RE: No paragraph alignment options
Helge Hafting wrote: >> could you give a meaningful example with specific layouts between >> which you would be switching (out of curiosity) which would give rise >> to the above? > I can't remember a layout with default centering, f.e. title in the article layout > but I believe the headings are left-justified. > > So, set some "standard" paragraph to explicit left-justified. > Turn it into a heading, then turn it back to "standard" again. > Information lost, if we don't have an explicit "default". sure, i was pretty clear about this. note though that your example will hardly ever happen (except as a mistake). moreover, information loss on layout switch is frequently unavoidable. what will happen for example in the current implementation if you center the standard paragraph, switch to a heading (which doesn't allow center) and switch back again? we will loose information... so to summarize i am don't think that this "proves" that we need an extra default button btw, did you try you example with the current "solution"? you will see that you loose the same information (a problem there?)! ... > Now, feel free to add an indicator saying what the current default > alignment is, i.e.: > > o default (justified) > o justified > o right > o center > o left > > But don't add the indicator unless you make sure it is > correct in all cases (except ERT abuse). > > You must cope with changing paragraph layouts, changing document > types, documents included into other documents, > paragraphs nested into other paragraphs that possibly have different > alignments set, document branches being turned on/off, and so on. > > Seeing as we are near a release, I think just keeping "default" > is the easy way to go here. you can find example code in the patch i send...
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Edwin Leuven wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: case 2 is in my opinion not so relevant because i don't see why (in the current solution) one would have default unchecked and then choose the explicit alignment that matches default behavior One such cases: I'm in Standard Layout and I want my par centered so I set it explicitly. Then I change layout to one with centered default [then realize it's not what I though] and change back. I've lost my explicit centering. this is not case 2, but case 1: x is set and we change the default to x ... could you give a meaningful example with specific layouts between which you would be switching (out of curiosity) which would give rise to the above? I can't remember a layout with default centering, but I believe the headings are left-justified. So, set some "standard" paragraph to explicit left-justified. Turn it into a heading, then turn it back to "standard" again. Information lost, if we don't have an explicit "default". Something similiar happens with paragraphs of increased depth - they may inherit all sorts of settings from the outer paragraph. So please let us have "default" in addition to explicit alignments. Now, feel free to add an indicator saying what the current default alignment is, i.e.: o default (justified) o justified o right o center o left But don't add the indicator unless you make sure it is correct in all cases (except ERT abuse). You must cope with changing paragraph layouts, changing document types, documents included into other documents, paragraphs nested into other paragraphs that possibly have different alignments set, document branches being turned on/off, and so on. Seeing as we are near a release, I think just keeping "default" is the easy way to go here. Helge Hafting
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Richard Heck wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: What happends if the user moves the cursor when the dialog is open, does it get updated? The dialog is presently modal, precisely because there's no reliable trigger right now to do the update. Making this work involves re-working the controller fairly extensively, or at least that was the conclusion Abdel and I reached when I was redoing this dialog a while ago. Yes and FYI I have started the rewrite a while ago. Abdel.
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: Leuven, E. wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: since default takes precedence things go fine in your example. I see. WRT the current situation, your approach tends to make things default (on layout switching) against user will, which is sort of lyx philosophy: don't care what you want, no manual formatting allowed here! My own view is more with Alfredo and, I think, J"urgen. Users do switch layouts, and there is a difference between saying, "Use the default alignment, whatever that might be" and "Center this, come what may". If you collapse Default with whatever the default happens to be, it becomes impossible to say that. This was Helge's point a while ago, and Joost has made it, too. At the end, maybe it's not so terrible. Question: what do you do if the selection consists in paragraphs with different layouts (with different defaults) I take it the point of this question is: What counts as "default" in this case? There's no good answer if we're trying to collapse default with what the default is. Note, however, that it would make perfectly good sense to select a bunch of paragraphs you'd customized and then to choose "Default", precisely so as to restore them all to default. You could even select the whole document and do this to undo all paragraph-level alignment customization. Note that this also means the "Default (Justified)" strategy won't work, since there's no such thing in multi-paragraph selections. It also means that the font-switching strategy I'd implemented doesn't work. Default is just default. A tooltip will help a bit, perhaps. That said, the issue is moot at present, because LyX itself (wrongly, in my view) collapses the default with what the default is. If the default is, in fact, Justified, and you choose Justified, then you get Default. That is, you get LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT not LYX_ALIGN_BLOCK. This is in Text2.cpp, and fixing it would require more work than we want to do now, I suspect. A change may be needed in the LaTeX output routines (i.e., don't output alignment info if it's the default), and there are some other issues with how alignments are reported, via ParagraphParameters::align(), not to mention some general issues with mixing alignments and certain kinds of environments (bug 3434). A lot of this could be done right after 1.5.0, I think---though perhaps not 3434. It's not huge, just not now. I'll send an updated patch shortly. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: What happends if the user moves the cursor when the dialog is open, does it get updated? The dialog is presently modal, precisely because there's no reliable trigger right now to do the update. Making this work involves re-working the controller fairly extensively, or at least that was the conclusion Abdel and I reached when I was redoing this dialog a while ago. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
> I obviously did. Sorry. I'm still not entirely convinced.
