Re: composers style, analysing for
Arto, Da Vinci argued that painting was superior to sculpture on the grounds that sculpture was messy and dirty and involved generally more muscle effort than painting. I have always had a problem with the holy sanctity of human imagination and the composer's all-important intention - these are myths that come down to us from Rousseau and 19th century music publishers who could claim that they are selling you the "real" thing. Lutes are little machines, technologically very advanced devices that involved precise scientific knowledge on the part of their makers. In a very real way, musicians are dependent on the current state of technology and their imagination can be both constrained and liberated by "machines". Finally, the "receivers" of a work of art are not just judges: they are active participants who can profoundly alter the function and purpose of an object. Art is not just in the eye of the beholder, it is the eye of the beholder. That's why I guess Duchamp presented his public with a urinal: so they could transform it into art, without any intervention on his part. Picasso transformed the wannabe-art of Africa into a valuable commodity in the West. Africans just kept on doing what they had being doing all along - at least for a while. Lots of people get paid a lot of money to let you know what you should see and think about when you see a "real" work of art. Some people get paid even more to let you know how much that is worth exactly. Obviously, it is in those people's interest to have you think that this had really nothing to do with the dirt, dust, and excremental fluids generally witnessed in the real world, or the laws of the market. Yet, increasingly, art is made with machines: microphones, digital media, software, TV, etc. Without those machines, you would not be enjoying the latest Hoppy Smith, POD or Herringman CD. Granted a machine is only as intelligent as the person who uses it, but this is no reasopn to debase it like Da Vinci debasing Michelangelo's chisel. So wannabe-art and machines don't belong together. Alain Arto Wikla wrote: >But at the end, I totally agree with James: The only importantant art is >made by men/women! And the reciever is the judge! There just is, and has >been, that much of "wannabe-art" that could easily been produced by >machines, too. The "real thing" - whatever it is or could be? - cannot >be achieved without human makers! > >All the best > >Arto > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
RE: composers style, analysing for
Dear all, James A Stimson wrote: > These composing machines and programs seem able to copy lots of things > about a composer's work, except those things that make the work worthwhile > -- inspiration, individuality, diversity, unexpected charms, grace, > elegance, spirit, etc. Are you really sure? I do not say I disagree, but in communication there is the sender and there is the reciever. This question is philosophically very interesting! And I would certainly not underestimate the reciever - in our case the listener! Who is the one who really makes the art? Is the message really sent by the artist? Or is it produced while reciving by the reciever? To take an analogy from visual arts: If a painting is defined to be painted by Rembrandt, many can see the artistic values. If after a couple of years it is proofed that the painting was not by Rembrandt, the artistic value diminishes - not to speak about the economical value... To me - in music - the claim that some piece is "composed by J.S. Bach" is a kind of red herring (was this the saying?). Every spot of ink by him should be a gem - and to me every spot certainly is not. Well, many are... But at the end, I totally agree with James: The only importantant art is made by men/women! And the reciever is the judge! There just is, and has been, that much of "wannabe-art" that could easily been produced by machines, too. The "real thing" - whatever it is or could be? - cannot be achieved without human makers! All the best Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: universal music data exchange format
Chriostopher, This would seem to be an area where reality has already caught up with science fiction and possibly gone beyond. Alain >It would be cool to >have a data format that would store all of this information and allow printing >in standard or tab notation. You could see the standard notation if you wanted >to get a better sense of the nuances. Also supporting alternate interpretations >with a footnote like feature would be cool. Hmmm ... > >--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >>In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:03:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>Just to set the record straight, my tab format was designed to >>be e-mailable. This was in the days when there was no internet >>(just a limited arpanet) and mail was sent from computer to >>computer via telephones, and mailing binaries was frowned >>upon. Back when there were as many macs as windows boxes, >>and lots of versions of unix (no linux!) and even VMS. >>(Boy, does that make me feel old!) >> >>Maybe an interesting idea to share, but I have intabulated lute music using >>Wayne's TAB format with my PDA and folding keyboard on airplane trays on >>transatlantic flights. Very simple and functional, therefore. >> >>Kenneth >> >>-- >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > > > > >
