Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and P. Christeas at 20/12/11 07:56 did gyre and gimble: > On Saturday 17 December 2011, Colin Guthrie wrote: >> Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later. >> Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for >> 99.5% of the use cases ... > > I'd like to question that. > You see, machines still have 'init 3' (or did Fedora remove that, too?), Yup they remove it! Well, technically not, it's just not called "3" any more, it's called "multi-user.target" which is altogether more sensible. > there > is still people wanting a Linux box (not desktop) not to have X. And that's > way more than 0.5% . OK, the text you quoted is somewhat taken out of context. I never suggested removing text logins or not catering for server installs sans X (I use this setup myself). All I'm suggesting is that the first, say six TTYs are reserved for the current target's preferred login system. If you are on multi-user.target (aka runlevel 3) then you 1-6 offer you a text login as before. However if you are on graphical target then 1-6 should offer you graphical logins instead. > Or, X may be broken sometimes. And I proposed that some higher numbers would be reserved for text-only logins - i.e. tty's 8-9 or something. > So, standardization of tty1=text makes sense, is not just an old habit. No, it's an old habit so you are defaulting to it as a solution when there are a myriad of others out there that (IMO) fit better. > Because, you are *always* expecting to find a working tty console on a Linux > box[1], while X only launches a bit later, if it can[2]. Putting the one that > works in the default place is more reasonable, see? I also thing it's reasonable that *something* pops up when X tries to start and fails. Whether this is a getty that allows you to log in or something even more friendly, doesn't really matter. > Really, why don't you patch the kernel to start at tty7? you could call that > "progress", too. IMO, no it's not progress. It's keeping the same conventions for the sake of it rather than evaluating what makes sense with a fresh pair of eyes. The ONLY valid reason I can see for keeping graphics on tty7 is simply that's that's how it was done before. Now this does carry some weight I agree, but when evaluating what makes Linux hard to use for newbies and novices, we sometimes have to through out "quirks" that we are used to for the sake of a more logical approach. > Some things in Linux could improve, but some don't need change. Unix legacy > is > what makes Linux great[3] Citation needed. And your footnote is complete nonsense. Time has not proven it right at all. It's proven that it works, but that doesn't mean it's optimal. I mean time has proven that a bubble sort works. Does that mean we should not look to e.g. quick sort algorithms etc? Of course not. >, IMHO. Part of that legacy (the "old school") is to > have failsafe defaults, is to start with a minimal design and then build the > extras on top. And you are welcome to your view, but you have to admit it's clouded. I try very hard to discard any clouded views I have due to habits. I mean a regular newbie user doesn't consider "graphical UI" to be an "extra that you built on top"... it's the core to them. Anything less and it's not an operating system! > That's why Unix principles (or "hangovers") have survived so > many decades, while other OSs have gone with the wind[4]. A lot of unixisms are good. But some are bad and just didn't have any viable alternative until people pull their finger out and design and develop some stuff to replace it! You cannot say "unix is good" as a broad statement. You have to each component on it's own merits. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 12/28/2011 10:31 AM, Frank Griffin wrote: Col, Could you have a look at https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2600 ? It appears that starting X on tty1 may be causing problems on single-core machines, as something is starting mingetty on tty1 repeatedly. Also, I'm not sure what the desired functionality ended up as here, but in current cauldron even though there are mingetty's started on tty1-tty6, CTRL-ALT-Fn doesn't budge off the X desktop for any value of n. No longer critical, the problem went away when I upgraded X to 1.11.2-3 from 1.10.4.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 12/20/2011 02:56 AM, P. Christeas wrote: On Saturday 17 December 2011, Colin Guthrie wrote: Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later. Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for 99.5% of the use cases ... I'd like to question that. Col, Could you have a look at https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2600 ? It appears that starting X on tty1 may be causing problems on single-core machines, as something is starting mingetty on tty1 repeatedly. Also, I'm not sure what the desired functionality ended up as here, but in current cauldron even though there are mingetty's started on tty1-tty6, CTRL-ALT-Fn doesn't budge off the X desktop for any value of n.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Saturday 17 December 2011, Colin Guthrie wrote: > Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later. > Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for > 99.5% of the use cases ... I'd like to question that. You see, machines still have 'init 3' (or did Fedora remove that, too?), there is still people wanting a Linux box (not desktop) not to have X. And that's way more than 0.5% . Or, X may be broken sometimes. So, standardization of tty1=text makes sense, is not just an old habit. Because, you are *always* expecting to find a working tty console on a Linux box[1], while X only launches a bit later, if it can[2]. Putting the one that works in the default place is more reasonable, see? Really, why don't you patch the kernel to start at tty7? you could call that "progress", too. Some things in Linux could improve, but some don't need change. Unix legacy is what makes Linux great[3], IMHO. Part of that legacy (the "old school") is to have failsafe defaults, is to start with a minimal design and then build the extras on top. That's why Unix principles (or "hangovers") have survived so many decades, while other OSs have gone with the wind[4]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy , last of the "Quotes" [1] any machine that has a graphics card and a keyboard. [2] see nvidia, ati [3] back then, software was desinged by engineers. Time has proven that right. [4] Win95-98 had no "hangovers". Then, win2k became POSIX again. -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows!
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zondag 18 december 2011 13:03:56 schreef Colin Guthrie: [...] > > new X sessions are started from the old session, so i vote that > > CTRL+ALT+FX spawns a text-based login. > > They can be, but I'd vote that this should change. e.g. if you have a > setup where you "typically" have two users logged in and session 1 is > always "Dad" and session 2 is always "Mum", if Mum knows that she does > ctl+alt+F2 to switch to her session when she is logged in, however in > order to login, Dad has to already be logged in and either select the > Switch User option, or do so from a logged screen. > > But say there has been a power cut and the machine is rebooted, Dad > hasn't logged in but Mum wants to use "her" session on VT2 because > that's what they are both used to. > > If she presses ctl+alt+f2 when at the login prompt, all she sees is a > text login, this will be confusing to her. However if it spawns a new > graphical login, then she'll appreciate she's not logged in yet and log in. > > So stand by my original suggestion that if you are running a graphical > target, Switching to a TTY to get a "login prompt" should show you a > graphical login prompt. If however you are only in the text level > (multi-user.target) then you should be given text logins. > > Col i think graphical users will use graphical ways of getting to their session (as does my wife), usually the current session is locked and she switches to her own, or she switches to her own, which causes mine to be locked. even i do it like this instead of pressing ctrl+alt+Fx ...
