Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Jon Tan]

Derek Featherstone wrote:

On 5/9/06, Jan Brasna wrote:

early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a failure 
to execute onclick with the keyboard.
I remember something similar, be it an old Safari or some wacky 
Netscape, don't really know. I'd say it's not an active issue anymore.


Jan - agreed, wholeheartedly. However, if we can pinpoint user agent
compliance and/or non-compliance, we can make a much better case for
ignoring some of the outdated guidelines.


Using Safari with user-agent string:

Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/312.b(KHTML, 
like Gecko)Safari/312.6


No event is triggered by tabbing to a link with the onkeypress paired 
with an onclick event handler in Al's test page. Behavior consistent 
with that expected of an onblur event occurs. For example in Al's test 
page when 'test this link' loses focus, the content is revealed /not/, 
as should be the case, when a key is pressed with the link having focus.


[Mac OSX 10.2.9 / Safari 1.3.2(v312.6)]

-Jon



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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On May 10, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Al Sparber wrote:


Test this page for yourself:
http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/


Safari 1.0x (v85.x.x) fails this: there is simply no way to access  
links with the keyboard.
This has been corrected (by way of a user pref) in Safari 1.1 (not  
available to OS X 10.2 Jaguar, if memory serves).


iCab 3.0 does not offer keyboard access to links (via tab key).

onclick event: fails in IE Mac


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh




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Re: [WSG] duplicate id

[Kevin Futter]

Title: Re: [WSG] duplicate id



On 10/5/06 9:45 AM, "shawn cassick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

i am currently recoding a page from sloppy html to xhtml 1.0 strict, my question is, how can i get around the span duplicate id defined, as i use css to define a border around the title text, yes i thought of using h1, b, etc. and relating the css to those tags, but the titles are to have pretty much the same properties as the main text.  long story short does anyone have an idea of how to get around it, i am currently at school right now but any responses would be nice, i have thought of using a div tag instead of a span and making the width auto, but still... 
 
 
 
thanks guys
 
Shawn Cassick
Lead Designer - Bumlabs.com  


I’m not sure I fully understand your question, but can’t you just use a class instead of an ID where the same style needs to be applied to multiple elements?

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

RE: [WSG] duplicate id

[Peter Williams]

From: shawn cassick
>   
> how can i get around the span duplicate id defined,
> as i use css to define a border around the title text,
> i have thought of using a div tag instead of a span

Your question is somewhat ambiguous, but if you need to style
an element repeatedly on a page you should use a class, not
an id.

CSS
.prettything {styles;}

Markup
Pretty stuff 

With a class defined using just the dot nomenclature you
could use it on any element you need to.

Pretty div
Pretty paragraph
and so on.

--
Peter Williams
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RE: [WSG] duplicate id

[Ted Drake]

Don’t base your markup decisions on how the final product looks. Base your
markup decisions on what the content is and should be.
So, if the title test is the title of the page, it should be marked up with
a header tag. Placing it in a span, div, p, etc is not giving it the
structural and semantic value it deserves.

Spans should be used conservatively. You should think twice, maybe three
times before using on. They aren’t bad, just easily abused. Look for a more
structural/semantic option first.

Use a div if it is a block, use a span if it sits within another element,
like a link or paragraph.

If you find yourself needing to use an id twice, it’s time to re-evaluate
what you are doing or use a class instead.

Ted
http://www.last-child.com   


From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of shawn cassick
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] duplicate id

i am currently recoding a page from sloppy html to xhtml 1.0 strict, my
question is, how can i get around the span duplicate id defined, as i use
css to define a border around the title text, yes i thought of using h1, b,
etc. and relating the css to those tags, but the titles are to have pretty
much the same properties as the main text.  long story short does anyone
have an idea of how to get around it, i am currently at school right now but
any responses would be nice, i have thought of using a div tag instead of a
span and making the width auto, but still... 
 