i was thinking like the attached...
Index: src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.cpp
===
--- src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.cpp (revision 18850)
+++ src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.cpp (working copy)
@@ -50,7 +50,6 @@
connect(applyPB, SIGNAL(clicked()), form_, SLOT(slotApply()));
connect(closePB, SIGNAL(clicked()), form_, SLOT(slotClose()));
connect(restorePB, SIGNAL(clicked()), form_, SLOT(slotRestore()));
- connect(alignDefaultCB, SIGNAL(clicked()), this, SLOT(change_adaptor()));
connect(alignJustRB, SIGNAL(clicked()), this, SLOT(change_adaptor()));
connect(alignLeftRB, SIGNAL(clicked()), this, SLOT(change_adaptor()));
connect(alignRightRB, SIGNAL(clicked()), this, SLOT(change_adaptor()));
@@ -77,9 +76,9 @@
" items is used."
));
- radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_BLOCK] = alignJustRB;
- radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_LEFT] = alignLeftRB;
- radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_RIGHT] = alignRightRB;
+ radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_BLOCK] = alignJustRB;
+ radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_LEFT] = alignLeftRB;
+ radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_RIGHT] = alignRightRB;
radioMap[LYX_ALIGN_CENTER] = alignCenterRB;
}
@@ -105,35 +104,44 @@
void QParagraphDialog::checkAlignmentRadioButtons() {
- if (alignDefaultCB->isChecked()) {
- QPRadioMap::const_iterator it = radioMap.begin();
- for (; it != radioMap.end(); ++it)
- it->second->setDisabled(true);
- } else {
- LyXAlignment alignPossible = form_->controller().alignPossible();
- QPRadioMap::const_iterator it = radioMap.begin();
- for (; it != radioMap.end(); ++it)
- it->second->setEnabled(it->first & alignPossible);
+ LyXAlignment const alignPossible = form_->controller().alignPossible();
+ LyXAlignment const defaultAlignment = form_->controller().alignDefault();
+ QPRadioMap::iterator it = radioMap.begin();
+ for (; it != radioMap.end(); ++it) {
+ it->second->setEnabled((it->first & alignPossible) ||
+ (it->first == LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT));
+ string label;
+ switch (it->first) {
+ case LYX_ALIGN_BLOCK:
+label = "Justified";
+break;
+ case LYX_ALIGN_LEFT:
+label = "Left";
+break;
+ case LYX_ALIGN_CENTER:
+label = "Center";
+break;
+ case LYX_ALIGN_RIGHT:
+label = "Right";
+break;
+ }
+
+ if (it->first == defaultAlignment)
+ label += " (Default)";
+
+ it->second->setText(qt_(label));
}
}
-void QParagraphDialog::on_alignDefaultCB_toggled(bool)
-{
- checkAlignmentRadioButtons();
- alignmentToRadioButtons();
-}
-
-
void QParagraphDialog::alignmentToRadioButtons(LyXAlignment align)
{
- if (align == LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT)
- align = form_->controller().alignDefault();
-
QPRadioMap::const_iterator it = radioMap.begin();
for (;it != radioMap.end(); ++it) {
if (align == it->first) {
+ it->second->blockSignals(true);
it->second->setChecked(true);
+ it->second->blockSignals(false);
return;
}
}
@@ -145,18 +153,18 @@
LyXAlignment QParagraphDialog::getAlignmentFromDialog()
{
- if (alignDefaultCB->isChecked())
- return LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT;
+ LyXAlignment const defaultAlignment = form_->controller().alignDefault();
LyXAlignment alignment = LYX_ALIGN_NONE;
QPRadioMap::const_iterator it = radioMap.begin();
for (; it != radioMap.end(); ++it) {
if (it->second->isChecked()) {
- alignment = it->first;
+ if (it->first == defaultAlignment)
+alignment = LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT;
+ else
+alignment = it->first;
break;
}
}
- if (alignment == form_->controller().alignDefault())
- return LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT;
return alignment;
}
@@ -243,15 +251,8 @@
}
// alignment
- LyXAlignment newAlignment = params.align();
- LyXAlignment defaultAlignment = controller().alignDefault();
- bool alignmentIsDefault =
- newAlignment == LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT || newAlignment == defaultAlignment;
- dialog_->alignDefaultCB->blockSignals(true);
- dialog_->alignDefaultCB->setChecked(alignmentIsDefault);
- dialog_->alignDefaultCB->blockSignals(false);
dialog_->checkAlignmentRadioButtons();
- dialog_->alignmentToRadioButtons(newAlignment);
+ dialog_->alignmentToRadioButtons(params.align());
//indentation
bool const canindent = controller().canIndent();
Index: src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.h
===
--- src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.h (revision 18850)
+++ src/frontends/qt4/QParagraph.h (working copy)
@@ -49,8 +49,6 @@
void change_adaptor();
///
void enableLinespacingValue(int);
- ///
- void on_alignDefaultCB_toggled(bool);
