Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 12/13/19 9:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP, 
recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains 
that retry successfully more than a few times.


The bigger senders are doing things now (more than ever) that they 
weren't doing 15+ years ago.  Now farms of servers will try to contact 
you.  The message may first try from one IP, then from another IP, then 
from a 3rd  It may eventually try from the same IP and make it through.


I think most grey list solutions have an option to specify the network 
(frequently configured a a /24) for the sending IP.  This significantly 
helps with different servers in the same server farm trying to resend 
messages.


Another option that doesn't have this (state based) limitation is 
nolisting.  (TCP RST from first MX and subsequent MX(s) accept email.)




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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Keith Seyffarth]

"Stephen J. Turnbull"  writes:

> Chromatest J. Pantsmaker writes:
>
>  > I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those
>  > test messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.
>
> If the GMail address used to send is the same as the address
> subscribed to the test list, you won't see it because GMail
> deduplicates aggressively.  There is no way to fix this in GMail.  If
> you are testing from GMail you *must* use a separate address as the
> recipient.

Also, if you are testing greylisting from a GMail account, GMail tends
to retry messages from another random outgoing server, so it may take
considerable time before GMail happens to randomly pick an outgoing
server it has already used and greylisting can confirm the same message
from the same user at the same server... (It would be nice if GMail
would assign an outgoing message to one server and just retry from
there)

Keith

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Chromatest J. Pantsmaker writes:

 > I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those
 > test messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.

If the GMail address used to send is the same as the address
subscribed to the test list, you won't see it because GMail
deduplicates aggressively.  There is no way to fix this in GMail.  If
you are testing from GMail you *must* use a separate address as the
recipient.

Check the Mailman and the Postfix logs to see what your Mailman host
thinks is happening.

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Chromatest J. Pantsmaker]

I had sent some test email from gmail and several hours later those test
messages didn't pass.  Maybe I goofed something along the way.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 9:04 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 12/13/19 7:23 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
> > implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the
> spam,
> > but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!
>
>
> If postgrey is working as it should, it will initially respond to all
> mail with a 4xx (retryable) status. The theory is spambots won't retry,
> but legitimate MTAs will, usually after a delay of up to 15 minutes or
> so, but some more than an hour.
>
> As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP,
> recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains
> that retry successfully more than a few times.
>
> Thus, after time, the delayed mail will become less frequent.
>
> --
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> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/13/19 7:23 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
> implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the spam,
> but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!


If postgrey is working as it should, it will initially respond to all
mail with a 4xx (retryable) status. The theory is spambots won't retry,
but legitimate MTAs will, usually after a delay of up to 15 minutes or
so, but some more than an hour.

As postgrey learns, it will remember triplets (sender, sending IP,
recipient) and not delay them and in addition will whitelist domains
that retry successfully more than a few times.

Thus, after time, the delayed mail will become less frequent.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Chromatest J. Pantsmaker]

I think I'll look into this next.  It seems that the postgrey
implementation that I followed from a previous email has stopped the spam,
but it's also stopped all other mail also!  doh!

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 6:40 PM Gary R. Schmidt  wrote:

> On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
>  > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem
> with
>  > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
> They're
>  > non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to
> me, the
>  > list owner which floods my inbox.
>  >
>  > I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
>  >
>
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
>  >
>  >
>  > Is that the best way to do what I need?
>  > If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
>  > My system:
>  > Mailman 2.1.20
>  > Apache2 / 2.4.18
>  > Postfix 3.1.0
>  > Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
>
> With Postfix, you should activate the built-in SPAM control, "postscreen".
>
> The details on how to use it are in POSTCSCREEN_README when you install
> from source, I don't where/if Ubuntu puts it, or if they build it for
> their distro, but it just works.  "man postscreen" should get you started.
>
> I have it checking spamhaus.org, spamcop.net, and barracudacentral.org
> for blacklisting.
>
> I sometimes add IP ranges to "/etc/postfix/postscreeen_access.cidr",
> (they've mainly been from Brazil, Korea, and China), when I notice a new
> source that the blacklists haven't yet found, blocking out vast swathes
> of the internet doesn't trouble me.
>
> Cheers,
> Garyb-)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week. 
They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to 
me, the

> list owner which floods my inbox.
>
> I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
> 
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show

>
>
> Is that the best way to do what I need?
> If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
> My system:
> Mailman 2.1.20
> Apache2 / 2.4.18
> Postfix 3.1.0
> Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS

With Postfix, you should activate the built-in SPAM control, "postscreen".

The details on how to use it are in POSTCSCREEN_README when you install 
from source, I don't where/if Ubuntu puts it, or if they build it for 
their distro, but it just works.  "man postscreen" should get you started.


I have it checking spamhaus.org, spamcop.net, and barracudacentral.org 
for blacklisting.


I sometimes add IP ranges to "/etc/postfix/postscreeen_access.cidr", 
(they've mainly been from Brazil, Korea, and China), when I notice a new 
source that the blacklists haven't yet found, blocking out vast swathes 
of the internet doesn't trouble me.


Cheers,
Garyb-)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[David Gibbs via Mailman-Users]

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:16 AM Chromatest J. Pantsmaker <
chromat...@chromatest.net> wrote:

> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
> list owner which floods my inbox.


I use RBL’s and the Spamassassin milter  in Postfix with great success

David

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Chromatest J. Pantsmaker]

Yeah, I wanted to avoid that because non-subscribers often email the list
trying to contact the list admins or organization representatives instead.
I've tried the first link above up through step 4.  Step 5 is adding an
additional filter to Spam Assassin and doesn't appear to be directly
connected to the first four steps.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:18 AM Richard Damon 
wrote:

> On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
> They're
> > non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me,
> the
> > list owner which floods my inbox.
> >
> > I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
> >
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
> >
> >
> > Is that the best way to do what I need?
> > If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
> > My system:
> > Mailman 2.1.20
> > Apache2 / 2.4.18
> > Postfix 3.1.0
> > Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
>
> If you can't get earlier filtering to get the rate low enough, you may
> need to just change the option
>
> Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit
> action is defined.
> (Details for generic_nonmember_action)
>
> To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
> will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
> should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.
>
> --
> Richard Damon
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 12/13/2019 10:17 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.


That's another good/final option, drop non-list-member email into the 
bit-bucket (or block hole if you prefer).


Later,

z!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Richard Damon]

On 12/12/19 12:46 PM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.  They're
> non-subscribers so they don't go to the lists, but they *do* go to me, the
> list owner which floods my inbox.
>
> I'm looking at the page on how to use SpamAssassin:
> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.23%20How%20do%20I%20use%20SpamAssassin%20with%20Mailman%3F?action=show
>
>
> Is that the best way to do what I need?
> If so, what's the best method to use in my case?
> My system:
> Mailman 2.1.20
> Apache2 / 2.4.18
> Postfix 3.1.0
> Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS

If you can't get earlier filtering to get the rate low enough, you may
need to just change the option

Action to take for postings from non-members for which no explicit
action is defined.
(Details for generic_nonmember_action)
   
To discard so you don't get the messages (don't set it to reject or you
will be backscattering). It does say that you won't see messages that
should go to the list but the send used the wrong account.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Chromatest J. Pantsmaker]

Thanks for the responses Carl and Bruce,

I've been getting about 20 per day.  Some days more.  The noise is way
higher than the signal level here.  It's a low-used email list.

I'll try out filtering at the MTA level and see how it goes.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:34 AM Carl Zwanzig  wrote:

> On 12/12/2019 9:46 AM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:
> > I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
> > spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week.
>
> (What's a acceptable level? I wouldn't spend many hours just to eliminate
> 3
> spams a day.)
>
> > Is that the best way to do what I need?
>
> I'd go for #1, filtering at the MTA level, so that mailman generally has
> less to do, for some ideas-
>
> https://www.howtoforge.com/spam-control-for-postfix
> https://www.linuxbabe.com/mail-server/block-email-spam-postfix
>
> By implementing some of these, you may decide that spam-assassin isn't
> necessary.
>
> Later,
>
> z!
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best way to slow down all the spam to my lists?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 12/12/2019 9:46 AM, Chromatest J. Pantsmaker wrote:

I'm the system admin (though I'm not great at it).  I have a problem with
spam.  Hundreds of spam messages are posted to my lists each week. 


(What's a acceptable level? I wouldn't spend many hours just to eliminate 3 
spams a day.)



Is that the best way to do what I need?


I'd go for #1, filtering at the MTA level, so that mailman generally has 
less to do, for some ideas-


https://www.howtoforge.com/spam-control-for-postfix
https://www.linuxbabe.com/mail-server/block-email-spam-postfix

By implementing some of these, you may decide that spam-assassin isn't 
necessary.


Later,

z!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Delete list while leaving archives available?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/12/19 11:21 AM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> Hello,
> Is there any way to delete a list (mailman 2.1.9) but leave its archives
> available? I know that rmlist by default doesn't delete list archives, but
> with the list no longer in existence, they're no longer viewable via the
> web interface. Is there perhaps a way to just disable a list without
> deleting it? It would need to be in a way which keeps the list's aliases
> out of the alias file, not just disable delivery.


As you seem to realize, if the archives are private, you need the list
for authentication.  If it is possible to make the archives public
before removing the list, then there should be no issue, but if there is
reason to keep them private, that isn't an option.

We've thought about an alternative CGI to 'private' that could
authenticate users some other way, but we've never implemented that.

As you also recognize, if you have automatic alias generation, there are
issues with removed aliases returning. This shouldn't happen with
ordinary list creation/deletion, but will occur if bin/genaliases is
run. Also with other MTA's like Exim or processes like
postfix_to_mailman.py, list delivery will occur unless you can change
the process to ignore delivery.

I think what I would do is leave the list in place, edit it's listinfo
page appropriately and patch the bounces, confirm, join, leave, owner,
post and request scripts in Mailman's scripts/ directory to treat the
list as non-existent. Also set the list subscribe_policy to Require
approval so people can't subscribe. and let the web UI remain so members
can change their passwords.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > [ABH] The “From:” should contain the author address, but if we want to
 > keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers…

Exactly.  This is what we economists call the Theorem of the Second
Best: When it's already broken, sometimes the best you can do is to
break it harder.

 > [ABH] That’s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
 > protective of our lists, so “Reply-To:” is the author address.
 > When I get Mailman 3 set up, I’ll put in an ‘oopsie’ address with
 > an auto-responder. I’ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
 > auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

Without change to the Mailman code (Mailman 2 or Mailman 3), the
"oopsie" address will have to be handled by a separate autoresponder.
Mailman only knows about the standard addresses, and it doesn't allow
configuration of autoresponder features beyond "on" and "off".