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Am 18.12.2011 16:43, schrieb Johnny A. Solbu: > On Sunday 18 December 2011 13:26, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > >> What happens if a user wants to boot into run level 3? He will get a >> text prompt because neither x nor any DM has started yet - where does >> he land, on VT7? > And don't forget, some users Only use text logins, and don't even have any > graphical desktops installed. Especially blind users do this more often that > non-blind users. So it should be done in a way that if x automatic start on bootup is disabled, you should naturally only get a text login. OT Otherwise, i've seen often mentioned F7 for the current graphical login recently ... Just try it on a mga1 box, press Ctrl+Alt+F7, that's no graphical login. that has been on 8 for quite some time, dating back to Mandriva. Just for reference. /OT
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
18.12.2011 22:53, Frank Griffin kirjutas: Wouldn't the obvious solution be to make the tty assignments easily configurable by the user ? Then pick an agreed default, and let anyone with different requirements modify it. Nop, that's not a good idea. You give people the option to configure and they end up doing so. Every additional configuration option will add complexity. More hassle for QA and maintainers, etc etc. There shoulde be only one way and that's it. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 12/18/2011 02:07 PM, Johnny A. Solbu wrote: On Sunday 18 December 2011 17:54, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: Provided that - the wanted system start to run level 3 goes to a text login in tty7 (as the first text console) - marking "Go to text console" in the DM login takes you to tty7 - a x server failure at system start brings you to a text login in tty7 - usage of SysReq key brings you to a text login in tty7 In short: all activities (wanted or forced by malfunction) to go to a text console should take you to a text login (tty7 or higher). Agreed. Good point. Wouldn't the obvious solution be to make the tty assignments easily configurable by the user ? Then pick an agreed default, and let anyone with different requirements modify it.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Sunday 18 December 2011 17:54, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > Provided that > - the wanted system start to run level 3 goes to a text login in tty7 > (as the first text console) > - marking "Go to text console" in the DM login takes you to tty7 > - a x server failure at system start brings you to a text login in tty7 > - usage of SysReq key brings you to a text login in tty7 > > In short: all activities (wanted or forced by malfunction) to go to a > text console should take you to a text login (tty7 or higher). Agreed. Good point. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/18 Johnny A. Solbu : > On Sunday 18 December 2011 17:23, Sander Lepik wrote: >> F1-F6 for graphical login, F7-F11 for console. > > I can live with that. ;-)= Me too :) Provided that - the wanted system start to run level 3 goes to a text login in tty7 (as the first text console) - marking "Go to text console" in the DM login takes you to tty7 - a x server failure at system start brings you to a text login in tty7 - usage of SysReq key brings you to a text login in tty7 In short: all activities (wanted or forced by malfunction) to go to a text console should take you to a text login (tty7 or higher). Announcement should be made as early as possible to mageia-discuss and the cauldron section in the forum. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Sunday 18 December 2011 17:23, Sander Lepik wrote: > F1-F6 for graphical login, F7-F11 for console. I can live with that. ;-)= -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
18.12.2011 17:43, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Whatever you do, Do Not completely remove the abillity to have a few simultanious text logins alongside a graphical login. The users who depend upon using a text login alongside the graphical environment are more than one should think. F1-F6 for graphical login, F7-F11 for console. Everyone should be happy. Especially new linux users. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Sunday 18 December 2011 13:26, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > What happens if a user wants to boot into run level 3? He will get a > text prompt because neither x nor any DM has started yet - where does > he land, on VT7? And don't forget, some users Only use text logins, and don't even have any graphical desktops installed. Especially blind users do this more often that non-blind users. Adriane Knopper, Klaus Knoppers vife, run a text only environment, and if I understand correctly, uses more than one tty for her daily work. A friend of mine who is blind also does this on a few machines. He started earlyer this year to experiment with running a graphical environment as his main login. But many blind users do not, and stick with the text based only environment, because they are familliar with it. Many of our users heavily depend uppon having multible TTYs for a text based environment, and not a graphical one. Do not forget that, while trying to implement the change. > About displaying a graphical login - when I press Ctrl-Alt-Fn I do > this to go to a text console, not to yet another x screen and I expect > a prompt, not yet another graphical login. I do this from time to time too, to recover from a game crash (ufoai). Sometimes the game crashes on exit, and won't release the screen back to the desktop. The only means of recover is a text login (ctrl-alt-f1), issuing a killall ufoai, logout from text and go back to ctrl-alt-f7. If this prosedure with the proposed change instead will launch another graphical login, and X somehow is blocked for whatever reason, then what? Whatever you do, Do Not completely remove the abillity to have a few simultanious text logins alongside a graphical login. The users who depend upon using a text login alongside the graphical environment are more than one should think. