[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
Dear Thomas, Yes, thanks for further confirmation that the Codice Lauten-Buch survives. So there is a possibility that we will see it some day. I think there has been some attempt to get the owner to permit a facsimile. I mentioned earlier gthat Paul O'Dette mentions its survival in his CD, several others told me about it at the 1997 Francesco conference in Milan. And Dinko Fabris said he knows to whom it was initially sold shortly after Chilesotti's death. I think it is best to quote the title using the largest word on the page, Lauten-Buch, because it IS a German manuscript and it would be a mistake to represent it as being Italian. There is NO _parallel_ Italian/German titles on the front page and cover of Chilesotti's edition, as Matanya would have us believe. It serial title in Italian reads: Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del Cinquecento Trascrizione in notazione moderna di Oscar Chilesotti. Lipsia & Brusselles: Breitkopf & Hartel The title is in Italian, with the largest most important word is the archaic German spelling for Lautenbuch spelled as Chilesotti found it in his manuscript, Lauten-Buch. "Codice" simply means that it is a handwritten Lauten-Buch, rather than a printed one. Ophee knows, for example, that many of the pieces carry the title "Tannz," yet he uses "Danza," a word that was seldom used in 16th century Italian. I do not understand why Matanya is so intent in disguising the fact that the book is German (copied probably in Nuremberg). Some pieces are copied directly from Denss, and other pieces are by the Italian/Poljish virtuoso Diomedes Cato, who we know visited Bavaria. Maybe we will discover that the pieces are in his handwriting when the facsimile appears. Arthur - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: 'Matanya Ophee' ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. It seems the manuscript is preserved in a bank tresor (I've been told there would be many treasures in tresors because some people buy old books for their insurance value which would get lost if the owner would make the manuscript accessible to the public). A pity! Best wishes Thomas In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
> As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived > and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met > the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. Who was it? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. It seems the manuscript is preserved in a bank tresor (I've been told there would be many treasures in tresors because some people buy old books for their insurance value which would get lost if the owner would make the manuscript accessible to the public). A pity! Best wishes Thomas In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
At 06:16 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: >- Original Message - >From: "Matanya Ophee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Some people in this lute world are not easily taken in by your silly > > delusions and require more than just your word for anything. As long > > as all you can provide is unsubstantiated hearsay and rumors, > > responsible writers will ignore you. >1. MO, you are the unique individual not taken by Arthur's "delusions". Which is why Arthur complained that the Lute reviewer of my Chilesotti edition did not buy into Arthur's fairy tale on the mysterious survival of the manuscript? >2. You are NOT a responsible writer, for the reasons you yourself stated >above. What is this, a pissing match between irresponsible writers? >Therefore, would you mind taking your hydrogen sulphide someplace else? Let me draw you a picture, in case you still have not understood where I stand on this matter: as long as Arthur continues his campaign against the guitar and against me, and as long as this is an open unmoderated forum, I will continue to point in this forum out that the man is a liar and a fraud, no matter who supports him and who thinks he can be trusted unchallenged. The only way you can stop me from defending myself, here and everywhere else, is by stopping this drunken tantrum that has been going on for well over ten years in this forum. Encouraging it and morally supporting the unsupportable, will only serve to strengthen my resolve to speak out. Poniatno? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
- Original Message - From: "Matanya Ophee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Some people in this lute world are not easily taken in by your silly > delusions and require more than just your word for anything. As long > as all you can provide is unsubstantiated hearsay and rumors, > responsible writers will ignore you. 1. MO, you are the unique individual not taken by Arthur's "delusions". 2. You are NOT a responsible writer, for the reasons you yourself stated above. Therefore, would you mind taking your hydrogen sulphide someplace else? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
At 04:30 PM 8/25/2005, Matanya Ophee wrote: >Of course, I will make a point of getting hold of this O'Dette CD and >find out exactly what he says there. You're always welcome to have a look at mine. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
At 04:01 PM 8/25/2005, Alain Veylit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Matanya, >This strikes me as an extremely naive attitude. Documental evidence >has lead many people to the wrong conclusions, as documented by the >thousands (millions, actually) of pseudo-scholarly papers churned >out by both private and public research facilities. I'd rather read >liner notes by someone who knows what he is doing, because the >chances of his being wrong leading to an interesting mistake are much higher. I am sure there is a negative missing someplace in the above sentence... I agree with you that there have been a great deal of pseudo-scholarly papers with the wrong conclusions. But here is the the rub: the only way to know that they were wrong conclusions and that the scholarliness was less than first rate, is by checking the documental evidence provided. Without it, we must resort to trust based on personal admiration to the writer, which is what you seem to be implying here. If that works for you, then of course I wish the best of happiness with the knowledge you obtained. Being an iconoclast heretic, I am not willing to trust anyone, not even myself, on anything. I need to be shown that facts, not somebody's recollections of them. In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. Of course, I will make a point of getting hold of this O'Dette CD and find out exactly what he says there. By now, it is clear that trusting Arthur Ness to correctly report on stuff he had read someplace, is not a reliable way of learning. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