 > I’m a bit red in the face that I did not think of that, but what
 > are friends for!

"Mail is hard, and then you retire."  From "The Sysadmin's Lament".
:-)

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

On Dec 10, 2019, at 10:27 , Stephen J. Turnbull 
 wrote:

> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous
>> Recipients’ list to help with auto-completion later.
> 
> I assume by "To" you mean "From”.

[ABH] Yes, sorry. It takes the “From:” address and saves that, instead of the
“ReplyTo:” address that is the new “To:” address.
> 
> I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
> *required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
> mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
> follow.

[ABH] The “From:” should contain the author address, but if we want to
keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers…

> We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
> Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
> when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
> to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
> in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
> That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
> to list.

[ABH] That’s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
protective of our lists, so “Reply-To:” is the author address.
When I get Mailman 3 set up, I’ll put in an ‘oopsie’ address with
an auto-responder. I’ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

> 
> Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
> server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
> (regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
> the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
> You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
> not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
> think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.
> 
> Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
> is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
> "via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
> the unintended address?  

[ABH] The disasters all have had the full mangled display name, so no editing
took place in those cases. I think the first suggestion above is better.

> 
>> I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they
>> eventually forget and this happens again.
> 
> You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
> manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

[ABH] I’m trying to get out of it, as you can see. :-)

I very much appreciate your suggestions and help, and will let you 
and the list know how the autoresponder works out. I’m a bit red in the face
that I did not think of that, but what are friends for!

Yours

Allan


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous
 > Recipients’ list to help with auto-completion later.

I assume by "To" you mean "From".  We don't munge "To" in this
situation (there is a personalized list configuration where To is
changed from the list to the subscriber, but that shouldn't cause
client problems or DMARC issues).

I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
*required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
follow.

We could stick a .invalid address in there, which would immediately
bounce back to the sender.  But that screws those users because the
client hides the address and we don't control the delivery service
notice in that case, it's the user's outgoing mail gateway that will
reject it.  Or possibly silently drop it.  So there's no guarantee
they'll get a message that makes any sense to them.  And if they
figure out the list is related, you'll take some heat.

We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
to list.

Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
(regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.

Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
"via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
the unintended address?  It sounds like this might be good enough,
possibly combined with a second Rule which looks for the list's
display name (and any variants popular with posters) and holds posts
that don't contain it for moderation.

(Note to me: Possibly the mail's entire content would need to be
scrubbed when bouncing but available at the archive as a .bin thingie
to avoid certain kinds of bounce spam.  And if so, it would need to be
removed in say 24 hours since it's almost certainly private.  Also
maybe a check for In-Reply-To/References could help identify likely
private mail?)

 > I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they
 > eventually forget and this happens again.

You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST

[Geoff Campbell]

Mark,

Thanks very much for your pointer, the addition of a
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN as per the article you linked to solved my problem
immediately.

Regards,
Geoff

On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 21:25, Geoff Campbell
 wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> > It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
> > ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
> > redirects http to https.
>
> Ah, interesting.
>
> > I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives.
>
> Well, I think the answer there is that there are many different
> answers, all giving multiple paths to a solution, and I got routed off
> down the incorrect little rat-hole.
>
> Thanks for the pointers, I'll work through them in the morning but I
> suspect the configuration I want is easily available from them now
> that I have your pointers, having had a quick glance through.
>
> Regards,
>   Geoff
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST

[Geoff Campbell]

Mark,

> It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
> ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
> redirects http to https.

Ah, interesting.

> I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives.

Well, I think the answer there is that there are many different
answers, all giving multiple paths to a solution, and I got routed off
down the incorrect little rat-hole.

Thanks for the pointers, I'll work through them in the morning but I
suspect the configuration I want is easily available from them now
that I have your pointers, having had a quick glance through.

Regards,
  Geoff
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Apache ScriptAlias and POST

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/9/19 3:42 AM, Geoff Campbell wrote:
> 
> Reading through this list, I see that this is apparently due to the
> ScriptAlias redirection just silently dumping the data content of HTTP
> POST requests.  Which seems a bit odd to me, but what do I know?


It is due to redirection losing POST data, but the culprit is not
ScriptAlias. It is whatever you have in your Apache config that
redirects http to https.

> 
> Can anyone provide a sample config that works, please?  I'm thoroughly
> confused, and none of the threads I've found on this list show any
> kind of full solution.


I don't know why you couldn't find the answer in the archives. I'm suere
it's there many times. The solution is in Mailman. You need to arange
for form action URLs to be https, not http.

See the FAQ article at  for links to
more info. In particular, see steps 2. and 3. at
.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Dan Halbert]

This is exactly the problem I mentioned a few weeks earlier that did not 
elicit much of a response. I asked for some way to change the "via" 
string and there wasn't one. I have to remind people periodically to 
remove any "via" entries from their address books.


AOL/Yahoo/Verizon cause other problems too, due to server reputation. I 
signed up for a hosted Mailman 3 service, added a list with about 60 
A/Y/V addresses, and it caused terrible server reputation problems for 
the provider. Mail delivery to A/Y/V was simply dropped or held up for 
days, and was always classified as spam. It appears to be ameliorated 
now, but it was a horror show. No amount of cajoling can get the users 
off those providers - they have enough trouble just operating their mail 
clients. And I cannot simply drop them: they are members of an 
organization the lists serve.


Dan

On 12/9/19 9:06 AM, Allan Hansen wrote:

Hi Stephen,

Thank you a bunch for looking into this.

I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. 
No problem there. At first. ;-)
But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous Recipients’ list 
to help with auto-completion later.

Here are the steps. I’m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further 
mangled them with the auto-inserted ‘mailto:’ command confusing my message.

Here goes:

a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as 
recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author’s emal address:
From: Author Name (author.address) via list 
ReplyTo: author.address

b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) 
from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
However, to be ‘helpful’ with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled string 
“Author Name (author.address) via list ” into the mail client’s  
‘Previous Recipients’ list!!
To: author.address

c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and starts typing 
"Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from the ‘Previous 
Recipents’ list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the actual address, which is the 
list address. The subscriber does not suspect that things have gone awry because it looks 
fine. Well, not completely fine, but enough so. So he/she hits ’Send’ while seeing this 
and only this in their To: field:
To: Author Name (author.address) via list

d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the 
original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed 
to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of 
my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists 
members.

I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they eventually 
forget and this happens again.

If this can’t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO 
subscribers (a lot), as it’s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these 
privacy mishaps. They don’t really have to change their main email, just get 
another one that they use only for the lists.

By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look 
forward to working with him and with the new system.

Yours,

Allan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

Hi Stephen,

Thank you a bunch for looking into this.

I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. 
No problem there. At first. ;-)
But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous Recipients’ list 
to help with auto-completion later.

Here are the steps. I’m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further 
mangled them with the auto-inserted ‘mailto:’ command confusing my message.

Here goes:

a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as 
recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author’s emal address:
From: Author Name (author.address) via list 
ReplyTo: author.address

b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) 
from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
However, to be ‘helpful’ with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled 
string “Author Name (author.address) via list ” into the mail 
client’s  ‘Previous Recipients’ list!! 
To: author.address

c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and 
starts typing "Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from 
the ‘Previous Recipents’ list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the 
actual address, which is the list address. The subscriber does not suspect that 
things have gone awry because it looks fine. Well, not completely fine, but 
enough so. So he/she hits ’Send’ while seeing this and only this in their To: 
field:
To: Author Name (author.address) via list

d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the 
original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed 
to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of 
my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists 
members. 

I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they eventually 
forget and this happens again.

If this can’t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO 
subscribers (a lot), as it’s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these 
privacy mishaps. They don’t really have to change their main email, just get 
another one that they use only for the lists.

By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look 
forward to working with him and with the new system.

Yours,

Allan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like
 > 
 > "xxx via list" 

Thank you for the correction.

I wonder whether users would behave differently if we used "list on
behalf of xxx" instead of "xxx via list"?

 > I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
 > did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

Ah, I see.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/8/19 8:17 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
> this:
> 
> "Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 


Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like

"xxx via list" 

where xxx is
if original From contains a display name then that display name
else if original From is a member and the member has a real name then
that real name
else the From email address.

I.e., it could be

"Allan Hansen via list" 

or

"han...@rc.org via list" 

but wouldn't be

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 

I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it’s not the immediate
 > replying as such that is an issue, and the mangled string is
 > factually correct. The issue comes when Apple Mail does
 > auto-completion and hides the email address.
 > 
 > A mangled From: address like this:
 > 
 > "Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list" 
 > mailto:r...@mail.rc.org>>

That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
this:

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 

Most likely, the client actually uses the Mailman version in composing
replies but displays the above to you (or presents it to the system
highlight-and-copy function).

 > will show up as 
 > 
 > ‘Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list’ 
 > 
 > in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone
 > sending to that string will assume that it goes to me. It does
 > not. It goes to the list.

I don't contest your statement of fact, but if Reply-To indeed
contains author, it should go to author.  (I believe we *always* add
author to Reply-To if Munge From is in effect.)  If it doesn't go to
Reply-To, the client is at fault, because if Reply-To is set, it is
the *author*'s preferred address for receiving replies, and From
*should* be ignored in collecting the addressees to use in replies.
(It's possible that it *also* goes to the list, if the list is in
Reply-To or the user requests "reply to all".)

Bottom line: I'll do what I can to help you, but I'm not sure whatever
it is we come up with is suitable for adding to the main Mailman
distribution.

 > On the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the
 > automatically inserted message footer added by Mailman is working
 > fine (see next). Would anything prevent adding to this section?

No.

 > Can it be a REPLY button?

No.  I'm pretty sure the footer is plain text (see below) and plain
text can't specify buttons.  The *client* can add them as easily as it
can turn addresses in text into clickable links.

The problem is that the From (if no Reply-To) and Reply-To (preferred
if present) header fields are the only reliable ways to inform the
client that a given address is the author's preferred reply address.
In other words, if it ain't working, it's broke beyond what we can do
to fix.  We can maybe help or workaround, but no promises, because
anything we do will require cooperation from your subscribers to be
effective.  We can help make the RightThang[tm] easier to discover,
but the proverb about horses and water applies.

 > --
 > Allan's mailing list
 > al...@mail.rc.org  
 >   >

I don't know what your client is so I can't be sure, but the line of
hyphens suggests that the footer is added as a text/plain part, not
text/html.  In any case, Mailman presents the addresses as text, not
as links, so it must be something the client is doing.