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/18 Colin Guthrie : > 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 18/12/11 11:46 did gyre and gimble: >> Op zondag 18 december 2011 11:54:17 schreef Colin Guthrie: >>> 'Twas brillig, and Anssi Hannula at 18/12/11 10:32 did gyre and gimble: For the record, attached are three alternative [1] untested proof-of-concept patches that make kernel start on vt7. >>> >>> Personally I'm not a fan of sticking to vt7. As I said in an earlier >>> thread, if the primary use case of the machine is graphical, then why >>> start at 7? It's an arbitrary choice that fitted in with other uses when >>> it was first introduced, but these days it's pretty backwards when >>> considered on it's own. The only reason to preserve it is out of habit >>> and I think that this is (generally speaking) the worst possible premise >>> to base decisions on. I mean, if we want to let people use fast user >>> switching easily they first have to learn first about vt switch command >>> ctrl+alt+Fn. Then they have to learn that the first login is on 7 and >>> the subsequent ones are on 8 etc. This doesn't make sense... >>> >>> What *should* happen is that the first one is 1.. the second one is 2 etc. >>> >>> When I'm in gnome, and I switch to tty2 for the first time, rather than >>> getty appearing wouldn't it be better if the gdm prompt appeared for a >>> second graphical login? >>> >>> I'm not suggesting that we ditch text logins completely, but I'm just >>> saying that we should try and make things generally smoother if they >>> user has already opted for a graphical system. >>> >>> Switching to e.g. 7 or 8 should maybe default to providing a text login >>> and gdm should maybe present a "give me a text login" option in which >>> case that X server quits and getty replaces it. >>> >>> Anything unused should timeout and quit (e.g. a getty on tty2 unused >>> should exit and wait and be re-activated as appropriate later. >>> >>> All these things are possible (maybe not without upstream support, but I >>> can ask Ray about the general plans here from a gdm perspective). >>> >>> >>> Just for reference this is how the seat extender USB things work. Little >>> thin clients that you plug into USB that give you a keyboard mouse and >>> display. When you plug it in for the first time, it registers a new seat >>> and then gives you a gdm login prompt. I don't think mutli user should >>> be much different from multi-seat in this regard. >>> BTW, I know fedora uses vt1 for X, but what about other distros, e.g. Ubuntu/Debian? >>> >>> I don't think they default to it but plenty people try to change it to >>> that according to Google. >>> >>> >>> Col >> >> >> theoretically, i'd be in favor of on-demand vt allocation, be it graphical or >> textbased. >> >> i'd be ok with a session starting when going to other vt (default session, be >> it a dm or a textbased login.) > > Yup, this is generally what I'd propose. > >> however, the dm should allow to fall back to >> textbased, but there we run into a problem: >> >> what if X is failing, you can't go back to text-login, so that's a nono >> >> perhaps we could document that we'd preallocate F12 or something for text- >> based emergency, but then noone would know... > > Yeah, as above, I was suggesting that e.g. 7&8 were always text logins. > >> I donno, if we don't have textbased by default, then surely vt1 has to be >> forcably text-based... > >> new X sessions are started from the old session, so i vote that CTRL+ALT+FX >> spawns a text-based login. > > They can be, but I'd vote that this should change. e.g. if you have a > setup where you "typically" have two users logged in and session 1 is > always "Dad" and session 2 is always "Mum", if Mum knows that she does > ctl+alt+F2 to switch to her session when she is logged in, however in > order to login, Dad has to already be logged in and either select the > Switch User option, or do so from a logged screen. > > But say there has been a power cut and the machine is rebooted, Dad > hasn't logged in but Mum wants to use "her" session on VT2 because > that's what they are both used to. > > If she presses ctl+alt+f2 when at the login prompt, all she sees is a > text login, this will be confusing to her. However if it spawns a new > graphical login, then she'll appreciate she's not logged in yet and log in. > > So stand by my original suggestion that if you are running a graphical > target, Switching to a TTY to get a "login prompt" should show you a > graphical login prompt. If however you are only in the text level > (multi-user.target) then you should be given text logins. > What happens in this new scheme if graphical server fails - this is happening more often than you think - this is not clear to me yet. If the x server crashes and the default is starting a DM and graphical login, what will happen then? What happens if a user wants to boot into run level 3? He will get a text prompt because neither x nor any DM has started yet - where does he
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 18/12/11 11:46 did gyre and gimble: > Op zondag 18 december 2011 11:54:17 schreef Colin Guthrie: >> 'Twas brillig, and Anssi Hannula at 18/12/11 10:32 did gyre and gimble: >>> For the record, attached are three alternative [1] untested >>> proof-of-concept patches that make kernel start on vt7. >> >> Personally I'm not a fan of sticking to vt7. As I said in an earlier >> thread, if the primary use case of the machine is graphical, then why >> start at 7? It's an arbitrary choice that fitted in with other uses when >> it was first introduced, but these days it's pretty backwards when >> considered on it's own. The only reason to preserve it is out of habit >> and I think that this is (generally speaking) the worst possible premise >> to base decisions on. I mean, if we want to let people use fast user >> switching easily they first have to learn first about vt switch command >> ctrl+alt+Fn. Then they have to learn that the first login is on 7 and >> the subsequent ones are on 8 etc. This doesn't make sense... >> >> What *should* happen is that the first one is 1.. the second one is 2 etc. >> >> When I'm in gnome, and I switch to tty2 for the first time, rather than >> getty appearing wouldn't it be better if the gdm prompt appeared for a >> second graphical login? >> >> I'm not suggesting that we ditch text logins completely, but I'm just >> saying that we should try and make things generally smoother if they >> user has already opted for a graphical system. >> >> Switching to e.g. 7 or 8 should maybe default to providing a text login >> and gdm should maybe present a "give me a text login" option in which >> case that X server quits and getty replaces it. >> >> Anything unused should timeout and quit (e.g. a getty on tty2 unused >> should exit and wait and be re-activated as appropriate later. >> >> All these things are possible (maybe not without upstream support, but I >> can ask Ray about the general plans here from a gdm perspective). >> >> >> Just for reference this is how the seat extender USB things work. Little >> thin clients that you plug into USB that give you a keyboard mouse and >> display. When you plug it in for the first time, it registers a new seat >> and then gives you a gdm login prompt. I don't think mutli user should >> be much different from multi-seat in this regard. >> >>> BTW, I know fedora uses vt1 for X, but what about other distros, e.g. >>> Ubuntu/Debian? >> >> I don't think they default to it but plenty people try to change it to >> that according to Google. >> >> >> Col > > > theoretically, i'd be in favor of on-demand vt allocation, be it graphical or > textbased. > > i'd be ok with a session starting when going to other vt (default session, be > it a dm or a textbased login.) Yup, this is generally what I'd propose. > however, the dm should allow to fall back to > textbased, but there we run into a problem: > > what if X is failing, you can't go back to text-login, so that's a nono > > perhaps we could document that we'd preallocate F12 or something for text- > based emergency, but then noone would know... Yeah, as above, I was suggesting that e.g. 7&8 were always text logins. > I donno, if we don't have