RE: composers style, analysing for
Dear All: These composing machines and programs seem able to copy lots of things about a composer's work, except those things that make the work worthwhile -- inspiration, individuality, diversity, unexpected charms, grace, elegance, spirit, etc. Cheers, Jim |-+> | | "carlos flores" | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | m> | | || | | 02/19/2005 02:10 | | | PM | | || |-+> >--| | | | To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu | | cc: | | Subject: RE: composers style, analysing for | >--| >Once one knows what 'rifs' and harmonic progressions typify a particular >composers >work, sure, it not hard to set up programs to throw the dice (ala mozarts >game). > >Some composers did in have identifyable rythms and/or rifs; others are more >subtle >in their style. The machines can never imitate Feeling though. Personally, i can never find a piece charming or being touched by it if i don't like Feeling of this piece/creation--no matter how "matematically-correct" it is. A machine cannot transmit a feeling because it has no Awareness. And awareness is the degree of one being's consciousness about its connection to Infinity. I feel that we as creators strive for that--to bring back into life our connection with the Infinite. I know that people with true connection with Infinity (is called fierce innocence) can do just anything, they can take three stones, throw them in the air, and still the stones will fall into a pattern that will cary grace and a touch of the infinite in it. And in a subsurface level, beyound the superficial/artificial, that's what really touches people. I've seen people even often cry when they witness a free gesture of grace and selflessnes, and i know they can cry because they know deep inside of them that they had it all--this grace and innocence, but little by little they neglected it and gave it away in exchange for selfish concern about ego "superiority" and selfpresentation. So they cry for a lost connection. But man, i'm telling you, no machine will bring it back:) If one is stiff, egotistical, cut from every thing, "superiour", they can do all the right calculations of matematical proportions of harmonic progressions, etc, but they can only fool the blind with such 'creations'. _ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: composers style, analysing for
>Once one knows what 'rifs' and harmonic progressions typify a particular >composers >work, sure, it not hard to set up programs to throw the dice (ala mozarts >game). > >Some composers did in have identifyable rythms and/or rifs; others are more >subtle >in their style. The machines can never imitate Feeling though. Personally, i can never find a piece charming or being touched by it if i don't like Feeling of this piece/creation--no matter how "matematically-correct" it is. A machine cannot transmit a feeling because it has no Awareness. And awareness is the degree of one being's consciousness about its connection to Infinity. I feel that we as creators strive for that--to bring back into life our connection with the Infinite. I know that people with true connection with Infinity (is called fierce innocence) can do just anything, they can take three stones, throw them in the air, and still the stones will fall into a pattern that will cary grace and a touch of the infinite in it. And in a subsurface level, beyound the superficial/artificial, that's what really touches people. I've seen people even often cry when they witness a free gesture of grace and selflessnes, and i know they can cry because they know deep inside of them that they had it all--this grace and innocence, but little by little they neglected it and gave it away in exchange for selfish concern about ego "superiority" and selfpresentation. So they cry for a lost connection. But man, i'm telling you, no machine will bring it back:) If one is stiff, egotistical, cut from every thing, "superiour", they can do all the right calculations of matematical proportions of harmonic progressions, etc, but they can only fool the blind with such 'creations'. _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A-Lutes in renaissance italy
Hi all, Thomas Schall wrote: > It is a great experience to have a smaller lute and many pieces which seemed > impossible to play because of large stretches are now well within reach. I > have choosen a 7-course variant to avoid the retuning for certain pieces in > the repertoire which ask for a G as 6th course. In the meantime I even play > Terzi and other later stuff on it. I have quite similiar experience with my 7-course soprano lute in d, 44cm, Wendelio Venere c.1580 made by Timo Kontio in 1997. (Old photos in http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/LutePics/ArtoVenere.jpg and http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/LutePics/VenereDetails.html ) I think the model had only 6 courses, but the bottom c is nice to have. But what is most curious, is that after playing it, let's say half an hour, all the other utes feel SO big and unnatural! And the 44 cm feel so normal. Best wishes Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A-Lutes in renaissance italy