It turns out to be easy for software to recognize URLs in text, so
most clients do so and turn them into links automatically, even though
Mailman doesn't.  I'm pretty sure that this works fine in almost all
clients.  When it doesn't, it's normally an easy copy-paste.  Adding a
mailto URL to list in the footer can be done, it's just a matter of
editing a template.  (I don't think that editing can be done in
Postorius (the admin on the web module) yet, but I believe it's on the
todo list.)

Adding a mailto URL to author probably requires a feature we don't
have yet (I don't think the author's address is made available to the
footer generation function.)  I will look into that.  Again, even with
this feature you would have to customize in the footer template.  It
will not be a default behavior of Mailman.

 > I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from
 > this list. It worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue
 > and hiding of the actual email addresses messed it up. I’d rather
 > not have the same problems in Mailman 3, so I’m looking for
 > something, anything - even if it’s not nice, that does not cause my
 > subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000
 > people without knowing it.

Without seeing a full header of a message as distributed by your list,
I can't be sure.  But if the settings are as you say and the From and
Reply-To headers are set as I expect they are, there is no sure way to
prevent misaddressed mail except to change clients, because the
clients that reply to From in the presence of a Reply-To field are
just plain broken.  The list cannot work around them without risking
breaking other clients, where those other clients *are* conforming to
Internet standards.

Alternatively, you could ban posts by @yahoo.com and @aol.com
addresses, in which case most of the need to munge from goes away.

But neither of those is 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

Stephen et al.,

You’re right that using links instead of a Reply function is unattractive and 
not how email is supposed to work. On the other hand, the same surely goes for 
the To: mangling:

I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it’s not the immediate replying as such 
that is an issue, and the mangled string is factually correct. The issue comes 
when Apple Mail does auto-completion and hides the email address.

A mangled From: address like this:

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list" 
mailto:r...@mail.rc.org>>

will show up as 

‘Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list’ 

in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone sending to 
that string will assume that it goes to me. It does not. It goes to the list.

So putting “Allan Hansen (hansen AT rc.org )" in the 
description will not help this issue. Using it with auto-completion will still 
send it to the hidden list address.

You’re right that if the author is sending HTML mail, adding a hyperlink to it 
is not likely to be successful at all. So maybe that’s not a good solution. On 
the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the automatically inserted 
message footer added by Mailman is working fine (see next). Would anything 
prevent adding to this section? Can it be a REPLY button?

--
Allan's mailing list
al...@mail.rc.org 
>


I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from this list. It 
worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue and hiding of the actual 
email addresses messed it up. I’d rather not have the same problems in Mailman 
3, so I’m looking for something, anything - even if it’s not nice, that does 
not cause my subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000 
people without knowing it.

Yours,

Allan



> On Dec 7, 2019, at 6:21 , Stephen J. Turnbull 
>  wrote:
> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list
>>   server. Don’t add the sender’s address in quotes.
> 
> I believe this requires a change in the Mailman code.
> 
> I guess you want the author's display name, if available, there?  What
> if there is no display name, or it doesn't identify the author?  I
> guess the best play would be the mailbox of the author.
> 
> I guess some nontechnical users
> might just copy that to an address field with less than amusing
> results, but it might be useful in manual lookups in address books,
> since most clients do not display Reply-To.
> 
>> 2. Keep the ‘Reply-To:’ address as the sender’s address (that’s
>>   what I have it set to now - I don’t want people to reply to the
>>   lists).
> 
> I believe this doesn't need a change to Mailman.
> 
>> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ‘Reply to Sender’ and Reply to List’
>>   at the bottom of the message.
> 
> A mailto link for the list is configurable.  However, the link for
> author would require changes to Mailman code I'm pretty sure.  Also,
> as explained below, it's probably very unreliable and unattractive to
> try to use links to simulate a mail client's reply function.
> 
> First of all, users expect a reply function to copy the text of the
> original.  mailto URLs don't provide a facility for that.  We would
> have to add code to copy the text to the URL.  I'm not sure how
> typical clients would react to that, and if the original is plain
> text, the message's whole text would be visibly duplicated in the
> footer of the message distributed to subscribers, which would likely
> be displayed as is by most clients.  This would be pretty distressing
> to most subscribers, I think.  Also, I expect most clients use the DOM
> they have constructed to display the original mail to populate replies
> they construct themselves, but Mailman can't know about that.  Users
> may not be pleased with replies constructed from a mailto URL; in
> particular, it would not be displayed or transmitted as copied, but
> rather as original text.
> 
> Second, users expect replies to preserve threading.  This would mean
> adding References or at least In-Reply-To header fields to the mailto
> URLs.  This would be straightforward to implement, but would result in
> large, unreadable plaintext footers, if some users are sending
> plaintext mail.  (Though it wouldn't be as bad as if you tried to
> include the original text in the reply's composition window, I imagine
> you'd get complaints.)  Again, I'm not sure how typical clients would
> deal with it, whether they would follow the RFCs or screw up.
> 
> Third, if you mean "links as HTML" rather than "insert URLs
> somehow", this is rather problematic.  HTML mail is a minefield.
> There are standards, but in practice they're all violated by one
> client or another.  Manipulating HTML 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Allan,

I have successfully installed Mailman 3 on 4 servers now. Please contact me off 
list if you are interested in my installation service.

Thanks,
Brian Carpenter 

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:17 AM, Allan Hansen  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> One of my main gripes is the From: mangling that we had to use to allow AOL 
> and Yahoo subscribers to send messages without messing everyone else up. I 
> have now been informed that Mailman 3 does not solve this problem, but I’d 
> like to move to Mailman 3 anyway. So what to do?
> 
> How about this:
> 
> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list server. 
> Don’t add the sender’s address in quotes.
> 2. Keep the ‘Reply-To:’ address as the sender’s address (that’s what I have 
> it set to now - I don’t want people to reply to the lists).
> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ‘Reply to Sender’ and Reply to List’ at the 
> bottom of the message.
> 
> 
> My other solution:
> 
> Require subscribers from AOL/Yahoo and whichever other service with the same 
> misguided policy to get another email address for the lists.
> 
> 
> Is there anyone on this who will be willing to help installing Mailman 3 for 
> me on a Linux system. I have tried and I have had two experts try as well, 
> but we have all run into difficulty. I’ll pay, of course.
> 
> Yours,
> 
>Allan Hansen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working, no .mbox file is being created

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/5/19 1:25 PM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:
> 
> Thanks, that was it, it was set to -1. If I set it to anything else this only 
> affects lists that have archiving turned on?


Correct.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working, no .mbox file is being created

[Bruce Johnson]

On Dec 5, 2019, at 2:04 PM, Mark Sapiro 
mailto:m...@msapiro.net>> wrote:

On 12/5/19 10:03 AM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:

I’ve reproduced the issue for a test list; the archive directories are created, 
but no .mbox file is being created when messages are sent.

I’ve run check-perm -f to fix any permissions issues, but that did not fix it.

we’re sending email via postfix set up to relay to our actual SMTP server.

There are no errors associated with ArchRunner in the error or qrunner logs, 
and no errors associated with the unarchived posts in any of the logs. I don’t 
see anything in the system logs either.


What is the mm_cfg.py setting for ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX. The possibilities are

#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only
# 1 - do not use builtin mailman html archiving, archive to mbox only
# 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving.

Thanks, that was it, it was set to -1. If I set it to anything else this only 
affects lists that have archiving turned on?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Achiving not working, no .mbox file is being created

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/5/19 10:03 AM, Bruce  Johnson wrote:
> 
> I’ve reproduced the issue for a test list; the archive directories are 
> created, but no .mbox file is being created when messages are sent.
> 
> I’ve run check-perm -f to fix any permissions issues, but that did not fix it.
> 
> we’re sending email via postfix set up to relay to our actual SMTP server. 
> 
> There are no errors associated with ArchRunner in the error or qrunner logs, 
> and no errors associated with the unarchived posts in any of the logs. I 
> don’t see anything in the system logs either.


What is the mm_cfg.py setting for ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX. The possibilities are

#-1 - do not do any archiving
# 0 - do not archive to mbox, use builtin mailman html archiving only
# 1 - do not use builtin mailman html archiving, archive to mbox only
# 2 - archive to both mbox and builtin mailman html archiving.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Check message size before moderation status?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/5/19 8:57 AM, David Gibbs via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> I want to adjust my MM install so that it will check the message size
> before a subscribers moderation status.
> 
> Would this be the appropriate change to mm_cfg.py?
> 
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('Moderate')
> GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Emergency'), 'Moderate')


That would move Moderate after Hold, MimeDel and Scrubber. I.e., member
moderation and non-member actions would be deferred until after
miscellaneous holds, content filtering and non-digest scrubbing. If
that's what you want, the above would do it. However, what you stated in
words was you want 'too big' before moderation. I would do that with

GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('Hold')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Moderate'), 'Hold')

which would put the miscellaneous holds before moderation and non-member
checks.

As an aside, I find this to be useful:

#
# Put MimeDel ahead of Hold so "too big" is based on content filtered
# message.
#
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.remove('MimeDel')
GLOBAL_PIPELINE.insert(GLOBAL_PIPELINE.index('Hold'), 'MimeDel')


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Installing Mailman on a Debian system with Apache 2.4.2, CGI error!

[Brett Delmage]

On 05/06/2018 08:37 PM, Jayson Smith wrote:

It seems that by default, Debian's Apache install doesn't enable the CGI
module. Somehow, it sort of works better if you enable CGI. It works
better if you plug it in.

Head…desk. I'd spent hours trying to troubleshoot this! Sometimes the
most obvious things escape the best of us.


On Mon, 7 May 2018, Mark Sapiro replied:


Don't feel bad. I knew I'd seen this before, and I couldn't remember the
cause, and it never occurred to me either that the obvious explanation
was mod_cgi not enabled.


Heh.

I tightened a new server upgrade recently, thinking 'I don't use CGI 
(only php-fpm) - let's disable it for extra security!'


And if it wasn't for this helpful message here I would STILL be 
scratching my head like Jayson was...


These archives are still gold. Thanks for sharing, folks!

Brett
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Re: [Mailman-Users] removing s/mime parts before distributing mail to list-members required?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/2/19 12:44 AM, Stefan Bauer via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> More and more mails contain s/mime signatures. How to deal with that? We do 
> not want to send out "broken" mails. What is best practice?

This reply is signed. I don't think the sig will be broken.