textbased by default, then surely vt1 has to be > forcably text-based... > new X sessions are started from the old session, so i vote that CTRL+ALT+FX > spawns a text-based login. They can be, but I'd vote that this should change. e.g. if you have a setup where you "typically" have two users logged in and session 1 is always "Dad" and session 2 is always "Mum", if Mum knows that she does ctl+alt+F2 to switch to her session when she is logged in, however in order to login, Dad has to already be logged in and either select the Switch User option, or do so from a logged screen. But say there has been a power cut and the machine is rebooted, Dad hasn't logged in but Mum wants to use "her" session on VT2 because that's what they are both used to. If she presses ctl+alt+f2 when at the login prompt, all she sees is a text login, this will be confusing to her. However if it spawns a new graphical login, then she'll appreciate she's not logged in yet and log in. So stand by my original suggestion that if you are running a graphical target, Switching to a TTY to get a "login prompt" should show you a graphical login prompt. If however you are only in the text level (multi-user.target) then you should be given text logins. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zondag 18 december 2011 11:54:17 schreef Colin Guthrie: > 'Twas brillig, and Anssi Hannula at 18/12/11 10:32 did gyre and gimble: > > For the record, attached are three alternative [1] untested > > proof-of-concept patches that make kernel start on vt7. > > Personally I'm not a fan of sticking to vt7. As I said in an earlier > thread, if the primary use case of the machine is graphical, then why > start at 7? It's an arbitrary choice that fitted in with other uses when > it was first introduced, but these days it's pretty backwards when > considered on it's own. The only reason to preserve it is out of habit > and I think that this is (generally speaking) the worst possible premise > to base decisions on. I mean, if we want to let people use fast user > switching easily they first have to learn first about vt switch command > ctrl+alt+Fn. Then they have to learn that the first login is on 7 and > the subsequent ones are on 8 etc. This doesn't make sense... > > What *should* happen is that the first one is 1.. the second one is 2 etc. > > When I'm in gnome, and I switch to tty2 for the first time, rather than > getty appearing wouldn't it be better if the gdm prompt appeared for a > second graphical login? > > I'm not suggesting that we ditch text logins completely, but I'm just > saying that we should try and make things generally smoother if they > user has already opted for a graphical system. > > Switching to e.g. 7 or 8 should maybe default to providing a text login > and gdm should maybe present a "give me a text login" option in which > case that X server quits and getty replaces it. > > Anything unused should timeout and quit (e.g. a getty on tty2 unused > should exit and wait and be re-activated as appropriate later. > > All these things are possible (maybe not without upstream support, but I > can ask Ray about the general plans here from a gdm perspective). > > > Just for reference this is how the seat extender USB things work. Little > thin clients that you plug into USB that give you a keyboard mouse and > display. When you plug it in for the first time, it registers a new seat > and then gives you a gdm login prompt. I don't think mutli user should > be much different from multi-seat in this regard. > > > BTW, I know fedora uses vt1 for X, but what about other distros, e.g. > > Ubuntu/Debian? > > I don't think they default to it but plenty people try to change it to > that according to Google. > > > Col theoretically, i'd be in favor of on-demand vt allocation, be it graphical or textbased. i'd be ok with a session starting when going to other vt (default session, be it a dm or a textbased login.) however, the dm should allow to fall back to textbased, but there we run into a problem: what if X is failing, you can't go back to text-login, so that's a nono perhaps we could document that we'd preallocate F12 or something for text- based emergency, but then noone would know... I donno, if we don't have textbased by default, then surely vt1 has to be forcably text-based... new X sessions are started from the old session, so i vote that CTRL+ALT+FX spawns a text-based login.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Anssi Hannula at 18/12/11 10:32 did gyre and gimble: > For the record, attached are three alternative [1] untested > proof-of-concept patches that make kernel start on vt7. Personally I'm not a fan of sticking to vt7. As I said in an earlier thread, if the primary use case of the machine is graphical, then why start at 7? It's an arbitrary choice that fitted in with other uses when it was first introduced, but these days it's pretty backwards when considered on it's own. The only reason to preserve it is out of habit and I think that this is (generally speaking) the worst possible premise to base decisions on. I mean, if we want to let people use fast user switching easily they first have to learn first about vt switch command ctrl+alt+Fn. Then they have to learn that the first login is on 7 and the subsequent ones are on 8 etc. This doesn't make sense... What *should* happen is that the first one is 1.. the second one is 2 etc. When I'm in gnome, and I switch to tty2 for the first time, rather than getty appearing wouldn't it be better if the gdm prompt appeared for a second graphical login? I'm not suggesting that we ditch text logins completely, but I'm just saying that we should try and make things generally smoother if they user has already opted for a graphical system. Switching to e.g. 7 or 8 should maybe default to providing a text login and gdm should maybe present a "give me a text login" option in which case that X server quits and getty replaces it. Anything unused should timeout and quit (e.g. a getty on tty2 unused should exit and wait and be re-activated as appropriate later. All these things are possible (maybe not without upstream support, but I can ask Ray about the general plans here from a gdm perspective). Just for reference this is how the seat extender USB things work. Little thin clients that you plug into USB that give you a keyboard mouse and display. When you plug it in for the first time, it registers a new seat and then gives you a gdm login prompt. I don't think mutli user should be much different from multi-seat in this regard. > BTW, I know fedora uses vt1 for X, but what about other distros, e.g. > Ubuntu/Debian? I don't think they default to it but plenty people try to change it to that according to Google. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 17.12.2011 17:27, Anssi Hannula wrote:
> On 16.12.2011 20:16, Colin Guthrie wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default.
>>
>> So if you want a text login shell, make sure you go to tty2!
>>
>> I've not actually updated it for sysvinit now I think about it, so I'll
>> have to update the default inittab, but the principle is the same. We
>> want X there, not a login.
>
> I wonder why that is needed...