Matanya, This strikes me as an extremely naive attitude. Documental evidence has lead many people to the wrong conclusions, as documented by the thousands (millions, actually) of pseudo-scholarly papers churned out by both private and public research facilities. I'd rather read liner notes by someone who knows what he is doing, because the chances of his being wrong leading to an interesting mistake are much higher. Science's progress is not from one truth to another, but from one giant mistake to a different one. Sometimes, we get lucky, and the mistake turns out to be useful. Sometimes we get the H-bomb. As for History, it is but a long series of misreadings feeding on each other. Alain, in a cynical mood :) Matanya Ophee wrote: >At 01:39 PM 8/25/2005, Alain Veylit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>When Paul O'Dette writes the notes, there is no shame in using >>those, is there? >> >> > >Depends what he said, and how can one verify what he said. If the >information delivered is of the same hearsay rumor quality as that >provided by Ness, i.e., not backed by any documental evidence >whatsoever, then it does not matter who signed his name to the liner notes. > > > >Matanya Ophee >Editions Orphe'e, Inc., >1240 Clubview Blvd. N. >Columbus, OH 43235-1226 >Phone: 614-846-9517 >Fax: 614-846-9794 >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.orphee.com >http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
At 01:39 PM 8/25/2005, Alain Veylit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >When Paul O'Dette writes the notes, there is no shame in using >those, is there? Depends what he said, and how can one verify what he said. If the information delivered is of the same hearsay rumor quality as that provided by Ness, i.e., not backed by any documental evidence whatsoever, then it does not matter who signed his name to the liner notes. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli & Chilesotti
When Paul O'Dette writes the notes, there is no shame in using those, is there? Alain Matanya Ophee wrote: >Arthur Ness >Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:34:27 -0700 > > > >>That information is also given in the notes >>to Paul's CD. >> >> > >Glad to know that you obtain your musicological information from CD >liner notes. I suspected as much, but now you confirmed it. Thank you. > > > >>We know the Codice Lauten-Buch is not lost or destroyed >>because the current owner hired an Italian >>lutenist to give a private recital in his home. He >>played directly from the original manuscript, which is so >>famous it would be easy to spot. >> >> > >Who are the "we" in this statement? the Royal Ness We? What you seem >to know, and to repeat here shamelessly, is nothing more than >unsubstantiated hearsay. You do not not know who the putative current >owner is, you do not know who was this alleged Italian lutenist, you >do not know when and where this supposed concert took place, and you >cannot even cite one single living lutenist who would swear to have >been present when this event took place. > > > >>Matanya Ophee persists in perpetuating the >>story on this list and in his reprint that Tuffolo >>(Chilesotti's grand nephew) and >>Bussandri (his grandson) have declared that the original >>has not survived. I doubt they ever made such a claim. >> >> > >Not only they, but also your friend Dinko Fabris. And your doubts >about my statements, as much as you are entitled to them, can be >easily refuted. For example, you once expressed the doubt that the >entire repository of Francesco microfilms, first collected by John >Ward and the one you used to make up your Francesco book 35 years >ago, was given to me by John and is now in my possession. You doubt >that is true? then come on over to my house and take a look. Too far? >you can ask somebody who lives closer to come and check. There are a >few members of this list who live practically around the corner and >would be happy to verify this for you. > >The statements made in my edition where written by Toffolo himself, >and approved for publication by Bussandri. If you doubt this is true, >why don't you ask them? > > > >>How would they know the fate of a rare and valuable book >>that was sold nearly a century ago, before either >>wasborn, and has been in >>private hands ever since? >> >> > >Good question. Perhaps you could now tell us how do _you_ know that, >since you too was not even born then? > > > >> And I doubt either has any >>particular interest in lute music, or moves in the >>Italian lute community. >> >> > >And the relevance of this is what? Toffolo is the author of the >latest and most complete biography of Oscar Chilesotti, and also the >author of the preface to my edition of the Codex. Heis also a >prolific writer on many relevant subjects and his articles are >currently published in il Fronimo. Bussandri is the owner of the >Chilesotti museum. So whether they are directly involved in Italian >lute circles, the fact remains that they are directly involved in all >affairs concerning Oscar Chileostti. Of course, you do not doubt that >Dinko Fabris has any >particular interest in lute music, or moves in the Italian lute >community. Or do you? > > > >>It is a "Codice Lauten-Buch." By leaving out the >>largest word on the title page, Lauten-Buch, Ophee is >>suppressing the information that the book is >>German (actually Bavarian, where Italian tablature was >>in use). >> >> > >The reasons for eliminating this superfluous marketing ploy by the >Breitkopf & Haertel publishing company from the title was carefully >explained in my edition. The text of the title page is not serial, >but parallel. > > > >>Unfortunately the reviewer in the current issue of >>_The_Lute_ was taken in by this, and mistakenly writes >>that it is a lost Italian manuscript. >> >> > >Some people in this lute world are not easily taken in by your silly >delusions and require more than just your word for anything. As long >as all you can provide is unsubstantiated hearsay and rumors, >responsible writers will ignore you. > > > >>In any event, until a facsimile appears, Dick Hoban's >>tablature edition for Lyre Press will serve most >>lutenists. >> >> > >Certainly will. And as for the likelihood of another Forni facsimile >appearing: I doubt that very much. Not today. I actually considered >doing a facsimile, since I own a pristine copy of the original 1890 >edition. But the costs of printing such a book today are such that >publishing it today is only possible if the price to the end-user >would be someplace around and beyond the space station. Not going to >happen. I am not a suicidal publisher, and neither is Forni. And if >you doubt what I say, try and obtain an estimate from a printer. Many >commercial printers in the US enable you to obtain estimates on line. >Just give them the dimensions of the book, num
