[LUTE] Tying on the last fret.
Hi all, So I finally got to the point of tying frets on a lute that once had a fixed metal frets and -- what I could have foreseen -- the body extends into where the last one would go. Any solutions for this short of gluing one on? I am thinking about cutting a notch near the end of the teardrop, but that seems extreme. OTOH this whole thing is a bit of a hack job, trying to resurrect a lute that was not much good to begin with, so what is one more hack? Thanx, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tying on the last fret.
Dan, thanks for that. Also thanks to LGS-Europe David, who fells that the notch is not a big deal, that it's what people do. As long as I am getting such good free and alas contradictory (but that is OK -- don't take that the wrong way!) advice, here is something else for which I need input: I have a terrible crack in the top of this thing, which makes a very annoying buzz. I was thinking of removing the filigree from the sound hole to get in fix it, perhaps with the extensible clamp from LMI. I can make a new filigree with the little MAXNC-10 CNC milling machine that I have, but still I'd rather not. The crack is part of the way open so it needs to be clamped shut, I wondered if it is worth trying to set up a jig with suction disks to do it all from the outside. What options does one have in such matters? Thanx, plh At Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:29:49 -0700 (DST), you wrote Serveral of my instruments have a VERY tiny notch at the bowl-neck join to enable one more gut fret. I would definitely not advise notching the bowl, just use a gluon or a quark. One of my favorit dte memories from 1972 was taking a sandcat belt sander to my Papazian lute and removing the raised fingerboard. It was awesome. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Lute Diary
Peg paste? I think that is just what I need. Where can I get some? Another thing is that I often have problems tuning the strings who's pegs are in the most awkward positions. For that problem I have mostly finished constructing a helper from a disk of wood and a guitar string-winder. -plh At Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:29:01 -0700 (DST), you wrote August 4th=2C 2008 Dear Lutenists: Thank you for your responses. I have managed to loosen all the pegs save three and will continue to work at it. I don't think the peg heads are oval=2C although it would be a very slight occurrence and it would be difficult to tell with the peg paste. I used the peg paste because I could not get the peg to tighten at the right note=2C it was as if I did not have enough strength to set the peg in properly. Ideally how often should the Lute be tuned? Ron said he tuned his Lute every day=2C perhaps this would alleviate the consternation around pegs stuck in the wrong key (and it might encourage Lute playing as well). Many Thanks! love=2C Rebecca Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com _ Try Chicktionary=2C a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Choosing Strings
Greetings Lute People, I have written to this group a few times concerning my efforts to resurrect a lute that had been in the closet for many years (no pun intended!). In any case I am having string breakage problems trying to tune up to A440, with the 7 courses on D-G-C-F-A-D-G. In particular, in fact exclusively, the fundamental (I guess that is what it is called) on the 4th course. Yes I am being naughty and putting octaves on 1,2,3, 4, this instrument needing all the resonance it can get. Sorry, John! In any case where can I go for more information about Lute String choices? I can figure out what the tensions will be from engineering references, and compare the ratings on individual strings, but that would only get so far. I remember reading in some message here about on-line calculators, but looking over my saved messages I can't seem to find that one. Thank You, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frets
This thread has been extremely informative to me as a newbie in the process of trying to fret his newly resurrected (I live in hope) lute. I would like to know of some good sources from which to purchase fretting materials, gut and/or nylon. I ordered two gut strings to try from one source but they seem to be taking a very long time in coming. I mean it has been 2 weeks and it is not like they are far away. What are some good sources? (Actually, if it's nylon I suppose I can just go to the bait tackle shop get various weights of fishing line, but I have tried unused solid nylon strings found them very hard to tie. Would the Mace double fretting method [I have diagrams] work with solid nylon?) Thanks, -plh Rhode Island, USA At Sun, 11 May 2008 09:27:15 -0700 (DST), you wrote Thanks Anthony, very good advice! 2008/5/11 Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Lundberg in his Historical Lute Construction says the following. The eight frets on a Renaissance lute are generally arranged so that they descend in diameter towards the body. I would typically use the following diameters: Fret 1 1.00mm Fret 2 0.90mm Fret 3- 0.85mm Fret 4 0,82mm Fret 5- 0.79mm Fret 6- 0.76mm Fret 7- 0.73mm Fret 8- 0.70mm However, gut varies, so don't worry about being really exact. The main points to consider are that the first fret shoudl be large, the second fret should drop considerably in diameter, and each of the rest should be about .03mm smaller than the preceding. If the lute has a very high action, that is, if the height of the strings above the fingerboard at the neck/body join is, for example, in the vicinity of 5mm, then it would be better to tie on frets of a more constant size or even the same size. If on the other hand, the action is low, then a larger 1st fret together with a bigger drop between frets and ending with a .66mm might help. This book is well worth having for its very reasonable price. Regards Anthony Le 11 mai 08 =E0 05:17, Bruno Correia a ecrit : With so many gauges fretting the lute become quite expensive... What about using te same gauge from the 4th until the last? Would you have a photo from your lute with the fretting described below? I wish I could see it to try myself. Thanks. 2008/5/10 The Other [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Using Thomas Mace's method of tying double frets; locking forceps to pull the frets tight enough; Dan Larson fret gut; in One Quarter Comma Meantone Temperament, with two 1st frets instead of using a tastini. Fret 1a (peg box side)- 1.00mm Fret 1b (bridge side)- 0.95mm Fret 2- 0.95mm (yes, same size as Fret 1b) Fret 3- 0.90mm Fret 4- 0.85mm Fret 5- 0.80mm Fret 6- 0.75mm Fret 7- 0.70mm Fret 8- 0.65mm No buzzing. Regards, The Other Stephen Stubbs. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Lute Case: Where to get?