>
> If it is to prevent flickering when switching tty1->tty7, can't we just
> e.g. make the kernel use tty7 by default if needed?
For the record, attached are three alternative [1] untested
proof-of-concept patches that make kernel start on vt7.
It doesn't seem to be as simple as I had hoped, but if this is something
we want to do, I can come up with cleaner versions and see what upstream
thinks.
BTW, I know fedora uses vt1 for X, but what about other distros, e.g.
Ubuntu/Debian?
[1] by default only the first vt is initialized on early boot, the rest
are initialized on-demand. Since vt7 is not initialized, the patches
take different approaches: (1) allocate 7 vt's on early boot, (2)
allocate vt7 in addition to vt1, (3) only allocate vt7
--
Anssi Hannula
>From 3647fb1d98ef0bbd9fac4ea44a868835bada0a69 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Anssi Hannula
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:56:38 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] set default console as vt7 (proof-of-concept)
---
drivers/tty/vt/vt.c |2 +-
include/linux/vt.h |2 +-
2 files changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
diff --git a/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c b/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
index e716839..4c2782c 100644
--- a/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
+++ b/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
@@ -2923,7 +2923,7 @@ static int __init con_init(void)
vc_init(vc, vc->vc_rows, vc->vc_cols,
currcons || !vc->vc_sw->con_save_screen);
}
- currcons = fg_console = 0;
+ currcons = fg_console = 6;
master_display_fg = vc = vc_cons[currcons].d;
set_origin(vc);
save_screen(vc);
diff --git a/include/linux/vt.h b/include/linux/vt.h
index 30a8dd9..663308a 100644
--- a/include/linux/vt.h
+++ b/include/linux/vt.h
@@ -6,7 +6,7 @@
* These constants are also useful for user-level apps (e.g., VC
* resizing).
*/
-#define MIN_NR_CONSOLES 1 /* must be at least 1 */
+#define MIN_NR_CONSOLES 7 /* must be at least 1 */
#define MAX_NR_CONSOLES 63 /* serial lines start at 64 */
#define MAX_NR_USER_CONSOLES 63 /* must be root to allocate above this */
/* Note: the ioctl VT_GETSTATE does not work for
--
1.7.7.2
>From 96d4ca3852279b0ae85b8b4ea1031fda2574d610 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Anssi Hannula
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:16:18 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] set default console as vt7 (proof-of-concept)
---
drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c |1 +
drivers/tty/vt/vt.c| 24
2 files changed, 17 insertions(+), 8 deletions(-)
diff --git a/drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c b/drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c
index 7a367ff..cdab4d5 100644
--- a/drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c
+++ b/drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c
@@ -662,5 +662,6 @@ int __init vcs_init(void)
device_create(vc_class, NULL, MKDEV(VCS_MAJOR, 128), NULL, "vcsa");
for (i = 0; i < MIN_NR_CONSOLES; i++)
vcs_make_sysfs(i);
+ vcs_make_sysfs(6);
return 0;
}
diff --git a/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c b/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
index e716839..72733ce 100644
--- a/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
+++ b/drivers/tty/vt/vt.c
@@ -2871,6 +2871,19 @@ static void vc_init(struct vc_data *vc, unsigned int rows,
reset_terminal(vc, do_clear);
}
+static void __init con_init_early_cons(unsigned int cons)
+{
+ struct vc_data *vc;
+
+ vc_cons[cons].d = vc = kzalloc(sizeof(struct vc_data), GFP_NOWAIT);
+ INIT_WORK(&vc_cons[cons].SAK_work, vc_SAK);
+ tty_port_init(&vc->port);
+ visual_init(vc, cons, 1);
+ vc->vc_screenbuf = kzalloc(vc->vc_screenbuf_size, GFP_NOWAIT);
+ vc_init(vc, vc->vc_rows, vc->vc_cols,
+ cons || !vc->vc_sw->con_save_screen);
+}
+
/*
* This routine initializes console interrupts, and does nothing
* else. If you want the screen to clear, call tty_write with
@@ -2915,15 +2928,10 @@ static int __init con_init(void)
}
for (currcons = 0; currcons < MIN_NR_CONSOLES; currcons++) {
- vc_cons[currcons].d = vc = kzalloc(sizeof(struct vc_data), GFP_NOWAIT);
- INIT_WORK(&vc_cons[currcons].SAK_work, vc_SAK);
- tty_port_init(&vc->port);
- visual_init(vc, currcons, 1);
- vc->vc_screenbuf = kzalloc(vc->vc_screenbuf_size, GFP_NOWAIT);
- vc_init(vc, vc->vc_rows, vc->vc_cols,
- currcons || !vc->vc_sw->con_save_screen);
+ con_init_early_cons(currcons);
}
- currcons = fg_console = 0;
+ con_init_early_cons(6);
+ currcons = fg_console = 6;
master_display_fg = vc = vc_cons[currcons].d;
set_origin(vc);
save_screen(vc);
--
1.7.7.2
>From 83cb8160a3bd07138adc6a8938d6067f44a6cf22 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Anssi Hannula
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:24:04 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] set default console as vt7 (proof-of-concept)
---
drivers/tty/vt/vc_screen.c |3 +--
drivers/tty/vt/vt.c|8 -
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Anssi Hannula wrote: > On 16.12.2011 20:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: >> Hi >> >> Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. >> >> So if you want a text login shell, make sure you go to tty2! >> >> I've not actually updated it for sysvinit now I think about it, so I'll >> have to update the default inittab, but the principle is the same. We >> want X there, not a login. > > I wonder why that is needed... > > If it is to prevent flickering when switching tty1->tty7, can't we just > e.g. make the kernel use tty7 by default if needed? +1 Also, what happens when you boot to multi-user.target instead of graphical.target?