 
 
thanks guys
 
Shawn Cassick
Lead Designer - Bumlabs.com

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Re: [WSG] duplicate id

[Lachlan Hunt]

shawn cassick wrote:

i am currently recoding a page from sloppy html to xhtml 1.0 strict,


Why XHTML?  Search the archives for previous discussion on the topic.


my question is, how can i get around the span duplicate id defined,


Use a class name instead of an id.


as i use css to define a border around the title text, yes i thought of using 
h1, b,
etc. and relating the css to those tags, but the titles are to have pretty
much the same properties as the main text.


That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Use the correct semantic 
markup for titles and headings (h1 to h6, as appropriate) and then use 
stylesheets to style them in any way you want.



i have thought of using a div tag instead of a span and making the width auto,


Don't use either if you can avoid it, always use appropriate semantic 
markup.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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[WSG] duplicate id

[shawn cassick]

i am currently recoding a page from sloppy html to xhtml 1.0 strict, my question is, how can i get around the span duplicate id defined, as i use css to define a border around the title text, yes i thought of using h1, b, etc. and relating the css to those tags, but the titles are to have pretty much the same properties as the main text.  long story short does anyone have an idea of how to get around it, i am currently at school right now but any responses would be nice, i have thought of using a div tag instead of a span and making the width auto, but still...

 
 
 
thanks guys
 
Shawn Cassick
Lead Designer - Bumlabs.com

Re: [WSG] Copyright Question

[Kevin Futter]

On 9/5/06 5:21 PM, "Lachlan Hunt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> marvin hunkin wrote:
>> now just wondering with the relaxation of laws,  that will make it legal
>> for us to in our own private homes, able to tape tv shows, from video,
>> and dvd, and able to convert music in any format, to listen to.
> 
> This is very much off-topic for this list, but which laws are you
> talking about and when were they relaxed?
> 
>> if i did put them on a server, even though the tracks are 17 to 26
>> years old, why would i have to pay royalties to the copyright holders,
> 
> Because the duration of copyright in Australia is currently 70 years (I
> think). 

Off-topic for sure, but my understanding suggests that copyright persists
for 70 years *after the death of the author/composer*. So, it's author's
lifetime + 70 years. It's more complicated than that of course (the results
of collective endeavours like films for example, are seriously more
complicated), but that's the general rule. The only significant change that
I'm aware of is the extension to 70 years from 50, to fall in line with US
practice.

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/



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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Derek Featherstone]

On 5/9/06, Jan Brasna wrote:

>> early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a failure 
>> to execute onclick with the keyboard.
>
>I remember something similar, be it an old Safari or some wacky 
>Netscape, don't really know. I'd say it's not an active issue anymore.

Jan - agreed, wholeheartedly. However, if we can pinpoint user agent
compliance and/or non-compliance, we can make a much better case for
ignoring some of the outdated guidelines.

Cheers,
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com
Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Jan Brasna]

early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a failure 
to execute onclick with the keyboard.


I remember something similar, be it an old Safari or some wacky 
Netscape, don't really know. I'd say it's not an active issue anymore.


--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net
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Re: [WSG] Ultimate 2 columns' requirements

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Stevio wrote:

[...]



Is this possible?


Partially...



...with IE/win a little behind - as usual.
CSS in page-head. Check Roger's site (linked in) for details.

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Ultimate 2 columns' requirements

[Carolyn Diaz]

Take a look at http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm. Although css is NOT the solution, It is one option you could use.
To use css, check out http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/.Both methods present very interesting challenges.Carolyn
On 5/9/06, Stevio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone got a solution to 2 column layout using css that does thefollowing:- 2 columns.- columns stay equal height, even though either column could have morecontent and be longer.- right column does not drop below left column as width of browser is
shrunk. The horizontal scrollbar should appear rather than this happening.- ability to vertically align either column to top, middle or bottom.- width of columns should be able to set to a fixed size or a percentage.
- container width of columns should be able to set to a fixed size or apercentage.- works in IE6.- content below does not overlap (clears properly).Is this possible?Thanks,Stephen
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[WSG] Ultimate 2 columns' requirements

[Stevio]

Has anyone got a solution to 2 column layout using css that does the 
following:


- 2 columns.
- columns stay equal height, even though either column could have more 
content and be longer.
- right column does not drop below left column as width of browser is 
shrunk. The horizontal scrollbar should appear rather than this happening.