};
Index: src/frontends/qt4/ui/ParagraphUi.ui
===
--- src/frontends/qt4/ui/ParagraphUi.ui (revision 18850)
+++ src/frontends/qt4/ui/ParagraphUi.ui (working copy)
@@ -8,8 +8,8 @@
0
0
-373
-203
+346
+226
@@ -36,76 +36,14 @@
6
-
-
-
- 0
+
+
+
+ Indent &Paragraph
-
-
RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Leuven, E. wrote: > Alfredo Braunstein wrote: >> Let me give you another case: I often write my titles first in Standard >> Layout and *then* switch the layout to Title. With your approach I would >> have to manually center it. Awful. > > no. > > reread what i wrote: That implies I've read it in the first place... > since default takes precedence things go fine in your example. I see. WRT the current situation, your approach tends to make things default (on layout switching) against user will, which is sort of lyx philosophy: don't care what you want, no manual formatting allowed here! ... At the end, maybe it's not so terrible. Question: what do you do if the selection consists in paragraphs with different layouts (with different defaults) >> In any case I prefer your other proposal with Default (Justified) and all >> the rest. > > i can live with that > >> So I vote that or no change ;-) Still prefer this I think. > i should remind you that it is friday I've written that smile yesterday. I keep one or two around for precaution. A/
RE: RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Leuven, E. wrote: > you are misunderstanding me. the inset/layout should tell us what the > default is (and i think it does at the moment). so sometimes this will be > justified, in other cases center, etc. I obviously did. Sorry. I'm still not entirely convinced. Jürgen
RE: RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Juergen Spitzmueller wrote: > Where do you get your stats from? from a very reliable source > I just think it's wrong to assume that justified is the de facto "standard" > alignment. ? you are misunderstanding me. the inset/layout should tell us what the default is (and i think it does at the moment). so sometimes this will be justified, in other cases center, etc. > I often redefine the alignment of several paragraph styles in the preamble > (or of certain classes) due to the guidelines of the publishers. The > approach you are proposing results in dataloss/wrong output, i don't think so
RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: > Let me give you another case: I often write my titles first in Standard > Layout and *then* switch the layout to Title. With your approach I would > have to manually center it. Awful. no. reread what i wrote: "i would be fine with having the default take precedence in both cases and have this in the interface: o Justified (default) o Left o Center o Right " ... since default takes precedence things go fine in your example. >> i really don't see the point of cluttering the user interface for these >> very small contingencies. > > Clutter is a big word... CLUTTER is even bigger > What happends if the user moves the cursor when the dialog is open, does it > get updated? it should be (until we get rid of these modeless dialogs) > In any case I prefer your other proposal with Default (Justified) and all > the rest. i can live with that > So I vote that or no change ;-) i should remind you that it is friday
RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Leuven, E. wrote: >> No, they're not. > > where do you get your stats from? Where do you get your stats from? I just think it's wrong to assume that justified is the de facto "standard" alignment. This might be true for standard paragraphs in most book and article classes, for others it is not. I often redefine the alignment of several paragraph styles in the preamble (or of certain classes) due to the guidelines of the publishers. The approach you are proposing results in dataloss/wrong output, and this is a no-opt IMHO. Jürgen
RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Leuven, E. wrote: > so given that: > > - people don't switch document classes often (i for example never do) > - switching document layouts often involve information loss because they > do not define similar environments - case 1 & 2 are rare Let me give you another case: I often write my titles first in Standard Layout and *then* switch the layout to Title. With your approach I would have to manually center it. Awful. > i really don't see the point of cluttering the user interface for these > very small contingencies. Clutter is a big word... > i also think that > > o Justified (Default) > o Left > o Center > o Right > > will be more understandable to users who don't know latex while at the > same time it makes default explicit which is think was the starting point Is not about latex imo, is about document layouts. > imo of course... What happends if the user moves the cursor when the dialog is open, does it get updated? In any case I prefer your other proposal with Default (Justified) and all the rest. So I vote that or no change ;-) A/