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 18:09:48 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: > 2011/12/17 Thierry Vignaud : [...] > > you're kidding... > > If you read some other comments here you think they are kidding, too? > As a special service I will tell you next time when I'm kidding. if ever :-)
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 14:10:37 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: > 2011/12/17 Maarten Vanraes : > > if we get such a dynamic scheme, that would be nice. but that will likely > > only work on systemd... what about sysvinit? it was still supposed to be > > the default for mga2 ... > > > > but we can test, and work on that... if it doesn't work with sysvinit > > properly, i still vote for returning to F7 ... but we can change that for > > beta release... > > Yes. > - test on developer side until the questions are answered, AFTER that > - announce and explain in Errata, discuss mailing list, forum, AFTER that > - start to implement into cauldron. > > A bit more is needed than "Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now > starts on tty1 by default." > But I'd rather favor the solution of the related bug to avoid this > whole "workaround" otoh, i can understand if people want to temporarily put things in cauldron, so they are tested. and likely he did test, but didn't think as far ahead as the rest of us.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Kamil Rytarowski at 17/12/11 20:30 did gyre and gimble: > W dniu 17.12.2011 21:24, Colin Guthrie pisze: >> 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 17/12/11 10:58 did gyre and >> gimble: >>> About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But >>> the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL >>> documentations. >> [..] >> >> That's my take on it. >> >> Col >> >> > Hello, I have tested in cauldron and it's working fine. Please add an > end message at the end of the boot-procedure "Bott procedure succeed. > Hit ALT-F2 for text log-in.". Some people use minimal systems for simple > tests - I'm doing it for my packages in a pure environment. I'll work something out... perhaps starting getty on tty1 automatically if e.g. prefdm does not run a graphical login. (this would be easy enough to hack in). Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
W dniu 17.12.2011 21:24, Colin Guthrie pisze: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 17/12/11 10:58 did gyre and gimble: About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL documentations. [..] That's my take on it. Col Hello, I have tested in cauldron and it's working fine. Please add an end message at the end of the boot-procedure "Bott procedure succeed. Hit ALT-F2 for text log-in.". Some people use minimal systems for simple tests - I'm doing it for my packages in a pure environment. Regards!
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Colin Guthrie at 17/12/11 20:24 did gyre and gimble: > 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 17/12/11 10:58 did gyre and gimble: >> About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But >> the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL >> documentations. > > Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later. > Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for > 99.5% of the use cases and we have to move with the times. There is no > point keeping this static for the sake of "that's how it's been done > before". This is the kind of mentality that block progress. > > If we don't want progress and if we don't want to shake of some of the > hangovers from the old Unix days, we wouldn't have udev, we wouldn't > have systemd and we wouldn't have numerous other bits. > > The same arguments can easily be applied to other areas (people expect > system service scripts to be in /etc/init.d/ etc.). We need to let it go. > > As graphical logins are the norm, we should be be catering to them > first, and leave text logins for special cases. > > That's my take on it. Oh and I forgot to say Fedora have been doing this for a long time and other distros have also been experimenting with it too, so this is very much not something we're going out on a limb to do, but we are trying to push things forward a bit. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 17/12/11 10:58 did gyre and gimble: > About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But > the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL > documentations. Back in the day, text logins were the norm, graphical logins came later. Text logins got ttys 1-7... These days they are pretty much useless for 99.5% of the use cases and we have to move with the times. There is no point keeping this static for the sake of "that's how it's been done before". This is the kind of mentality that block progress. If we don't want progress and if we don't want to shake of some of the hangovers from the old Unix days, we wouldn't have udev, we wouldn't have systemd and we wouldn't have numerous other bits. The same arguments can easily be applied to other areas (people expect system service scripts to be in /etc/init.d/ etc.). We need to let it go. As graphical logins are the norm, we should be be catering to them first, and leave text logins for special cases. That's my take on it. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
17.12.2011 19:14, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Another friend of mine which is not in any of these lists, and is blind, was surprised to hear about this change, and was wondering whether this was a Mageia specifi change. I said I believe it was. Well, it's not. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Saturday 17 December 2011 17:46, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > On 17 December 2011 11:26, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really > > justifies such a strong change? I was thinking the same thing, but hold it to myself. Another friend of mine which is not in any of these lists, and is blind, was surprised to hear about this change, and was wondering whether this was a Mageia specifi change. I said I believe it was. > you're kidding... No, we're not. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/17 Thierry Vignaud : > On 17 December 2011 11:26, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > >> May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who >> have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to >> change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm >> thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros, >> having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia. >> I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation >> - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like >> Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1. > > quite a lot more end users have tested other distro such as fedora so I > think there're now quite a lot more users who expect x11 on tty1 than > on those who expect it on tty7 Ah, is Fedora also doing this? I haven't heard that before. >> So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really >> justifies such a strong change? > > you're kidding... If you read some other comments here you think they are kidding, too? As a special service I will tell you next time when I'm kidding. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 17 December 2011 11:26, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who > have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to > change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm > thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros, > having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia. > I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation > - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like > Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1. quite a lot more end users have tested other distro such as fedora so I think there're now quite a lot more users who expect x11 on tty1 than on those who expect it on tty7 > So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really > justifies such a strong change? you're kidding...
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Saturday, December 17, 2011 03:54:33 AM P. Christeas wrote: > On Saturday 17 December 2011, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > That's one matter, the other one will be teaching all users who were > > used to the current scheme, > > ++ > > Don't underestimate the power of habits, versus the 'flicker' > inconvenience. > > It is a long habit, it is written in all How-To's, many also have panic > scripts that do 'chvt 1' when something goes wrong[1] > > I'd say, a bug in plymouth/systemd/whatever needs to be fixed as a bug, not > trigger such a change of habits and/or standardisation. > > Please don't break our text consoles. We may be spending 99.9% of our time > in X, but this 0,1% that we need the ttys is priceless! > > [1] remember, a few years ago.. ? the acpi power trick.. +1 -- Best regards Thomas Spuhler
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On 16.12.2011 20:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: > Hi > > Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. > > So if you want a text login shell, make sure you go to tty2! > > I've not actually updated it for sysvinit now I think about it, so I'll > have to update the default inittab, but the principle is the same. We > want X there, not a login. I wonder why that is needed... If it is to prevent flickering when switching tty1->tty7, can't we just e.g. make the kernel use tty7 by default if needed? -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/17 Maarten Vanraes : > > if we get such a dynamic scheme, that would be nice. but that will likely only > work on systemd... what about sysvinit? it was still supposed to be the > default for mga2 ... > > but we can test, and work on that... if it doesn't work with sysvinit > properly, i still vote for returning to F7 ... but we can change that for beta > release... Yes. - test on developer side until the questions are answered, AFTER that - announce and explain in Errata, discuss mailing list, forum, AFTER that - start to implement into cauldron. A bit more is needed than "Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default." But I'd rather favor the solution of the related bug to avoid this whole "workaround" -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 11:58:31 schreef Wolfgang Bornath:
> 2011/12/17 Florian Hubold :
> > Am 17.12.2011 11:26, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath:
> >> 2011/12/17 Sander Lepik :
> >>> 17.12.2011 12:10, Wolfgang Bornath kirjutas:
> I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it
> is mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test.