Good Afternoon Luters, I need a case for a lute. The lute in question has a case but you can't believe what a piece of crap it is. I have the lute almost to playable condition so it is time to think about a case. What sources are there for cases? Thanx, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Tying on frets
Hello Lutenists, I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear with me: I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute replaced it with a fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a small gap or daylight under the fret. It is actually not all that small, big enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is another question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so since I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. Thank You All Very Much, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets
Hi Everyone, I gotta say I am really impressed with this group. I just signed up posted a message and in no time I have a wealth of information and different things to consider. Thank you all so much! -plh At Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:36:36 -0700 (DST), you wrote Hello I must differ on some points: In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon becomes quite textured and holds quite well. There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. These people have better ears than I. Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All: One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some daylight at the edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie flat. I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of reasons: 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; 2) It is a little tacky and stays in place better than the relatively slippery nylon; 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. Cheers and good luck, Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets Hello Lutenists, I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear with me: I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute replaced it with a fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a small gap or daylight under the fret. It is actually not all that small, big enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is another question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so since I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. Thank You All Very Much, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Wax or raw? (was Re: Tying on frets)
All that was very useful, thanks everyone. I got the camber on that someone discussed broke the edges. Because I had to take more from the peg box end this probably improved the action a tad. Anyway, this is an ebony fingerboard and I was wondering if I should leave it raw wood or apply some butcher's wax, or maybe beeswax or some such?. Any opinions or experience with that issue? Seems any finish would wear off in spots anyway and perhaps look crappy. Thank You, -plh At Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:54:26 -0700 (DST), you wrote Interesting, Joseph! My lute is well overdue for refretting (sp?), and I've always used gut. Do you have any pointers for tying nylon tightly? I tied the traditional double frets when I started 30 years ago, then went over to single strand with a flame-singed ball on the end to hold the knot. Is this basically what you do with nylon? Any advantage to nylgut, etc. (though that would eliminate at least part of the cost advantage!)? Also, do you use gut for stringing, or nylon and overspun? If the latter, what's your experience with wear on the frets from the wound strings? Thanks, Chris. Joseph Mayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4/28/2008 6:36 pm Hello I must differ on some points: In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN. If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon becomes quite textured and holds quite well. There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon. These people have better ears than I. Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again. Best, Joseph Mayes On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All: One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some daylight at the edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie flat. I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of reasons: 1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer; 2) It is a little tacky and stays in place better than the relatively slippery nylon; 3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily. Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a little high, you can use the same diameter throughout. Cheers and good luck, Jim From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets Hello Lutenists, I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear with me: I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute replaced it with a fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a small gap or daylight under the fret. It is actually not all that small, big enough so that I can see that it will be a problem. I know this is not a lute building list but you can help me get playing again by looking at your lutes (assuming you are using tie on frets) and telling me if the edges are beveled or filleted, and if so, how much. And here is another question: if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or crowned? I was careful to get mine really flat but now I wonder. Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? I only have nylon right now. Is this stress effect peculiar to nylon? I would not think so since I notice that wrapped strings lift near the edge as well. Thank You All Very Much, -plh To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
