and dissonances of lace when looked at up close. I *also* have brain-based math learning disabilities, along with some other neural challenges. Somehow reading non-syllabic writing systems are easy for me, but numeracy demands some other cognitive effort. To be precise, then, I would say that the part of music-making, sight reading counterpoint, being able to make sense of knitting and lace notation, has to do with comfort with discrete intervals in relation to one another -- nothing to do with numeracy as such. Hmmm I wonder if I agree with myself. Does numeracy -- that is, being able to manipulate numbers -- include being able to slice intervals into smaller bits? I'm thinking of how musicians think about note-value, that is, the duration of each note, that is, a quarter note is one beat in 4/4 time, a dotted quarter note is one and a half note, etc. If you are following me so far, what in lace making would correspond to being able to execute note values in music-making? On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:18 AM, David C Collyer wrote: > G'day Nancy, > > It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of > IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career > field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily > self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats > > Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as > ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just have > a feeling that many of us do. > David in Ballarat, AUS > > - > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/ > - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
G'day Nancy, It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats Along with that I think it would be interesting to include such things as ability to read music, play an instrument, sing in a choir etc. I just have a feeling that many of us do. David in Ballarat, AUS - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
I'm not 100 percent convinced of a math/engineering link with bobbin lace. First of all, I noticed years ago a lot of other sciences in lacemaking--biology (my field), chemistry, psychology, etc. Also science fiction fanatics who never went into science (or math, computers, etc.). I think of it more as "inquiring minds" and "puzzle solvers" than a particular field of study. The only rocket scientist I've met is a quilter, with no interest in bobbin lace. Second, I consider myself strongly right-brained, although I have enough left-brain function to not be "out in left field" like a few severely right-brained individuals I've known. Don't give me a verbal description of what you want me to know, the words get totally in the way of my understanding. Give me a map or a flow chart and I've got it in a second. I believe any field of information has an underlying logic structure; if you see that structure the field is easy for you, if you don't see it you have to really work at getting the hang of it. I failed miserably the section of chemistry on enzyme kinetics, I could not solve a single equation, although I could follow any demonstrations and see why the did what they did. I've met people who can not "get" basic probability, no matter how many people tried to help them. When I first met bobbin lace (torchon) it was so logical I picked it right up. To me it's all about finding paths, which to me is mapmaking and spatial ! relations = right-brain functions rather than math and logic which are left-brain functions. I second the suggestion that someone (not me) do a survey of lacemakers with STEM interest and/or training (not everyone who's fascinated with geology gets a geology degree) as well as other fields of endeavor. The results would be most fascinating. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com Parvum leve mentes capiunt (Little things amuse little minds) - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
Hi Elena, It would be interesting to do a survey of the bobbin-lacemaking members of IOLI about area of education, highest degree obtained and when, career field, types of bobbin lace specialized in, maybe things like primarily self-taught or not, others?, and compare the stats from that to stats from the Dept of Labor and other US government agencies for a comparable population (age distribution, income perhaps, etc.) I realize this would be US-centric, but I'm not sure if OIDFA membership would be as representative a sample. Statistical analysis would be relatively straightforward once one figured out to discretize and categorize the data--the devil is in the details of the latter task! If you do it, my unsolicited advice is to frame lots of hypotheses first and work really hard on getting the survey questionnaire right relative to those hypotheses. I hope you pursue it!! Nancy Connecticut, USA On Sat, May 19, 2018, 22:20 Elena wrote ...considered researching it further for a possible article topic... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
Hello all, The seemingly natural attraction of those in the STEM field to lacemaking has fascinated me for some time. I remember attending Ithaca Lace Day a couple of years ago and after repeatedly hearing that so-and-so was a mathematician or scientist, and I was intrigued by the connection. My explanation for bobbin lace structure to the uninitiated is that it's like a circuit board - you have figure out how to connect pairs of bobbins across your pillow. I think this is a fertile subject and have personally considered researching it further for a possible article topic. Best, Elena - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
A few observations: First there were indeed computer engineers who were lacemakers in the 1980s. I started programming in the mid-1960s (well before PCs or Macs or the Internet), and I was mesmerized by making bobbin lace from the first time I saw it done in the mid-1980s. For the first several years, I taught myself from books, Torchon, Bucks, and a little tape lace to start, later Flanders and Binche. Bobbin lace has always made intuitive sense to me. This much is entirely anecdotal, but when I'm working on a difficult piece of lace, especially Binche, it feels the same in my head as when I'm designing an algorithm or working out how to code one as a software engineer. I can't explain it any better than that, certainly I can't really describe what it "feels" like, but I do know that software design and bobbin lacemaking feel the same to me, and not like anything else. (Including not needlelace or tatting or any other kind of lacemaking.) Finally, I do think there is some mathematical basis for my subjective experience. Back in 2002 I heard in a computer science seminar a passing reference to a branch of topology (a type of mathematics) called braid theory, citing it as a possible mechanism for information storage and retrieval. More exciting to me, I