In a message dated 2/19/05 3:07:21 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Could those have been mandolinos? > No, they are cleary 6 course lutes, I have also personally examined these manuscripts. (Biblioteca Nazionale Firenze) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Antwort: left hand thumb to stop bass notes
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Probably Russian Gypsies have very long fingers very long, very dextrous, sticky ones? :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A-Lutes in renaissance italy
Hi Stephan, actually I think the positions are not that far away from each other. My A-Lute was built by David van Edwards. A big "thank you" to him for making this marvelous instrument! It is a great experience to have a smaller lute and many pieces which seemed impossible to play because of large stretches are now well within reach. I have choosen a 7-course variant to avoid the retuning for certain pieces in the repertoire which ask for a G as 6th course. In the meantime I even play Terzi and other later stuff on it. Best wishes Thomas Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2005 23:19 schrieb Stephan Olbertz: > a smaller instrument myself, but not because I think it was "the most > common instrument". Who built yours? > > Regards, -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: universal music data exchange format
Yes, I agree that Wayne's format is very easy to use and perfect for tabbing lute music. Also very portable -- I haven't thought of using a PDA! Tab in general doesn't show when certain voices should start/stop and for that you need to have an understanding of historical counterpoint and the appropriate ficta (and then realize that these rules weren't very standard at all). The need for this knowledge is lessened with standard notation since individual voice durations can be noted. I only say this because it's really important with certain pieces to get the bass notes or inner voices to stop when they're over, especially with intabulations of vocal music. It's one thing to play the tab as written, it's quite another to play it vocally (is this a word?) and the necessary info isn't in the tab. I'm not saying all of this to soapbox or try to educate anybody since most folks on the list know more about this than me! But I do wonder about being stewards of this information for future generations -- and also encouraging the proper perfomance of the music. It would be cool to have a data format that would store all of this information and allow printing in standard or tab notation. You could see the standard notation if you wanted to get a better sense of the nuances. Also supporting alternate interpretations with a footnote like feature would be cool. Hmmm ... --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:03:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Just to set the record straight, my tab format was designed to > be e-mailable. This was in the days when there was no internet > (just a limited arpanet) and mail was sent from computer to > computer via telephones, and mailing binaries was frowned > upon. Back when there were as many macs as windows boxes, > and lots of versions of unix (no linux!) and even VMS. > (Boy, does that make me feel old!) > > Maybe an interesting idea to share, but I have intabulated lute music using > Wayne's TAB format with my PDA and folding keyboard on airplane trays on > transatlantic flights. Very simple and functional, therefore. > > Kenneth > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: universal music data exchange format
In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:03:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just to set the record straight, my tab format was designed to be e-mailable. This was in the days when there was no internet (just a limited arpanet) and mail was sent from computer to computer via telephones, and mailing binaries was frowned upon. Back when there were as many macs as windows boxes, and lots of versions of unix (no linux!) and even VMS. (Boy, does that make me feel old!) Maybe an interesting idea to share, but I have intabulated lute music using Wayne's TAB format with my PDA and folding keyboard on airplane trays on transatlantic flights. Very simple and functional, therefore. Kenneth -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: A-Lutes in renaissance italy
>There was an interesting article by Eric Walter Hill in Early Music a few >years (1993 I think) that addresses the issue of Florentine >manuscripts contining >intabulated "continuo" accompaniments to late 16th and early 17th century >monody. > >If i am not mistaken (I am still in Denver playing Handel and do not have a >copy of the journal here with me) in his study he found the majority of these >intabulations were for a six course lute pitched at A. > >R Savino Could those have been mandolinos? -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