> Removing the s/mime part seems right, but how to do that? pass_mime_types 
> could help, but


pass_mime_types for this list is:

multipart
text/plain
text/x-diff
text/x-patch
application/pgp-signature
application/pkcs7-signature
text/html
message/rfc822

Both collapse_alternatives and convert_html_to_plaintext are Yes.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Allan Hansen]

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses, Stephen. Much appreciated. I have forwarded them 
to my friend. I don’t know if he is on this list, but I have recommended that 
he be, so we can get over whatever hump is getting in the way.

I used the instructions on the Mailman 3 site on my own attempt. 

The fact that the mangling will continue is a disappointment. I’m inclined to 
tell all my AOL and Yahoo users and others in the same boat to find another 
email service. The problem is that my MacOS users are getting tripped up by the 
mangling, as it is hidden by the mail clients. I have instructed them to remove 
previous recipients regularly from the list of such, if they contain the ‘via 
list’ string. But they don’t read my emails, and we see many embarrassing email 
ssent to the lists that are meant for one-on-one communication.

What is the best, easiest, guaranteed-to-work way to get this Mailman 3 up and 
running (OS, add-ons, options, etc.). When I tried myself, I saw a lot of 
options that I really did not really care to have because I did not know the 
consequences of each. I’m an application programmer, not a systems programmer.

Yours,

Allan Hansen
allan_han...@icloud.com



> On Nov 24, 2019, at 22:15 , Stephen J. Turnbull 
>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I’m ready and eager to move on to MM3 on a Linux box.
> 
> The obvious "turn-key" installation is to use the Docker containers,
> which Abhilash keeps fairly up-to-date.  But see comment below about
> universal working solutions.
> 
> Which distro do you have?  Are you using the distro's packages of
> Mailman 3 (not yet a good idea, unfortunately), or installing from
> source?
> 
>> I have looked into it a few times now and I keep running into the
>> same blocks. I don't see much moving either. I was hoping someone
>> (Mailman developing community) would come up with a better working
>> solution.
> 
> It's email.  There are no universal working solutions.
> 
>> [Some third party wrote:] My concern is that the Mailman3 is not
>> ready. There are too many dead ends and undocumented stuff.
> 
> Who is this guy and has he consulted us?  I'd like to do an archive
> search if he's done so to see what the issues are.
> 
>> For Mailman2 I have a working integration with iRedMail, that does
>> not seem to work with 3.
> 
> What's iRedMail?  How does it fit into the community your lists serve?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:47:16 -0500 Jim Popovitch  wrote:

> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 11:06 -0500, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> > > Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via 
> > > Mailman-Users :
> > > > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > > > > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which 
> > > > > is
> > > > > EOL in about 40 days.  
> > > > 
> > > > I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> > > > declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> > > > HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> > > > throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> > > > for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS 
> > > > end-data 
> > > > for Debian 9).
> > > 
> > > Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. 
> > > This already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose 
> > > that they will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to 
> > > be in the bullseye release.
> > 
> > Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?)
> > will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
> > 
> > If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an
> > application (e.g. Mailman) migration too.  BUT if you are not using
> > bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.
> 
> Since I'm working on PPAs some today, an additional bullet-point to the
> above is that Ubuntu Bionic (which includes Python 2.7) has an EOL of
> April 2028.
> 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
> 
> Sure, it would be great if everyone migrated to MM3 (and MM3 fit inside
> the requirements of everyone using it..) ASAP, but just like with the
> Linux Kernel there is no magic solution to have everyone on Kernel 5.x
> this week... so guess what, kernel 3x still gets security patches from
> distributors.

And RedHat is still supporting Kernel 2x for RHEL 6...

> 
> - -Jim P.
> 
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> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
> 
>   
>   

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 11:06 -0500, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> > Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
> > :
> > > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > > > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> > > > EOL in about 40 days.  
> > > 
> > > I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> > > declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> > > HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> > > throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> > > for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
> > > for Debian 9).
> > 
> > Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This 
> > already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they 
> > will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the 
> > bullseye release.
> 
> Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?)
> will be the last of Python2 for Debian.
> 
> If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an
> application (e.g. Mailman) migration too.  BUT if you are not using
> bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.

Since I'm working on PPAs some today, an additional bullet-point to the
above is that Ubuntu Bionic (which includes Python 2.7) has an EOL of
April 2028.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

Sure, it would be great if everyone migrated to MM3 (and MM3 fit inside
the requirements of everyone using it..) ASAP, but just like with the
Linux Kernel there is no magic solution to have everyone on Kernel 5.x
this week... so guess what, kernel 3x still gets security patches from
distributors.

- -Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/25/19 7:17 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:04, Johannes Rohr  wrote:
> 
>> The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path
>> from Mailman 2.* yet, according to
>>
>> http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgrade-from-mailman-2-1-x
>> and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances
>> of mailman  without it.
>>
> 
> Is there a timeline for that?


Actually, that doc is out of date. The 'mailman import21' command for
importing a list from a Mailman 2.1 config.pck currently works quite
well. We've used it to migrate several lists on python.org and it works
well (and bugs when found get fixed).

The biggest issue is anomalies in the archive .mbox files that affect
the hyperkitty_import process.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 16:59 +0100, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> 
> Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
> :
> > On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> > > EOL in about 40 days.  
> > 
> > I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> > declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> > HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> > throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> > for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
> > for Debian 9).
> 
> Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This 
> already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they 
> will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the 
> bullseye release.

Correct, so LTS End-date for Buster (which will be sometime in 2024?)
will be the last of Python2 for Debian.

If you are migrating to Bullseye, then it makes sense to plan for an
application (e.g. Mailman) migration too.  BUT if you are not using
bleeding edge OSes, you don't need to heed the Python fear mongering.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Johannes Rohr]

Am Mo., 25. Nov. 2019 um 16:47 Uhr schrieb Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users <
mailman-users@python.org>:

> On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> > Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> > EOL in about 40 days.
>
> I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
> declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
> HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
> throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
> for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data
> for Debian 9).
>

Python2 is being removed from Debian's next release, Bullseye, though. This
already has caused turmoil for the Calibre package and I suppose that they
will have to remove mailman 2 also so that it is not going to be in the
bullseye release.


>
> Stop being scared by the Python team's misleading messaging.
>
> -Jim P.
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Mon, 2019-11-25 at 10:17 -0500, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
> Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
> EOL in about 40 days.  

I keep saying this a lot... the EOL you are referring to is Python's
declared date that the Python team will no longer maintain Python2.
HOWEVER, Redhat, Debian, etc., *will* still be maintaining Python2
throughout the lifecycles of their releases that contain Python2.   So,
for Debian 10 (Buster) that is well past 2022 (which is the LTS end-data 
for Debian 9).

Stop being scared by the Python team's misleading messaging.

-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Matthew Pounsett]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:04, Johannes Rohr  wrote:

> The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path
> from Mailman 2.* yet, according to
>
> http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgrade-from-mailman-2-1-x
> and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances
> of mailman  without it.
>

Is there a timeline for that?  Mailman 2.x requires python 2.x, which is
EOL in about 40 days.   It would have been nice to have a supported upgrade
path six months ago.  Can we count on one... say... in the next month?  I'm
not going to be able to do a production upgrade between now and the start
of the holidays change freeze anyway, but it would be nice if we could plan
on something for January.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 Ready?

[Johannes Rohr]

Am 25.11.19 um 07:15 schrieb Stephen J. Turnbull:


[...]

> The obvious "turn-key" installation is to use the Docker containers,
> which Abhilash keeps fairly up-to-date.  But see comment below about
> universal working solutions.


[...]

Great suggestion. Is it easy to integrate it with the system's MTA or
does it come with its own MTA?

The obvious big showstopper is that there is no supported upgrade path
from Mailman 2.* yet, according to 
http://www.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html#how-can-i-upgrade-from-mailman-2-1-x
and so you certainly don't want to try to upgrade production instances
of mailman  without it.

Cheers,

Johannes

 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Edit automated responses

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/23/19 8:45 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> In what cases will the "User notice of held post" be used by the system
> (or, asked differently: in what cases will messages be held)?
> 
> I believe this is only if a non-member wants to send something or when
> the message is too big. Are there other cases as well?


Message from a moderated member
General Options -> administrivia
Privacy options ... -> Recipient Filters ->
require_explicit_destination
max_num_recipients
Privacy options ... -> Spam filters ->
header_filter_rules with hold action
bounce_matching_headers
Mail<->News gateways -> news_moderation = moderated
header matches mm_cfg.KNOWN_SPAMMERS (default is empty)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Edit automated responses

[Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users]

Thank you, Mark Sapiro and Brian Carpenter, for the responses.

In what cases will the "User notice of held post" be used by the system 
(or, asked differently: in what cases will messages be held)?


I believe this is only if a non-member wants to send something or when 
the message is too big. Are there other cases as well?


Thanks again
Christian

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Mark Sapiro schrieb am 22.11.19 um 19:53:

On 11/22/19 3:55 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

When a user sends a message which exceeds the limit, he receives a message that 
his contribution will either need approval of a moderator or be deleted.

Can this message be edited so that the user is informed that his contribution 
is deleted (so not to mention the possibility of a moderator approval)?


Brian has answered this, but note as he says, the postheld.txt template
is generic for all held messages, not just those held for being too big.



And is it possible to "auto-delete" contributions exceeding the size limit - 
without the interaction of a moderator?


Not without modifying source code.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Edit automated responses

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/22/19 3:55 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> When a user sends a message which exceeds the limit, he receives a message 
> that his contribution will either need approval of a moderator or be deleted. 
> 
> Can this message be edited so that the user is informed that his contribution 
> is deleted (so not to mention the possibility of a moderator approval)? 


Brian has answered this, but note as he says, the postheld.txt template
is generic for all held messages, not just those held for being too big.


> And is it possible to "auto-delete" contributions exceeding the size limit - 
> without the interaction of a moderator? 


Not without modifying source code.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Edit automated responses

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/22/19 6:55 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

Hi all

I have a list which uses Mailman 2.1.27 running on cPanel 78.0.44.

The list has a size limit for the contributions (max_message_size).

When a user sends a message which exceeds the limit, he receives a message that 
his contribution will either need approval of a moderator or be deleted.

Can this message be edited so that the user is informed that his contribution 
is deleted (so not to mention the possibility of a moderator approval)?

And is it possible to "auto-delete" contributions exceeding the size limit - 
without the interaction of a moderator?

Thank you, Christian


Hi Christian,

I believe the template that governs that message is the postheld.txt. It 
seems to be a generic template that is used for any post that is held 
for any reason. You can access this template via your list admin 
interface and it is called "User notice of held post". To access it 
click on the "Edit the public HTML pages and text files" link in your 
list admin interface.