- ability to vertically align either column to top, middle or bottom.
- width of columns should be able to set to a fixed size or a percentage.
- container width of columns should be able to set to a fixed size or a 
percentage.

- works in IE6.
- content below does not overlap (clears properly).

Is this possible?

Thanks,
Stephen 


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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Al Sparber]

From: "Derek Featherstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Test this page for yourself:
http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/



Thanks for the test case, Al... that wasn't my point though. I was
looking for documented cases where Safari didn't work with onclick. 
I
*know* that it works just fine with my current version of Safari. 
I'm

looking for history that shows where it didn't in the past.


Ah. We upgraded all of our Macs to Panther and Tiger, but, if memory 
serves, early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a 
failure to execute onclick with the keyboard. 



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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Derek Featherstone]

On 5/9/06, Al Sparber wrote:

>Test this page for yourself:
>http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/

Thanks for the test case, Al... that wasn't my point though. I was
looking for documented cases where Safari didn't work with onclick. I
*know* that it works just fine with my current version of Safari. I'm
looking for history that shows where it didn't in the past.

Cheers,
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com
Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Al Sparber]

From: "Derek Featherstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Test this page for yourself:
http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".





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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Patrick - I just want to clarify this piece of information here. Is
there a specific version of Safari that does this, or do you have
documented test cases? I've got scripts that respond without fail to the
onclick in Safari, so I'd like to try and delve a little deeper.

I'm running the latest version of Safari 2.0.3


Sorry, my reply was based on a bit of research that I never got around to
collating properly carried out over a year ago. It's well possible that
more current versions of Saf finally fire onclick even following keyboard
activation, which then makes this point fairly moot (unless you need to
support older versions of Safari, of course)

Will fire up my BrowserCam remote access and double-triple-check tonight.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Derek Featherstone]

On 5/9/06, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

>Safari does indeed seem to be the only current web browser which
>doesn't generate an onclick event via the keyboard - anything else
>treats a keyboard activation (e.g. hitting enter when the focus is on
>a link, for instance) as onclick.

Patrick - I just want to clarify this piece of information here. Is
there a specific version of Safari that does this, or do you have
documented test cases? I've got scripts that respond without fail to the
onclick in Safari, so I'd like to try and delve a little deeper.

I'm running the latest version of Safari 2.0.3

Cheers,
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com
Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Al Sparber]

From: "Katrina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I am currently reading a book called 'DOM Scripting' by Jeremy 
Keith. In it, the author suggests not to use onKeyPress as it can 
lead to accessibility issues when users are tabbing past those 
elements with that eventHandler.


I would (and do) avoid onKeyPress. Most people I observe using it, do 
so because they have onclick events embedded and when they run the 
page through an automated accessibility checker it throws an error :-) 
As you've gathered, onkeypress wreaks havoc with people's expectations 
when using the tab key. In 99% of the browsers on the market, the 
Enter key will fire an onclick. In some modern browsers, onkeypress 
will prevent the Enter key from behaving as one would expect it.


--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".





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[WSG] when flash meets js - overlapping bug for Opera Mac only?

[郑玉萍(Tee G. Peng)]

Greetings,

I was helping someone for his 'flash meets js' overlapping problem and
has discovered something very odd in Opera Mac.

This is his page, that the flash over overlapping the image - click
the thumbnail to see the result.
http://scoutphotographics.com.au/draft20.htm

I solved the problem by declaring z-index for the div that holds the
flash, and higher z-indexes for divs that hold the thumbnails and the
large image. Everything works on PC and Mac except in Opera Mac, which
the flash still stay on top of the image.
Please see the page here:
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/lb/lb.html
(Please ignore validation errors as this is just a test page that I
copied from the guy' page)

I made screen shots for various browsers and you can check them out by
clicking links on the left from the page. As you can clearly see, the
only browser that doesn't behave is Opera Mac.