> >>>
> >>> People will get used to it rather fast.
> >>
> >> May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who
> >> have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to
> >> change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm
> >> thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros,
> >> having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia.
> >> I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation
> >> - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like
> >> Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1.
> >>
> >> So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really
> >> justifies such a strong change?
> >
> > Well, maybe you haven't heard of the related problems yet:
> > https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Errata#Xserver_crashes
>
> Of course I read that part of the Errata but did not relate it to the
> matter of this thread - how could I as a non-developer? The relation
> has not been mentioned in the errata.
>
> As I wrote in my first mail I am not really against this change if
> there is a reason. There seems to be a reason (as you say), so it's
> ok. But still I think all open questions (especially the one about the
> situation of a crashing or failing x server) need to be addressed
> before the change is made in cauldron to be tested by a broader
> userbase. And I still think it needs to be announced all over the
> place when the change will be implemented.
it does need to be announced all over the place.
> About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But
> the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL
> documentations (even in the generic books about "Learning Linux"), a
> standard like the SAA menue standard ("File" on the left, "Help" on
> the right) or the "F1 opens Help" standard. Therefore changing this is
> a bit more than usual changes between versions.
well, that may be true, but not anymore on all distros and during installation
times not anymore as well...
if we get such a dynamic scheme, that would be nice. but that will likely only
work on systemd... what about sysvinit? it was still supposed to be the
default for mga2 ...
but we can test, and work on that... if it doesn't work with sysvinit
properly, i still vote for returning to F7 ... but we can change that for beta
release...
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Saturday 17 December 2011, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > That's one matter, the other one will be teaching all users who were > used to the current scheme, ++ Don't underestimate the power of habits, versus the 'flicker' inconvenience. It is a long habit, it is written in all How-To's, many also have panic scripts that do 'chvt 1' when something goes wrong[1] I'd say, a bug in plymouth/systemd/whatever needs to be fixed as a bug, not trigger such a change of habits and/or standardisation. Please don't break our text consoles. We may be spending 99.9% of our time in X, but this 0,1% that we need the ttys is priceless! [1] remember, a few years ago.. ? the acpi power trick.. -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows!
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/17 Florian Hubold :
> Am 17.12.2011 11:26, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath:
>> 2011/12/17 Sander Lepik :
>>> 17.12.2011 12:10, Wolfgang Bornath kirjutas:
I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it is
mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test.
>>> People will get used to it rather fast.
>> May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who
>> have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to
>> change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm
>> thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros,
>> having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia.
>> I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation
>> - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like
>> Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1.
>>
>> So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really
>> justifies such a strong change?
>>
> Well, maybe you haven't heard of the related problems yet:
> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Errata#Xserver_crashes
Of course I read that part of the Errata but did not relate it to the
matter of this thread - how could I as a non-developer? The relation
has not been mentioned in the errata.
As I wrote in my first mail I am not really against this change if
there is a reason. There seems to be a reason (as you say), so it's
ok. But still I think all open questions (especially the one about the
situation of a crashing or failing x server) need to be addressed
before the change is made in cauldron to be tested by a broader
userbase. And I still think it needs to be announced all over the
place when the change will be implemented.
About the question how hard it is to press another key: not hard. But
the Ctrl-Alt-F1 has been a standard in ALL distributions and ALL
documentations (even in the generic books about "Learning Linux"), a
standard like the SAA menue standard ("File" on the left, "Help" on
the right) or the "F1 opens Help" standard. Therefore changing this is
a bit more than usual changes between versions.
--
wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Am 17.12.2011 11:26, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: > 2011/12/17 Sander Lepik : >> 17.12.2011 12:10, Wolfgang Bornath kirjutas: >>> I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it is >>> mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test. >> People will get used to it rather fast. > May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who > have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to > change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm > thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros, > having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia. > I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation > - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like > Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1. > > So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really > justifies such a strong change? > Well, maybe you haven't heard of the related problems yet: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Errata#Xserver_crashes So what would be better: desktop session crashing when you press the enter key or ttys available on different keys? How hard is it to just press a different key or keep switching until you hit a tty? That's what i do when i forget on which key the damn x session was to get back to it. :) Which is also differing between distros, some have x session on tty 1, some on 7 and Mandriva/Mageia since some time on 8, due to plymouth and the handover to the DM, IIRC.