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Thank you for your business. We appreciate our clients.
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EMWD.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Massive amounts of bounces after setting munge_from for dmarc compliance

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:
 > > I also found this post where this guy says you need to remove the
 > > DKIM headers:
 > > https://blog.dogan.ch/2016/11/24/making-mailman-dmarc-compatible/

 > It says that, but gives no reason or rationale for doing so.

I know several mail admins (small-scale, not any of the big freemail
providers!) who have spam filters set to give spam points when
signature verification or SPF fail, in outright nonconformance to the
RFCs.  if you have subscribers at such sites, the "remove broken
signatures and Authentication-Results, then add your own" procedure
can be useful.

OTOH, I've had occasional cases (not even one a year) where it was
useful to reconstruct originals (ie, by stripping forwarding
decorations) and DKIM verify.  (People wanting to claim they didn't
send abusive mail. :-( )

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Massive amounts of bounces after setting munge_from for dmarc compliance

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/19/19 8:39 AM, Andy Cravens wrote:
> Mailman 2.1.26.  I modified all our lists that did not have munge_from set 
> for DMARC compliance.  I ran a few tests and was able to send and receive 
> email from my test list.  Now I’m getting reports that large numbers of 
> emails are bouncing and members are being unsubscribed.  I had someone 
> forward a bounce message to me and it says it was rejected because it was 
> suspected as spam.  In this sample email the headers show the original sender 
> has some DKIM headers and I do not have mailman set to remove DKIM headers.  
> From the docs I found on the mailman wiki it said to not remove the DKIM 
> headers.


It says that because
 says in part:

   Survivability of signatures after transit is not guaranteed, and
   signatures can fail to verify through no fault of the Signer.
   Therefore, a Verifier SHOULD NOT treat a message that has one or more
   bad signatures and no good signatures differently from a message with
   no signature at all.


> This particular list server is on a domain that does not use DKIM but does 
> have an SPF record set to soft fail and the DMARC is set to p=none for 
> monitoring only.


Relying on SPF only to pass DMARC is very fragile because if the message
is relayed at all in transit to the destination, the final sending
server's SPF if any probably won't align with the From: domain.


>The headers in the sample email shows “dkim=fail (signature did not 
> verify)” so I’m thinking I may need to have mailman strip out the DKIM 
> headers from the original sender.  Before I modified this particular list I 
> created a test list and added some members from one particular organization.  
> The test list worked fine even though the original DKIM signatures were not 
> removed.
> 
> I also found this post where this guy says you need to remove the DKIM 
> headers:  https://blog.dogan.ch/2016/11/24/making-mailman-dmarc-compatible/  


It says that, but gives no reason or rationale for doing so.

That said, 
suggests verifying incoming DKIM, optionally removing incoming
Authentication-Results:, adding Authentication-Results: for the results
of DKIM validation, removing existing DKIM sigs and finally adding your own.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Massive amounts of bounces after setting munge_from for dmarc compliance

[Yasuhito FUTATSUKI]

Hi,

On 2019/11/20 2:27, Andy Cravens wrote:




I meant to say our default setting for all lists is to set from_is_list to 
munge_from.  I also realized that some list managers (who’s domain uses DKIM) 
have added footers to their mailing list so I’ll have to strip the DKIM headers 
no matter what.  Finally, in the documentation I have found I see two 
variations for setting REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS.

REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = 1
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes

Which one is correct?


I only answer to the last question (I don't know whether your judgement
is appropriate or not).

In Mailman/Defaults.py.in (on 2.1.29, not changed since rev.1655, before 
2.1.23):
# Some list posts and mail to the -owner address may contain DomainKey or
# DomainKeys Identified Mail (DKIM) signature headers .
# Various list transformations to the message such as adding a list header or
# footer or scrubbing attachments or even reply-to munging can break these
# signatures.  It is generally felt that these signatures have value, even if
# broken and even if the outgoing message is resigned.  However, some sites
# may wish to remove these headers.  Possible values and meanings are:
# No, 0, False -> do not remove headers.
# Yes, 1, True -> remove headers only if we are munging the from header due
# to from_is_list or dmarc_moderation_action.
# 2 -> always remove headers.
# 3 -> always remove, rename and preserve original DKIM headers.
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = No

So, both are equivalent.

Cheers,
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Massive amounts of bounces after setting munge_from for dmarc compliance

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/19/19 9:27 AM, Andy Cravens wrote:
> 
> I meant to say our default setting for all lists is to set from_is_list to 
> munge_from.  I also realized that some list managers (who’s domain uses DKIM) 
> have added footers to their mailing list so I’ll have to strip the DKIM 
> headers no matter what.  Finally, in the documentation I have found I see two 
> variations for setting REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS.
> 
> REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = 1
> REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes
> 
> Which one is correct?

They are equivalent. I don't know what documentation you found, but I
think the documentation of this setting in Defaults.py should be clear.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Massive amounts of bounces after setting munge_from for dmarc compliance

[Andy Cravens]

On Nov 19, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Andy Cravens  wrote:

Mailman 2.1.26.  I modified all our lists that did not have munge_from set for 
DMARC compliance.  I ran a few tests and was able to send and receive email 
from my test list.  Now I’m getting reports that large numbers of emails are 
bouncing and members are being unsubscribed.  I had someone forward a bounce 
message to me and it says it was rejected because it was suspected as spam.  In 
this sample email the headers show the original sender has some DKIM headers 
and I do not have mailman set to remove DKIM headers.  From the docs I found on 
the mailman wiki it said to not remove the DKIM headers.

This particular list server is on a domain that does not use DKIM but does have 
an SPF record set to soft fail and the DMARC is set to p=none for monitoring 
only.The headers in the sample email shows “dkim=fail (signature did not 
verify)” so I’m thinking I may need to have mailman strip out the DKIM headers 
from the original sender.  Before I modified this particular list I created a 
test list and added some members from one particular organization.  The test 
list worked fine even though the original DKIM signatures were not removed.

I also found this post where this guy says you need to remove the DKIM headers: 
 https://blog.dogan.ch/2016/11/24/making-mailman-dmarc-compatible/  

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I meant to say our default setting for all lists is to set from_is_list to 
munge_from.  I also realized that some list managers (who’s domain uses DKIM) 
have added footers to their mailing list so I’ll have to strip the DKIM headers 
no matter what.  Finally, in the documentation I have found I see two 
variations for setting REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS.

REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = 1
REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes

Which one is correct?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] OutgoingRunner processes hanging

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/15/19 11:34 AM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
>> If you don't remove the .bak file, it will be recovered and reprocessed
> when the runner is restarted. In this case, any recipients that were
> delivered previously will get duplicates.
> 
> Question: say there's a transaction in progress delivering a mail with
> 10,000 recipients, and you have SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to say 100. If you
> restart mailman in the middle of it (leaving the .bak file in place), will
> it restart the entire transaction, re-sending to all 10,000 recipients, or
> just the 100-recipient chunk it was working on at the time of the restart?


All 10,000. The .bak file is the original queue entry, renamed to .bak
for recovery at the start of processing by OutgoingRunner. Recovery will
increment a count in the metadata so that entries that cause the runner
to crash won't be retried forever, and then just requeue the original
with all 10,000 recipients.

This process knows nothing about the actual delivery details such as
VERP, personalization and chunking (SMTP_MAX_RCPTS).


> Also, in the performance tuning doc, it says that smaller settings for
> SMTP_MAX_RCPTS are more performant (I believe it recommended 10), but if
> you're sending a mail with a large attachment, doesn't a smaller value here
> necessitate repeating the data segment of the mail more times?


Yes. The tuning tips were written some time ago when a typical
discussion list post was a relatively small amount of text with no
attachments. However, if you consider the entire process including the
MTA (I realize in your case the MTA is remote and doesn't contribute to
load on your server), even if you send one large chunk with 100
recipients, the MTA is probably going to have to deliver that to many
MXs and copy the data to each one.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] [EXTERNAL] Re: LDAP routing

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/15/19 11:12 AM, Zinski, Steve wrote:
> We're actually migrating to Proofpoint (no more sendmail). Proofpoint will 
> use our LDAP server for routing mail, so I'm trying to determine the best way 
> to represent our mailman aliases in LDAP.


I know nothing about Proofpoint and not much about LDAP, but every list
address has a target which is a pipe to Mailman's mail wrapper with
unique arguments depending on the address. E.g., `l...@example.com`
pipes to `mailman/mail/mailman post list` and `list-suf...@example.com`
pipes to `mailman/mail/mailman suffix list` for the various suffixes.

If you can do this programmatically, you may be able to do it similarly
to the way Exim does it (see ).

Otherwise, you will probably need 10 individual entries per list for the
list name and the nine suffixes.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] OutgoingRunner processes hanging

[Kevin Bowen]

>If you don't remove the .bak file, it will be recovered and reprocessed
when the runner is restarted. In this case, any recipients that were
delivered previously will get duplicates.

Question: say there's a transaction in progress delivering a mail with
10,000 recipients, and you have SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to say 100. If you
restart mailman in the middle of it (leaving the .bak file in place), will
it restart the entire transaction, re-sending to all 10,000 recipients, or
just the 100-recipient chunk it was working on at the time of the restart?

Also, in the performance tuning doc, it says that smaller settings for
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS are more performant (I believe it recommended 10), but if
you're sending a mail with a large attachment, doesn't a smaller value here
necessitate repeating the data segment of the mail more times?

Kevin Bowen
kevin.t.bo...@gmail.com 


On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 6:17 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 11/14/19 5:51 PM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> >
> >> If the process is still actually delivering to the outgoing MTA, but
> > slowly, this is an issue between Mailman and the MTA.
> > Sometimes the process appears to still be delivering, but VERY slowly,
> > other times it still has an open TCP connection but with no data
> appearing
> > to be sent over it, other times it seems the connection has actually died
> > (but the process still lives). I don't doubt that the MTA is to blame
> > somehow, but I'm not sure how to go about recovering from it.
>
>
> Almost always, these delays are due to lack of response from the MTA.
> I.e., OutgoingRunner is waiting for a reply which has not been sent or
> has somehow been lost. If the connection to the MTA is actually dropped,
> OutgoingRunner *should* catch this.
>
>
> > When it gets
> > into this state often the only way I'm able to get mail flowing again is
> to
> > shut down mailman, remove the .bak file from the out spool, and restart
> > mailman, but this means I'm losing mail, correct?
>
>
> Yes. You have two choices. Removing the .bak file means any recipients
> not already delivered to the MTA will be lost. If you don't remove the
> .bak file, it will be recovered and reprocessed when the runner is
> restarted. In this case, any recipients that were delivered previously
> will get duplicates. Also, if the issue is somehow due to the message,
> it will probably recur upon reprocessing.
>
> One thing you might want to try is setting
>
> SMTPLIB_DEBUG_LEVEL = 1
>
> in mm_cfg.py. This requires Python >= 2.4 (I hope by now everyone is
> using 2.7) and will produce copious logging of all outgoing SMTP
> transactions in Mailman's error log. This may help to understand the
> underlying issue.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> --
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [EXTERNAL] Re: LDAP routing

[Zinski, Steve]

We're actually migrating to Proofpoint (no more sendmail). Proofpoint will use 
our LDAP server for routing mail, so I'm trying to determine the best way to 
represent our mailman aliases in LDAP.