RE: RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
>> - case 1 & 2 are rare > > No, they're not. where do you get your stats from?
RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Leuven, E. wrote: > - case 1 & 2 are rare No, they're not. Jürgen
RE: Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: > Specially with new document classes I normally don't know what the layouts > really are so I switch back and forth several times... i agree that the only situation where this might reasonably occur is when switching document classes. so given that: - people don't switch document classes often (i for example never do) - switching document layouts often involve information loss because they do not define similar environments - case 1 & 2 are rare i really don't see the point of cluttering the user interface for these very small contingencies. i also think that o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right will be more understandable to users who don't know latex while at the same time it makes default explicit which is think was the starting point imo of course...
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Edwin Leuven wrote: > Alfredo Braunstein wrote: >> Edwin Leuven wrote: >> >>> case 2 is in my opinion not so relevant because i don't see why (in the >>> current solution) one would have default unchecked and then choose the >>> explicit alignment that matches default behavior >> >> One such cases: I'm in Standard Layout and I want my par centered so I >> set it explicitly. Then I change layout to one with centered default >> [then realize it's not what I though] and change back. I've lost my >> explicit centering. > > this is not case 2, but case 1: > > x is set and we change the default to x It's both ;-) After changing the default to x, the situation is such that (with the current code) the default is not checked but x == default. So changing back falls in case 2. > > ... > > could you give a meaningful example with specific layouts between which > you would be switching (out of curiosity) which would give rise to the > above? Specially with new document classes I normally don't know what the layouts really are so I switch back and forth several times... The point is that we will be changing an explicit user setting on the user's back. I think it's wrong. A/
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: case 2 is in my opinion not so relevant because i don't see why (in the current solution) one would have default unchecked and then choose the explicit alignment that matches default behavior One such cases: I'm in Standard Layout and I want my par centered so I set it explicitly. Then I change layout to one with centered default [then realize it's not what I though] and change back. I've lost my explicit centering. this is not case 2, but case 1: x is set and we change the default to x ... could you give a meaningful example with specific layouts between which you would be switching (out of curiosity) which would give rise to the above?
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Edwin Leuven wrote: > case 2 is in my opinion not so relevant because i don't see why (in the > current solution) one would have default unchecked and then choose the > explicit alignment that matches default behavior One such cases: I'm in Standard Layout and I want my par centered so I set it explicitly. Then I change layout to one with centered default [then realize it's not what I though] and change back. I've lost my explicit centering. A/
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: This is bad. What if the user changes layout (or worse document class) and the new layout has different default alignment? You are losing information here. ah, i see the problem now. there seem to be 2 problem cases: 1 x is set and we change the default to x: 2 x (default) is set and the default changes: (x being one of justified/left/center/right) case 2 is in my opinion not so relevant because i don't see why (in the current solution) one would have default unchecked and then choose the explicit alignment that matches default behavior which leaves case 1 and the question if we would like to keep the explicit formatting here. i would be fine with having the default take precedence in both cases and have this in the interface: o Justified (default) o Left o Center o Right but i can understand that others might think otherwise...