recognized cross and twist in the diagrams shown briefly in the seminar. Braid theory statements and bobbin lace are mathematically equivalent. Look up braid theory in Wikipedia. Also do a search on Veronika Irvine on the Web (tesselace.com). She published a paper in 2014, and subsequently did a PhD dissertation, on this equivalence, including generating new bobbin lace grounds by computer. Now I agree with Adele, that all this is not saying that only maths whizzes can do bobbin lace, but I do think there are a suspiciously high proportion of math and computer science types in the lacemaking world. Also, self-reporting of an inability to do math and computer science is suspect to me. It's nerdy and not cool to be good in those fields, but humans have an innate mathematical ability just like we have language ability, and little kids take to programming and algorithm development like ducks to water. (That metaphor is deliberately chosen.) So in summary, I firmly believe that there is a relationship there, based both on personal subjective experience and on recent technical developments. Nancy Connecticut, USA On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:55 Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi wrote: > ...some of the > finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes > intuitive sense... > ...Knowing something about > math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you)... > - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
It seems to me that lacemaking provides many things to many people. Small children can learn simple Torchon patterns quite easily. Adults with no particular math skills may make lace their whole lives without ever finding a need to go dig out their trig tables (yes, I know that dates me, but you know what I mean). However lacemaking is the only craft I’ve every participated in where, at the advanced levels, I keep running into engineers and math whizzes and rocket scientists. Honestly! Rocket scientists! Well, I suppose they have to do something with their spare time. My anecdote about this, is a lacemaker I know, a math whiz. Many people have problems with the Flanders ground, and for various reasons Flanders is often considered advanced. She asked “what is Flanders Ground”, took one look at a picture, said “right you are” and proceeded to start making perfect Flanders. I think it is that intuitive understanding that leads these people into lacemaking and makes the more complex laces more desirable for them. Now, before everybody goes ballistic - I am not saying that you can’t make Flanders or Binche or any other of the more advanced laces if you don’t have good math skills. I’m just saying that people who do have good math skills may be drawn to that type of lace. Adele West Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada)' 18, at 9:50 AM, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi wrote: > > Friends > > Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the > finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes > intuitive sense. > I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than > superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or > observations that would be good to know about? > > I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as > well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what > appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about > math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an > interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are > coded as masculine activities. > > (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
Re: [lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
Marjory Carter, who I mentioned as my Bucks point tutor, had been a maths teacher in a grammar school, until she retired. She learned her lace from a lady with whom she lodged when she was training as a teacher. I started to take courses with her in 1980, so I guess she would have retired in 1975 after 40years of teaching. These dates are guesses, but cannot be far out, I hope. Sent from my iPad > On 19 May 2018, at 17:50, Sharon Ghamari-Tabrizi > wrote: > > Friends > > Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the > finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes > intuitive sense. > I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than > superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or > observations that would be good to know about? > > I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as > well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what > appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about > math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an > interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are > coded as masculine activities. > > (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math > and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.) > > Sharon > > - > To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: > unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to > arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
I have heard this mentioned before too that many lacemakers are in these fields. I, myself, have a Mathmatics degree and worked as a software engineer for 20+ years. However, I really don’t think my math skills have anything to do with my ability to make lace. I sorely lack in artistic skills (the other side of the brain) and greatly admire the lacemakers who are also designers. Yes, I can implement their designs (Binche is my favorite) with adequate instruction. I think if you replace “engineer” and “mathematician” with other professions you will also find many lacemakers that fit those categories as well. People also say math folks are good with music not me! Anita Hansen Cedar Rapids, Iowa - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] mathematicians, IT engineers and lacemaking
Friends Both Devon and Alex Stillwell have pointed out to me that some of the finest lacemakers are mathematicians and computer engineers. It makes intuitive sense. I have a math learning disability so I wouldn't be able to follow more than superficially, but allowing for that, does anyone have any anecdotes or observations that would be good to know about? I ought to mention that poor old Bobby is endlessly queried -- tacitly as well as openly -- if he is gay. One of the themes I am exploring is what appears to be the problem of Bobby's masculinity. Knowing something about math/IT lacemakers (if there were in the 1980s, mind you), would be an interesting wrinkle since in the United States, math and computers are coded as masculine activities. (The latter is not a universal gender-category. In Iran, for example, math and engineering are distinctly *not* coded as masculine.) Sharon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/