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/17 Sander Lepik : > 17.12.2011 12:10, Wolfgang Bornath kirjutas: >> >> I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it is >> mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test. > > People will get used to it rather fast. May be yes, may be no. I'm thinking about those computer adepts who have spent 10-15 years with the Ctrl-Alt-F1 combo, is it so easy to change a grown habit which is like the "Red = Stop!" paradigma? I'm thinking also about all those who spend time with different distros, having to change one of the most common procedures just for Mageia. I'm thinking of rather new Linuxers who follow advice in documentation - ALL docs on the net talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1, all generic books like Linux in a Nutshell or others talk about Ctrl-Alt-F1. So, my question is whether a second's flickering during startup really justifies such a strong change? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
17.12.2011 12:10, Wolfgang Bornath kirjutas: I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it is mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test. People will get used to it rather fast. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
2011/12/17 Maarten Vanraes : > Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 10:52:52 schreef Florian Hubold: >> Am 17.12.2011 02:26, schrieb Maarten Vanraes: >> > Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 02:03:55 schreef Colin Guthrie: >> >> 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 17/12/11 00:50 did gyre and gimble: >> >>> how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and >> >>> next session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's >> >>> then? >> >> >> >> 2nd session starts on tty7 (i.e. the next available tty). Not exactly >> >> super intuitive I agree so open to suggestions here... i.e. one option >> >> would be to only start txt ttys on 7 & 8 (two should be enough right?) >> >> leaving tty 1 through 6 for graphical logins. >> > >> > if could be nice if they were "on-demand" ? >> >> Couldn't they be socket-activated which is one of the killer features >> of systemd? Like with cups after Lennarts patches, which now only >> starts on-demand? > [...] > > that would be nice, but what if you do a rapid ctrl+alt+F2-F8, all your stuff > will be tty, nothing left for sessions? That's one matter, the other one will be teaching all users who were used to the current scheme, many of them using it for many years. Especially if we do not announce it with big fat red letters! Still there will be the fast C-ALT-F1-6 just from automatic procedure, people will be more annoyed by that than by a little flickering for a second during system start. I really beg to think the whole matter over again, at least until it is mature enough to be implemented in cauldron for practical test. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 10:52:52 schreef Florian Hubold: > Am 17.12.2011 02:26, schrieb Maarten Vanraes: > > Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 02:03:55 schreef Colin Guthrie: > >> 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 17/12/11 00:50 did gyre and gimble: > >>> how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and > >>> next session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's > >>> then? > >> > >> 2nd session starts on tty7 (i.e. the next available tty). Not exactly > >> super intuitive I agree so open to suggestions here... i.e. one option > >> would be to only start txt ttys on 7 & 8 (two should be enough right?) > >> leaving tty 1 through 6 for graphical logins. > > > > if could be nice if they were "on-demand" ? > > Couldn't they be socket-activated which is one of the killer features > of systemd? Like with cups after Lennarts patches, which now only > starts on-demand? [...] that would be nice, but what if you do a rapid ctrl+alt+F2-F8, all your stuff will be tty, nothing left for sessions? and what if you log into tty, and later log out again? perhaps if it's not logged in or shown, it should disappear again, freeing up a spot for graphical sessions?
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Am 17.12.2011 02:26, schrieb Maarten Vanraes: > Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 02:03:55 schreef Colin Guthrie: >> 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 17/12/11 00:50 did gyre and gimble: >>> how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and next >>> session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's then? >> 2nd session starts on tty7 (i.e. the next available tty). Not exactly >> super intuitive I agree so open to suggestions here... i.e. one option >> would be to only start txt ttys on 7 & 8 (two should be enough right?) >> leaving tty 1 through 6 for graphical logins. > if could be nice if they were "on-demand" ? Couldn't they be socket-activated which is one of the killer features of systemd? Like with cups after Lennarts patches, which now only starts on-demand? > >>> what happens if X doesn't start on tty1 and tries to fall back to >>> console? will we have a black screen? >> Dunno about that one. We could maybe start a getty automatically on tty1 >> if this happens... will have to test how this would work in practice. > would be nice to know what happens... >
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op zaterdag 17 december 2011 02:03:55 schreef Colin Guthrie: > 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 17/12/11 00:50 did gyre and gimble: > > how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and next > > session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's then? > > 2nd session starts on tty7 (i.e. the next available tty). Not exactly > super intuitive I agree so open to suggestions here... i.e. one option > would be to only start txt ttys on 7 & 8 (two should be enough right?) > leaving tty 1 through 6 for graphical logins. if could be nice if they were "on-demand" ? > > what happens if X doesn't start on tty1 and tries to fall back to > > console? will we have a black screen? > > Dunno about that one. We could maybe start a getty automatically on tty1 > if this happens... will have to test how this would work in practice. would be nice to know what happens...
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 17/12/11 00:50 did gyre and gimble: > how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and next > session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's then? 2nd session starts on tty7 (i.e. the next available tty). Not exactly super intuitive I agree so open to suggestions here... i.e. one option would be to only start txt ttys on 7 & 8 (two should be enough right?) leaving tty 1 through 6 for graphical logins. > what happens if X doesn't start on tty1 and tries to fall back to console? > will we have a black screen? Dunno about that one. We could maybe start a getty automatically on tty1 if this happens... will have to test how this would work in practice. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
Op vrijdag 16 december 2011 23:22:23 schreef Colin Guthrie: > 'Twas brillig, and Sander Lepik at 16/12/11 21:40 did gyre and gimble: > > 16.12.2011 23:14, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: > >> On Friday 16 December 2011 19:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: > >>> Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. > >> > >> Why this change? > > > > Less flickering at boot AFAIK. > > That's the plan... Should be able to achieve a nice fade from the boot > graphics to the login manager. > > Also it seems there have been lots of crash related problems that this > update appears to address too. > > Col i guess it takes a bit getting used to, but otoh, the switching back and forth did bother me a bit before... but. how does this relate to multiple sessions? if it starts at tty1 and next session starts at tty2 and so forth, were are the textbased tty's then? what happens if X doesn't start on tty1 and tries to fall back to console? will we have a black screen?
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
'Twas brillig, and Sander Lepik at 16/12/11 21:40 did gyre and gimble: > 16.12.2011 23:14, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: >> On Friday 16 December 2011 19:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: >>> Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. >> Why this change? >> > Less flickering at boot AFAIK. That's the plan... Should be able to achieve a nice fade from the boot graphics to the login manager. Also it seems there have been lots of crash related problems that this update appears to address too. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
16.12.2011 23:14, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: On Friday 16 December 2011 19:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. Why this change? Less flickering at boot AFAIK. -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] ANN: X11 now starts on tty1
On Friday 16 December 2011 19:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: > Just in case you didn't notice, X11 now starts on tty1 by default. Why this change? -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