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On Jun 21, 2007, at 17:28 , Richard Heck wrote: Anders Ekberg wrote: On 21 jun 2007, at 13.12, Helge Hafting wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: It shouldn't be a radio button just like the others, since it's not an option in the way that the others are. Sorry, but I consider that a bad argument. Sure, "default" is a bit different. That does NOT imply it can't be a radio button like the rest. To me, "default" means "whatever is default for this paragraph type" while the other choices are explicit. (I.e. if you really want a right-adjusted heading, and so on.) The problem is not so much that the interface is hard to understand. (It _is_, but people always learn such stuff after a while. Even non-latexers keep a few useful latex commands around. . .) It is also clunky to use, which is the big killer here. If I want "centered", I want to click "centered" and be done with it! I do not want to have to uncheck "default" first. And I believe most other writers see it the same way. Agree. It is also consistent with the text settings where "Reset" (read Default) is an option like all others in the pop-up menus. In fact to use a pop-up menu with No change Justified Left Center Right Reset would increase the consistency. Would this be a possibility? I agree with Helge's analysis, too, and have prepared a patch which I'll send separately. I propose to stick with "default", though, again for Helge's reasons: It means "whatever the default is for this paragraph" and corresponds to LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT. So it basically means "No special alignment". There's no need to "No change", so far as I can see. If you want that, you just don't do anything, since the button will always be set to whatever it was before. Of course, "No change" is for the pop-up menu case where you need a possibility to select "nothing" (since you can't use Cancel if you wish to apply other changes in the dialogue). /A
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote: > On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Edwin Leuven wrote: > >> and this one doesn't make sense: >> >> if we could tell beforehand what the default was because then we >> could show something like: >> >> o Justified (default) >> o Left >> o Center >> o Right >> >> >> ? >> > > Of the options I've seen, I agree that this is the best. This is bad. What if the user changes layout (or worse document class) and the new layout has different default alignment? You are losing information here. A/
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote:
On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Edwin Leuven wrote:
and this one doesn't make sense:
if we could tell beforehand what the default was because then we
could show something like:
o Justified (default)
o Left
o Center
o Right
?
Of the options I've seen, I agree that this is the best.
In principle, I think default ought to be separate: Saying "default"
means "don't do anything special", whereas saying "Justified" ought to
mean, "Make it justified, no matter what". (Imagine you have a child
doc, and it might be included in different master docs with different
defaults.) In fact, that's not how LyX handles things at present. If you
check "Justified" and that happens to be the default, then it's the same
as checking "Default". But this is a different bug, I think, viz:
void Text::setParagraph(Cursor & cur,
Spacing const & spacing, LyXAlignment align,
docstring const & labelwidthstring, bool noindent)
{
BOOST_ASSERT(cur.text());
// make sure that the depth behind the selection are restored, too
pit_type undopit = undoSpan(cur.selEnd().pit());
recUndo(cur, cur.selBegin().pit(), undopit - 1);
for (pit_type pit = cur.selBegin().pit(), end = cur.selEnd().pit();
pit <= end; ++pit) {
Paragraph & par = pars_[pit];
ParagraphParameters & params = par.params();
params.spacing(spacing);
// does the layout allow the new alignment?
Layout_ptr const & layout = par.layout();
if (align == LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT)
align = layout->align;
if (align & layout->alignpossible) {
/// NOTE: It's right here that the bug mentioned above lies. It would be trivial
/// to change this if people thought it necessary. Just delete the next three
lines
/// and fix the whitespace.
if (align == layout->align)
params.align(LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT);
else
params.align(align);
}
par.setLabelWidthString(labelwidthstring);
params.noindent(noindent);
}
}
Richard
--
==
Richard G Heck, Jr
Professor of Philosophy
Brown University
http://frege.brown.edu/heck/
==
Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de
Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC
Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at:
http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Edwin Leuven wrote: and this one doesn't make sense: if we could tell beforehand what the default was because then we could show something like: o Justified (default) o Left o Center o Right ? Of the options I've seen, I agree that this is the best. Bennett
Re: No paragraph alignment options
and this one doesn't make sense: if we could tell beforehand what the default was because then we could show something like: o Justified (default) o Left o Center o Right ?