On 11/15/19, 2:03 PM, "Mailman-Users on behalf of Grant Taylor via 
Mailman-Users"  wrote:

On 11/14/19 11:31 AM, Zinski, Steve wrote:
> We are migrating from sendmail (virtuser) mail routing 
> to LDAP routing. Setting up routing for users is pretty 
> straightforward using the inetLocalMailRecipient class and 
> the mail/mailLocalAddress/mailRoutingAddress attributes. But I was 
> wondering what would be the best (correct) way to represent the mailman 
> alias addresses in LDAP (i.e., list-admin, list-bounces, list-confirm, 
> etc.). Would each get its own entry in LDAP or is there a better way? Any 
> help would be appreciated.

Are your mailing lists mixed in a dedicated (sub)domain name?  Or are 
they mixed in with other non-mailing list addresses?

The former probably doesn't need much other than something akin to a 
mailertable entry.  (Is that also migrating to LDAP?)  If it's the 
former, you're going to need /something/ to cause Sendmail to recognize 
the mailing list addresses.  This probably means that you're going to 
need LDAP entries.



-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] LDAP routing

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 11/14/19 11:31 AM, Zinski, Steve wrote:
We are migrating from sendmail (virtuser) mail routing 
to LDAP routing. Setting up routing for users is pretty 
straightforward using the inetLocalMailRecipient class and 
the mail/mailLocalAddress/mailRoutingAddress attributes. But I was 
wondering what would be the best (correct) way to represent the mailman 
alias addresses in LDAP (i.e., list-admin, list-bounces, list-confirm, 
etc.). Would each get its own entry in LDAP or is there a better way? Any 
help would be appreciated.


Are your mailing lists mixed in a dedicated (sub)domain name?  Or are 
they mixed in with other non-mailing list addresses?


The former probably doesn't need much other than something akin to a 
mailertable entry.  (Is that also migrating to LDAP?)  If it's the 
former, you're going to need /something/ to cause Sendmail to recognize 
the mailing list addresses.  This probably means that you're going to 
need LDAP entries.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Munge-from "From:" addresses and address auto-complete

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/14/19 3:36 PM, Dan Halbert wrote:
> 
> Is there some configuration I can set up that can alter these "From:"
> addresses to avoid putting the person's name first, but still including
> it? Or is there some other way to ameliorate this problem? We could
> choose something other than "Munge-from", but we do not want to lose the
> identity of the sender, which is worse.
> 
> We are using a third-party provider and have no direct control over the
> formatting of the rewritten "From:" header; I would change the Mailman
> code directly if I could.


Changing the format of the munged From: header would require changes to
the code in Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py. There's no way to do this
with list configuration settings.

The only other thing you could do is not apply DMARC mitigations to the
From: header and set your list to not make DKIM breaking transformations
to the message. See item 2) at .

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Re: [Mailman-Users] OutgoingRunner processes hanging

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/14/19 5:51 PM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> 
>> If the process is still actually delivering to the outgoing MTA, but
> slowly, this is an issue between Mailman and the MTA.
> Sometimes the process appears to still be delivering, but VERY slowly,
> other times it still has an open TCP connection but with no data appearing
> to be sent over it, other times it seems the connection has actually died
> (but the process still lives). I don't doubt that the MTA is to blame
> somehow, but I'm not sure how to go about recovering from it.


Almost always, these delays are due to lack of response from the MTA.
I.e., OutgoingRunner is waiting for a reply which has not been sent or
has somehow been lost. If the connection to the MTA is actually dropped,
OutgoingRunner *should* catch this.


> When it gets
> into this state often the only way I'm able to get mail flowing again is to
> shut down mailman, remove the .bak file from the out spool, and restart
> mailman, but this means I'm losing mail, correct?


Yes. You have two choices. Removing the .bak file means any recipients
not already delivered to the MTA will be lost. If you don't remove the
.bak file, it will be recovered and reprocessed when the runner is
restarted. In this case, any recipients that were delivered previously
will get duplicates. Also, if the issue is somehow due to the message,
it will probably recur upon reprocessing.

One thing you might want to try is setting

SMTPLIB_DEBUG_LEVEL = 1

in mm_cfg.py. This requires Python >= 2.4 (I hope by now everyone is
using 2.7) and will produce copious logging of all outgoing SMTP
transactions in Mailman's error log. This may help to understand the
underlying issue.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] OutgoingRunner processes hanging

[Kevin Bowen]

>One thing you can do is set up a separate port in the MTA for delivery

Unfortunately we nowadays use a hosted MTA solution, so I'm not in control
of it.

>If the process is still actually delivering to the outgoing MTA, but
slowly, this is an issue between Mailman and the MTA.
Sometimes the process appears to still be delivering, but VERY slowly,
other times it still has an open TCP connection but with no data appearing
to be sent over it, other times it seems the connection has actually died
(but the process still lives). I don't doubt that the MTA is to blame
somehow, but I'm not sure how to go about recovering from it. When it gets
into this state often the only way I'm able to get mail flowing again is to
shut down mailman, remove the .bak file from the out spool, and restart
mailman, but this means I'm losing mail, correct?

Kevin Bowen
kevin.t.bo...@gmail.com 


On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 4:54 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 11/14/19 4:05 PM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Occasionally my mailman instance (2.1.9) gets into a weird state where
> one
> > or more of its OutgoingRunner processes appears to hang (usually on a
> large
> > email with a large number of recipients), causing a backlog of all other
> > mail on that process's "shard" (or whatever the terminology is for how
> > mailman divides up mail between runners based on hash).
>
>
> FYI, "slice" is the term we use.
>
>
> > When it gets into
> > this state, doing a mailman restart doesn't manage to successfully kill
> the
> > "hung" process - it stays around after the restart (along with the
> > mailmanctl instance that started it). Doing a tcpdump on the process
> > usually shows that it's still sending data, but at a trickle (or
> sometimes
> > not). Any ideas what could cause this, or how to resolve it?
>
>
> OutgoingRunner is delivering the message it's working on to the
> recipient list. If the process is still actually delivering to the
> outgoing MTA, but slowly, this is an issue between Mailman and the MTA.
>
> One thing you can do is set up a separate port in the MTA for delivery
> only from Mailman and do little or no checking on that port. For example
> with Postfix, this is what we have in master.cf on mail.python.org
>
> 
> # This is where mailman is injecting to (no filtering!)
> 127.0.0.1:8027
>   inet  n   -   -   --  smtpd
> -o smtpd_authorized_xforward_hosts=127.0.0.0/8
> -o mynetworks=127.0.0.0/8
> -o smtpd_recipient_restrictions=permit_mynetworks,reject
> -o smtpd_client_restrictions=
> -o smtpd_helo_restrictions=
> -o smtpd_sender_restrictions=
> -o smtpd_data_restrictions=
> #   -o smtpd_milters=inet:127.0.0.1:11332
> -o smtpd_milters=inet:127.0.0.1:8891
> # inet:127.0.0.1:8891  == opendkim
> # inet:127.0.0.1:11332 == rspamd
> 
>
> Some other hints can be found by searching the FAQ at
>  for 'performance'
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] OutgoingRunner processes hanging

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/14/19 4:05 PM, Kevin Bowen wrote:
> Hello,
> Occasionally my mailman instance (2.1.9) gets into a weird state where one
> or more of its OutgoingRunner processes appears to hang (usually on a large
> email with a large number of recipients), causing a backlog of all other
> mail on that process's "shard" (or whatever the terminology is for how
> mailman divides up mail between runners based on hash).


FYI, "slice" is the term we use.


> When it gets into
> this state, doing a mailman restart doesn't manage to successfully kill the
> "hung" process - it stays around after the restart (along with the
> mailmanctl instance that started it). Doing a tcpdump on the process
> usually shows that it's still sending data, but at a trickle (or sometimes
> not). Any ideas what could cause this, or how to resolve it?


OutgoingRunner is delivering the message it's working on to the
recipient list. If the process is still actually delivering to the
outgoing MTA, but slowly, this is an issue between Mailman and the MTA.

One thing you can do is set up a separate port in the MTA for delivery
only from Mailman and do little or no checking on that port. For example
with Postfix, this is what we have in master.cf on mail.python.org


# This is where mailman is injecting to (no filtering!)
127.0.0.1:8027
  inet  n   -   -   --  smtpd
-o smtpd_authorized_xforward_hosts=127.0.0.0/8
-o mynetworks=127.0.0.0/8
-o smtpd_recipient_restrictions=permit_mynetworks,reject
-o smtpd_client_restrictions=
-o smtpd_helo_restrictions=
-o smtpd_sender_restrictions=
-o smtpd_data_restrictions=
#   -o smtpd_milters=inet:127.0.0.1:11332
-o smtpd_milters=inet:127.0.0.1:8891
# inet:127.0.0.1:8891  == opendkim
# inet:127.0.0.1:11332 == rspamd


Some other hints can be found by searching the FAQ at
 for 'performance'

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Regexp matching failing for accept_these_nonmembers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/8/19 12:01 PM, Gretchen M Beck wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> 
> In "def process"
> 
> dn, addr = parseaddr(msg.get('from'))
> 
> syslog('debug','parseaddr - from  is %s' % addr,)

FYI, the above could be

 syslog('debug','parseaddr - from  is %s', addr)

i.e. syslog will do the interpolation of the subsequent argument(s) into
the string so you don't have to.

> But I'd already capturing the nonmember message to %s from %s in the vette 
> log, so don't think I need to add it. I'm not seeing anything different there 
> either.
> 
> 
> USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is false (no).

OK, I'd still like to see what this patch reports because I'm going to
tell you that if USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is false and the messages From: is
an address that matches accept_these_nonmembers, the message should be
accepted. Since this is apparently not the case, I want to see what the
value of sender is at the point where it's being tested.

I also wonder about possible leading or trailing whitespace in the
address being tested, so I put quotes around the address in the patch below.