I thought maybe it's something wrong with the guy' CSS but couldn't
pinpoint the problem. Googled for answer, and I found the exact same
'bug' occurs on this page:

http://www.communitymx.com/content/source/E5141/wmodetrans.htm
According to the author, the bouncing ball is supposed to stay behinds
the DHTML layer, instead, it stays on top.
I made two screen shots for it on Opera Mac and PC and you can view them here:
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/lb/opera_mac.png
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/lb/opera_pc.png

Any idea how to fix it?

Thanks!

tee
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Re: [WSG] Horizontal Dropdowns - again :(

[Nick Cowie]

VeineWorks fine in IE6 on W2K as long as your _javascript_ is enabled.Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com

Re: [WSG] Copyright Question

[Lachlan Hunt]

marvin hunkin wrote:

now just wondering with the relaxation of laws,  that will make it legal
for us to in our own private homes, able to tape tv shows, from video, 
and dvd, and able to convert music in any format, to listen to.


This is very much off-topic for this list, but which laws are you 
talking about and when were they relaxed?


if i did put them on a server, even though the tracks are 17 to 26 
years old, why would i have to pay royalties to the copyright holders, 


Because the duration of copyright in Australia is currently 70 years (I 
think).  So the copyright of a track released in 1980 won't be released 
until 2050, at which time I believe it goes into the public domain.  Of 
course, that's assuming the duration of copyright won't be retroactively 
increased at some point in the future, as it has been in the past.


1. what would happen, if i did pay copyright or royalties, then would  i 
be able to say make my site into a business, and charge for downloads?


I expect you would have to come to some agreement with the copyright 
holders and very likely sign some form of contract.



2. how would i do that, in a legal way, to cover my self?


This is most definitely the wrong place to ask such a question since it 
has absolutely nothing to do with web standards.  You should contact the 
companies directly and work out some arrangement with them.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Katrina wrote:

I am currently reading a book called 'DOM Scripting' by Jeremy Keith. In 
it, the author suggests not to use onKeyPress as it can lead to 
accessibility issues when users are tabbing past those elements with 
that eventHandler.


But at the same time it remains recommended to add both.

HTML Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#directly-accessible-scripts.


The problem is that onkeypress is not a direct equivalent of onclick. 
The proper, device independent handler would be onactivate (which, if I 
remember correctly, is part of the DOM events, but not part of the HTML 
spec and only supported in IE, of all browsers).



Suggests that tabbing through may cause accessibility issues
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=BAC0AC1F-FFCB-6022-5ECD34D2CF16F906 


Yup, that's correct. In principle, it seems right that even hitting TAB 
should trigger an onkeypress...it's a key, after all; however, this 
cause issues as noted.


Suggests writing a function that tests for TABbing because Mac browsers 
don't treat onClick in a device independent way.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=BAC115E5-AA7E-1E4F-82E6DE89F699ED80 


Safari does indeed seem to be the only current web browser which doesn't 
generate an onclick event via the keyboard - anything else treats a 
keyboard activation (e.g. hitting enter when the focus is on a link, for 
instance) as onclick.


> Is the recommendation to use onKeyPress and testing for certain keys
> to prevent the TAB activating some onKeyPress code?

So, to accommodate Safari, you should consider using a custom function 
that only gets triggered if the user has hit enter etc (i.e. not 
indiscriminately firing for every keypress).


Another technique (if you're applying this to links) could be to 
programmatically change the href to a javascript pseduo-protocol via the 
DOM on page load...this will then be fired when the link is activated, 
no matter how (mouse, keyboard, etc). Purists will frown at this 
(although I myself frown at the need to write our own event handler, 
just because Safari doesn't follow the de-facto standard...even Netscape 
4 triggers onclick via the keyboard, if I remember correctly...so why 
not Safari?)


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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http://webstandards.org/
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