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Anders Ekberg wrote: On 21 jun 2007, at 13.12, Helge Hafting wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: It shouldn't be a radio button just like the others, since it's not an option in the way that the others are. Sorry, but I consider that a bad argument. Sure, "default" is a bit different. That does NOT imply it can't be a radio button like the rest. To me, "default" means "whatever is default for this paragraph type" while the other choices are explicit. (I.e. if you really want a right-adjusted heading, and so on.) The problem is not so much that the interface is hard to understand. (It _is_, but people always learn such stuff after a while. Even non-latexers keep a few useful latex commands around. . .) It is also clunky to use, which is the big killer here. If I want "centered", I want to click "centered" and be done with it! I do not want to have to uncheck "default" first. And I believe most other writers see it the same way. Agree. It is also consistent with the text settings where "Reset" (read Default) is an option like all others in the pop-up menus. In fact to use a pop-up menu with No change Justified Left Center Right Reset would increase the consistency. Would this be a possibility? I agree with Helge's analysis, too, and have prepared a patch which I'll send separately. I propose to stick with "default", though, again for Helge's reasons: It means "whatever the default is for this paragraph" and corresponds to LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT. So it basically means "No special alignment". There's no need to "No change", so far as I can see. If you want that, you just don't do anything, since the button will always be set to whatever it was before. Richard /Anders -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On 21 jun 2007, at 13.12, Helge Hafting wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: It shouldn't be a radio button just like the others, since it's not an option in the way that the others are. Sorry, but I consider that a bad argument. Sure, "default" is a bit different. That does NOT imply it can't be a radio button like the rest. To me, "default" means "whatever is default for this paragraph type" while the other choices are explicit. (I.e. if you really want a right-adjusted heading, and so on.) The problem is not so much that the interface is hard to understand. (It _is_, but people always learn such stuff after a while. Even non-latexers keep a few useful latex commands around. . .) It is also clunky to use, which is the big killer here. If I want "centered", I want to click "centered" and be done with it! I do not want to have to uncheck "default" first. And I believe most other writers see it the same way. Agree. It is also consistent with the text settings where "Reset" (read Default) is an option like all others in the pop-up menus. In fact to use a pop-up menu with No change Justified Left Center Right Reset would increase the consistency. Would this be a possibility? /Anders
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote: It shouldn't be a radio button just like the others, since it's not an option in the way that the others are. Sorry, but I consider that a bad argument. Sure, "default" is a bit different. That does NOT imply it can't be a radio button like the rest. To me, "default" means "whatever is default for this paragraph type" while the other choices are explicit. (I.e. if you really want a right-adjusted heading, and so on.) The problem is not so much that the interface is hard to understand. (It _is_, but people always learn such stuff after a while. Even non-latexers keep a few useful latex commands around. . .) It is also clunky to use, which is the big killer here. If I want "centered", I want to click "centered" and be done with it! I do not want to have to uncheck "default" first. And I believe most other writers see it the same way. "Conceptual" differences really isn't that interesting. So please - make "default" a radio button the same way as left/rigth/center. If you feel a need to mark the conceptual difference - feel free to set the "default" radio button a little apart from the other radio buttons, as you suggested. That is fine! But it should definitely _work_ like "just another radio button" in this case. The user can then change alignment with a _single_ click or hotkey. It is easy to understand too. :-) Some ideas. Separator line: o Default - o Justified o Right o Center o Left or indentation: o Default o Justified o Right o Center o Left The user can now see that "default" is a special state, but still change it with a _single_ operation. Ease of use, and easily learned. (Which alignment is the default varies depending on the environment, but the default will be one of left, right, centered, or justified.) It's for this reason that I haven't been able to think of anything better than how it is now, and once you see the logic of it, it does seem reasonable. The only trouble is that the logic isn't obvious. So, to answer Richard: I don't have any good idea how to improve it. I wouldn't put in a line to separate them; that does the opposite of what you want: to indicate a link between them. Boldface doesn't seem the right sort of thing: what's wanted is a visual image that indicates that the default checkbox has a kind of priority or control over the status of the radio buttons. Perhaps, then, the radio buttons should be indented a bit underneath the checkbox? X Default o Justified o Left o Center o Right (Notice that I've switched the order of the radio buttons, putting center in the middle rather than at the end.) Center in the center - nice idea! Helge Hafting
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote: X Default o Justified o Left o Center o Right maybe giving the choice between "default" or "environment default" and "custom" or "force" makes it more explicit? o Default o Custom o Justified o Left o Center o Right it would of course be nicer if we could tell beforehand what the default was because then we could show something like: o Justified (default) o Left o Center o Right and not take any action when the default button is checked ...