> --- Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2018-06-17 23:47:34 +
> +++ Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2019-11-08 18:33:16 +
> @@ -102,6 +102,8 @@
>  at_list='accept_these_nonmembers'
> ):
>  return
> +syslog('debug', 'Nonmember message to %s from "%s" not accepted',
> +   listname, sender)
>  if mlist.GetPattern(sender,
>  mlist.hold_these_nonmembers,
>  at_list='hold_these_nonmembers'
> 


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Regexp matching failing for accept_these_nonmembers

[Gretchen M Beck]

Hi Mark,


In "def process"

dn, addr = parseaddr(msg.get('from'))

syslog('debug','parseaddr - from  is %s' % addr,)


But I'd already capturing the nonmember message to %s from %s in the vette log, 
so don't think I need to add it. I'm not seeing anything different there either.


USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is false (no).


--Gretchen



From: Mailman-Users  on 
behalf of Mark Sapiro 
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2019 1:57 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Regexp matching failing for accept_these_nonmembers

On 11/8/19 9:47 AM, Gretchen M Beck wrote:
>
> I'm on mailman 2.1.18-1, and this week I've received several complaints about 
> messages held for moderation. Specifically, users whose addresses are in the 
> "accept_these_nonmembers" list, or whose addresses match a regexp that is on 
> the list are getting held as "Post by non-member to a members-only list"
>
>
> While I have had one complaint about this happening for a non-umbrella list, 
> most of the examples have the non-member posting to an umbrella list where 
> they are also accept_these_nonmembers, having the message pass through 
> without moderation, then have it held at the next lists down (where it also 
> should be accepted).
>
>
> I thought "well, let's see what parseaddr is returning" and so slapped a 
> syslog at the appropriate point in Moderate.py, but so far what that is 
> showing me matches the regexp in accept_these_nonmembers.


The first thought that occurred to me was that this could be due to the
difference between msg.get_senders() and msg.get_sender(), but maybe not.

What exactly did you log in Moderate.py? I would do it like this

--- Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2018-06-17 23:47:34 +
+++ Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2019-11-08 18:33:16 +
@@ -102,6 +102,8 @@
 at_list='accept_these_nonmembers'
):
 return
+syslog('debug', 'Nonmember message to %s from %s not accepted',
+   listname, sender)
 if mlist.GetPattern(sender,
 mlist.hold_these_nonmembers,
 at_list='hold_these_nonmembers'


That said, the address matched against accept_these_nonmembers is the
address returned by msg.get_sender() which is

> This can return either the From: header, the Sender: header or the
> envelope header (a.k.a. the unixfrom header).  The first non-empty
> header value found is returned.  However the search order is
> determined by the following:
>
> - If mm_cfg.USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is true, then the search order is
>   Sender:, From:, unixfrom
>
> - Otherwise, the search order is From:, Sender:, unixfrom


i.e. if mm_cfg.USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is true get_sender() on the message
to the sub-list will be the umbrella list's -bounces address, at least
if .include_sender_header is Yes.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Regexp matching failing for accept_these_nonmembers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/8/19 9:47 AM, Gretchen M Beck wrote:
> 
> I'm on mailman 2.1.18-1, and this week I've received several complaints about 
> messages held for moderation. Specifically, users whose addresses are in the 
> "accept_these_nonmembers" list, or whose addresses match a regexp that is on 
> the list are getting held as "Post by non-member to a members-only list"
> 
> 
> While I have had one complaint about this happening for a non-umbrella list, 
> most of the examples have the non-member posting to an umbrella list where 
> they are also accept_these_nonmembers, having the message pass through 
> without moderation, then have it held at the next lists down (where it also 
> should be accepted).
> 
> 
> I thought "well, let's see what parseaddr is returning" and so slapped a 
> syslog at the appropriate point in Moderate.py, but so far what that is 
> showing me matches the regexp in accept_these_nonmembers.


The first thought that occurred to me was that this could be due to the
difference between msg.get_senders() and msg.get_sender(), but maybe not.

What exactly did you log in Moderate.py? I would do it like this

--- Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2018-06-17 23:47:34 +
+++ Mailman/Handlers/Moderate.py2019-11-08 18:33:16 +
@@ -102,6 +102,8 @@
 at_list='accept_these_nonmembers'
):
 return
+syslog('debug', 'Nonmember message to %s from %s not accepted',
+   listname, sender)
 if mlist.GetPattern(sender,
 mlist.hold_these_nonmembers,
 at_list='hold_these_nonmembers'


That said, the address matched against accept_these_nonmembers is the
address returned by msg.get_sender() which is

> This can return either the From: header, the Sender: header or the
> envelope header (a.k.a. the unixfrom header).  The first non-empty
> header value found is returned.  However the search order is
> determined by the following:
> 
> - If mm_cfg.USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is true, then the search order is
>   Sender:, From:, unixfrom
> 
> - Otherwise, the search order is From:, Sender:, unixfrom


i.e. if mm_cfg.USE_ENVELOPE_SENDER is true get_sender() on the message
to the sub-list will be the umbrella list's -bounces address, at least
if .include_sender_header is Yes.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.12 confirm.py works fine with http but does not work with https

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/5/19 8:02 AM, jimw...@attglobal.net wrote:
> 
> To make my website more secure, my website is configured to only work
> with https and not with http.
> 
> Please let me know how I can use confirm.py with https.
> 
> confirm.py works fine with http, but not with https.


As I said in a prior reply, do at least steps 1-3 at
. Presumably, you have already done
step 1 or an equivalent to force https. Now you must do steps 2 and 3 to
ensure that the ACTION URL for forms is https.

You may also want to do step 4, although that doesn't bear directly on
this issue.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Python Apache CGI issue

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/3/19 11:08 AM, jimw...@attglobal.net wrote:
> 
> Confirming the subscription using the email method works fine, but the
> web page confirmation is having problems.
> 
> For a user named "dot" joining the Skipper group, the URL is:
> 
> http:///mailman/confirm/skipper/b36adbfa6d4b9af927197b75006444262696b9a6
>  
...
> After the user clicks to subscribe to the group on the Confirm
> Subscription web page,
> the confirm.py script checks to see if the cookie was entered in the URL:


So the initial GET of the page at
http:///mailman/confirm/skipper/b36adbfa6d4b9af927197b75006444262696b9a6
works and it is only the subsequent "Subscribe to list ..." button that
fails.

If that is correct, POST data is getting lost. See the FAQ article at
 for some reasons why this happens
(most likely redirection from http to https, in which case do at least
steps 1-3 at ).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] List DMARC compliance reconfiguration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/4/19 7:42 AM, Andy Cravens wrote:
> Using mailman 2.1.26.  I’m auditing the lists on my server for DMARC 
> compliance I’ve found several list configs that do not have the DMARC action 
> set to “munge_from.”  It appears I need to edit all those list and fix that 
> setting.  I’ve also noticed that in mm_cfg.py there is no setting for 
> REMOVE_DMIM_HEADERS.  I just wanted to verify the proper order for fixing 
> these issues.  Seems like I need to correct the munge_from setting for all 
> the affected lists and them as quickly as possible add REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = 
> 1 to mm_cfg.py and restart.  It appears that which ever task I complete first 
> some messages will be undeliverable until both changes are complete.  Maybe 
> it would be best to stop mailman, complete both changes and then restart?  
> Just looking for the best way to do this.


REMOVE_DMIM_HEADERS has nothing do do with and should not affect DMARC.
While it is true that DMARC action set to “munge_from will break DKIM,
DKIM is already broken by other list modifications to the message or you
wouldn't be having DMARC issues.

Best practice is to Munge the From: if necessary based on the DMARK
policy of the original From: domain and to DKIM sign the outgoing
message with a sig from your domain which is also the munged From: domain.

If you want Mailman to remove the older DKIM sigs, you can configure
that, but it should have no effect one way or the other. See
.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with Interworx server administration

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/4/19 5:24 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

Hi all

Our hosting provider writes that he wants to change from cPanel to 
Interworx.


At present, we have our virtual server on cPanel version 78.0.41, 
which includes Mailman version 2.1.27.


I found a comparison of the two environments on this page 
 
stating



Important Differences:
...
cPanel supports PostgreSQL, Mailman mailing lists, NodeJS, 
server-side Java, Ruby on Rails and the DNSSEC protocol, but 
InterWorx does not support those things at this time.

However our provider thinks that Mailman could also be installed there.

Does anybody have (positive or negative) experience with Interworx?

Thank you, Christian


Hi Christian,

Interworx is bought out by LiquidWeb. LiquidWeb is a large hosting 
provider that is abandoning cPanel due to cPanel's price increase in 
September. I doubt your current provider will be able to get Mailman 
installed since cPanel did all the heavy lifting in getting Mailman 2 to 
run on a server. Most webhosts have very little experience with Mailman 
2. Please see our blog article at:


https://www.emwd.com/cpanel-refugee-hosting/

If you want to stay with cPanel/Mailman then I like to invite you to 
consider us. However if you want to stay with your current provider, 
then please visit our Mailman hosting service at 
https://www.mailmanhost.com. We run the latest version of Mailman out 
side of our cPanel servers.


One thing cPanel has that is really nice for list admins is their track 
delivery tool for troubleshooting bounces to list members.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Bernie Cosell]

On 3 Nov 2019 at 8:10, Brian Carpenter wrote:

> Did you check to see if notifications were enabled on your bounce 
> processing page? You can contact your hosting provider to have them look
> into their mail logs to see why those email addresses are bouncing list
> messages.

Yup -- I have it set to notify me when the bounce-score is incremented and I 
know that I get a different message when the bounce score hits its limit.

I doubt I'll get any help from the hosting provider.   But I can ask.  They 
handle 
thousands of email lists and judging by how out of date their version of 
mailman 
is, prolly not very expert in the python/logs stuff... we'll see...

Thanks!  /bernie\
Bernie Cosell
   ber...@fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --
   



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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/3/19 7:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 11/3/19 6:05 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

On 2 Nov 2019 at 21:23, Mark Sapiro wrote:


On 11/2/19 5:03 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

...  Here's the
message i got.. no reason why:

  Subject: NPL-Folk unsubscribe notification
From: mailman-boun...@lists.puzzlers.org
To: npl-folk-ow...@lists.puzzlers.org
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:24:21 -0700
Sender: "NPL-Folk" 

dear...@hotmail.com has been removed from NPL-Folk.

This is the generic unsubscribe notification from the list's
.ApprovedDeleteMember method. Starting with Mailman 2.1.27, it also
reported the source of the unsubscribe. The source is reported in the
entry in Mailman's subscribe log if you have access to that.