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On Jun 20, 2007, at 6:22 PM, Anders Ekberg wrote: Richard Heck Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:30:21 -0700 Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Neal Becker wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out. Did you uncheck the "Default" box? Ah! Well, at least one reasonably intelligent somewhat experienced lyx user was confused about this interface. Make that two: I was confused initially as well. Any suggestions how to make it more intuitive? The change here was to include a "default" option, so that you can unset changes you'd made before. It wasn't previously clear how to do that---though the solution was, set the default, whatever that is. Is it possible that something as simple as a line separating "default" from the others would help? Or putting "DEFAULT" like that? or in bold? or...? rh Is there a reason the Default box is not a radio button as the other? It is different in behaviour (since not specified), but isn't the italic font a sufficient indicator for that? Or am I missing something? It shouldn't be a radio button just like the others, since it's not an option in the way that the others are. (Which alignment is the default varies depending on the environment, but the default will be one of left, right, centered, or justified.) It's for this reason that I haven't been able to think of anything better than how it is now, and once you see the logic of it, it does seem reasonable. The only trouble is that the logic isn't obvious. So, to answer Richard: I don't have any good idea how to improve it. I wouldn't put in a line to separate them; that does the opposite of what you want: to indicate a link between them. Boldface doesn't seem the right sort of thing: what's wanted is a visual image that indicates that the default checkbox has a kind of priority or control over the status of the radio buttons. Perhaps, then, the radio buttons should be indented a bit underneath the checkbox? X Default o Justified o Left o Center o Right (Notice that I've switched the order of the radio buttons, putting center in the middle rather than at the end.) Bennett
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Richard Heck Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:30:21 -0700 Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Neal Becker wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out. Did you uncheck the "Default" box? Ah! Well, at least one reasonably intelligent somewhat experienced lyx user was confused about this interface. Make that two: I was confused initially as well. Any suggestions how to make it more intuitive? The change here was to include a "default" option, so that you can unset changes you'd made before. It wasn't previously clear how to do that---though the solution was, set the default, whatever that is. Is it possible that something as simple as a line separating "default" from the others would help? Or putting "DEFAULT" like that? or in bold? or...? rh Is there a reason the Default box is not a radio button as the other? It is different in behaviour (since not specified), but isn't the italic font a sufficient indicator for that? Or am I missing something? Anders Ekberg
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Neal Becker wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out. Did you uncheck the "Default" box? Ah! Well, at least one reasonably intelligent somewhat experienced lyx user was confused about this interface. Make that two: I was confused initially as well. Any suggestions how to make it more intuitive? The change here was to include a "default" option, so that you can unset changes you'd made before. It wasn't previously clear how to do that---though the solution was, set the default, whatever that is. Is it possible that something as simple as a line separating "default" from the others would help? Or putting "DEFAULT" like that? or in bold? or...? rh -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On Jun 20, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Neal Becker wrote: Bennett Helm wrote: On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out. Did you uncheck the "Default" box? Ah! Well, at least one reasonably intelligent somewhat experienced lyx user was confused about this interface. Make that two: I was confused initially as well. Bennett
Re: No paragraph alignment options
Bennett Helm wrote: > On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: > >> 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options >> always seem >> to be greyed out. > > Did you uncheck the "Default" box? > Ah! Well, at least one reasonably intelligent somewhat experienced lyx user was confused about this interface.
Re: No paragraph alignment options
On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Neal Becker wrote: 1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out. Did you uncheck the "Default" box? Bennett
No paragraph alignment options
1.50rc1. Under paragraph settings dialog, all alignment options always seem to be greyed out.