Nope.  I have no access to that and I just got another "has been removed"
message this morning.   Is there any way for a non-privileged mailman admin to
figure out why?   I didn't get any "bounce score incremented" messages for 
either
unsubscribe.

   /Bernie\

 Bernie Cosell
ber...@fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --


Its possible that your hosting service has disabled the option to
require approval to unsubscribe


Hi Bernie,

Did you check to see if notifications were enabled on your bounce 
processing page? You can contact your hosting provider to have them look 
into their mail logs to see why those email addresses are bouncing list 
messages.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/3/19 3:05 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> 
> Nope.  I have no access to that and I just got another "has been removed" 
> message this morning.   Is there any way for a non-privileged mailman admin 
> to 
> figure out why?   I didn't get any "bounce score incremented" messages for 
> either 
> unsubscribe.  


What is the time stamp on these unsubscribe notices?

Also, if the users are being unsubscribed by bounce processing, and
assuming you have default settings for bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings
(3) and bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval (7), any bounce score
incremented or delivery disabled notice would have been at least 3 weeks
earlier.

You might be able to get your hosting provider to provide the log
messages from Mailman's subscribe log. They will be of the form

 (pid) : deleted ; 

where  is the same as the time of the unsubscribe notice.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Richard Damon]

On 11/3/19 6:05 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> On 2 Nov 2019 at 21:23, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> On 11/2/19 5:03 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
>>> ...  Here's the 
>>> message i got.. no reason why:
>>>
>>>  Subject: NPL-Folk unsubscribe notification
>>> From: mailman-boun...@lists.puzzlers.org
>>> To: npl-folk-ow...@lists.puzzlers.org
>>> Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:24:21 -0700
>>> Sender: "NPL-Folk" 
>>>
>>> dear...@hotmail.com has been removed from NPL-Folk.
>>
>> This is the generic unsubscribe notification from the list's
>> .ApprovedDeleteMember method. Starting with Mailman 2.1.27, it also
>> reported the source of the unsubscribe. The source is reported in the
>> entry in Mailman's subscribe log if you have access to that.
> Nope.  I have no access to that and I just got another "has been removed" 
> message this morning.   Is there any way for a non-privileged mailman admin 
> to 
> figure out why?   I didn't get any "bounce score incremented" messages for 
> either 
> unsubscribe.  
>
>   /Bernie\
>
> Bernie Cosell
>ber...@fantasyfarm.com
> -- Too many people; too few sheep --
>

Its possible that your hosting service has disabled the option to
require approval to unsubscribe

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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Bernie Cosell]

On 2 Nov 2019 at 21:23, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> On 11/2/19 5:03 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> > ...  Here's the 
> > message i got.. no reason why:
> > 
> >  Subject: NPL-Folk unsubscribe notification
> > From: mailman-boun...@lists.puzzlers.org
> > To: npl-folk-ow...@lists.puzzlers.org
> > Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:24:21 -0700
> > Sender: "NPL-Folk" 
> > 
> > dear...@hotmail.com has been removed from NPL-Folk.
> 
> 
> This is the generic unsubscribe notification from the list's
> .ApprovedDeleteMember method. Starting with Mailman 2.1.27, it also
> reported the source of the unsubscribe. The source is reported in the
> entry in Mailman's subscribe log if you have access to that.

Nope.  I have no access to that and I just got another "has been removed" 
message this morning.   Is there any way for a non-privileged mailman admin to 
figure out why?   I didn't get any "bounce score incremented" messages for 
either 
unsubscribe.  

  /Bernie\

Bernie Cosell
   ber...@fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --
   



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Subscriber password override?

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sat, 2019-11-02 at 17:10 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> A site admin can find the users password via bin/dumpdb of the lists
> config.pck or can find the password and change it via bin/withlist.

This sounds promising.

> Assuming you are not a site admin, you can ask her to forward the list
> welcome message she received with her current password,

I've been trying this with her. She works her Gmail from an Android
smartphone, and can't find the Forward button on the Welcome message,
if indeed she recognizes it in her inbox. She's a good friend, but
elderly and pretty slow (actually _very_ slow) with computers. I'm a
bit apprehensive about having her on an email-based list at all.

>  or as a list
> admin, you can remove her from the list, then subscribe her from the
> listinfo page with the desired password, and tell her to follow the link
> in the confirmation request email she receives.

Following a link in a confirmation email may be pushing it with her :(

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Subscriber password override?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/2/19 4:30 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> I have signed a neighbor up to a mailing list I administer. She's
> borderline computer literate and hates passwords, so I said I'd assign
> her a simple password. It seems that Mailman 2 doesn't allow the list
> administrator to assign passwords and I get "Error: The list
> administrator may not change the password for a user" when I try.


That's correct.


> Is there any way to override this? There should be, since passwords are
> as much for protection of the integrity of a list's subscriber base as
> they are for protection of a subscriber - and this is rightfully a
> concern of the list admin, as is helping subscribers who need some hand
> holding.


A list admin can't override it except by logging in to the user's
options page as the user with the user's current password which the
admin may not know.

A site admin can find the users password via bin/dumpdb of the lists
config.pck or can find the password and change it via bin/withlist.

Assuming you are not a site admin, you can ask her to forward the list
welcome message she received with her current password, or as a list
admin, you can remove her from the list, then subscribe her from the
listinfo page with the desired password, and tell her to follow the link
in the confirmation request email she receives.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/2/19 4:46 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
> i received a notification that one of the users on my list was unsubscribed.  
> I'm 
> surprise because the configuration for the list specified that unsubscribes 
> have to 
> be approved, and this wasn't.  How could that happen?


The list's unsubscribe_policy only applies to user initiated
unsubscribes. Unsubscribes by an admin or by bounce processing don't
require approval.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Jayson Smith]

Hi,

If the notification was sent at 9:00 AM server time, it probably means 
the subscriber was bouncing Email (changed their Email address and 
didn't update their list subscription, their mail server thinks your 
messages are spam, etc.) and didn't respond to multiple "Your mail is 
bouncing, click here if you received this message" Emails. If this is 
the case and the list is in the default configuration, you should assume 
they haven't been receiving Email for at least three weeks.


Jayson

On 11/2/2019 7:46 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

i received a notification that one of the users on my list was unsubscribed.  
I'm
surprise because the configuration for the list specified that unsubscribes 
have to
be approved, and this wasn't.  How could that happen?

   /Bernie\
 Bernie Cosell
ber...@fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --





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Re: [Mailman-Users] bug

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/27/19 9:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> It appears this process is running as www-data.  Does
> /var/lib/mailman/locks exist?  Is it a directory?  Is it readable and
> writable as a directory by www-data or www-data's group?  Is it on a
> local disk, or some kind of network file system?

Actually, the owner of /var/lib/mailman/locks doesn't matter. The key
requirement is its group is Mailman's group ('mailman', 'list', whatever
Mailman runs as)

>  > SCRIPT_NAME: /virtualmin-mailman/unauthenticated/admindb.cgi
> 
> This is not provided by Mailman, I suspect, unless it's a link to a
> Mailman script.  What does it do?  Is it just a call to
> /var/lib/mailman/scripts/driver?

This is probably the standard CGI wrapper for admindb. It too should be
Mailman's group and SETGID.

Does the admin URL have the same error?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] List first created

[Peter Fraser]

Thanks very much. Works perfectly.


Regards
SI

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mark Sapiro
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 3:50 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] List first created

On 10/23/19 11:56 AM, Peter Fraser wrote:
> Hi All
> I was wondering, is there a way to tell when a mailing list was first 
> created? 

Both Mailman 2.1 and Mailman 3 lists have a created_at attribute.

In Mailman 2.1 this is a floating point number of seconds since the
epoch. There is a withlist script at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/created.py> (mirrored at
<https://www.msapiro.net/scripts/created.py>) to display this timestamp
in human readable form.

In Mailman 3 this is a datetime.datetime object. you can display it in
mailman shell, e.g.,

$ mailman shell -l test.example.net
Welcome to the GNU Mailman shell
The variable 'm' is the test.example.net mailing list
>>> m.created_at
datetime.datetime(2018, 8, 4, 18, 12, 19, 331435)
>>>

in this case, the list was created on 2018-04-18 at 18:12:19.331435

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Re: [Mailman-Users] List first created

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/23/19 11:56 AM, Peter Fraser wrote:
> Hi All
> I was wondering, is there a way to tell when a mailing list was first 
> created? 

Both Mailman 2.1 and Mailman 3 lists have a created_at attribute.

In Mailman 2.1 this is a floating point number of seconds since the
epoch. There is a withlist script at
 (mirrored at
) to display this timestamp
in human readable form.

In Mailman 3 this is a datetime.datetime object. you can display it in
mailman shell, e.g.,

$ mailman shell -l test.example.net
Welcome to the GNU Mailman shell
The variable 'm' is the test.example.net mailing list
>>> m.created_at
datetime.datetime(2018, 8, 4, 18, 12, 19, 331435)
>>>

in this case, the list was created on 2018-04-18 at 18:12:19.331435

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Re: [Mailman-Users] [ext] Re: mailman not functional

[Steven Jones]

Hi,

Thanks, traced this to using tcp connections to the remote logging server (at 
the insistence of the security manager) rather than udp. So rsyslog on the 
mailman server locked up as the remote server's rsyslog had locked up due to 
overload.  Once I restarted the remote rsyslog daemon the 1800 mail queue 
disappeared so fast I didnt have time to see it go.

Thanks all.


regards

Steven


From: Mailman-Users  
on behalf of Ralf Hildebrandt 
Sent: Friday, 18 October 2019 8:42 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org 
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] [ext] Re: mailman not functional

* Steven Jones :
> thanks
>
> I am sort of suspecting postfix as /var/log/maillog is not being written to.

That's bad. So try stopping and starting postfix (after stopping check
with "ps auxwww|fgrep post" to see if there's anything left!!!)

and have a look at /var/log/maillog while doing this.



Ralf Hildebrandt
Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk

Campus Benjamin Franklin (CBF)
Haus I | 1. OG | Raum 105
Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin

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Re: [Mailman-Users] zero-length config.pck file

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/18/19 3:46 PM, David Newman wrote:
> 
> I've restored the config.pck file from a backup and things seem to be OK
> now.


If there was a config.pck.tmp.hhh.ppp with (hhh is the host name and ppp
is the PID of the process doing the updating) or a config.pck.last with
appropriate size and time stamp, those would have been good and more
recent that your backup.

The process for saving a list is

write config.pck.tmp.hhh.ppp
this is the updated config.pck
remove config.pck.last
hard link config.pck.last to config.pck
now the previous config.pck has two names
rename config.pck.tmp.hhh.ppp to config.pck
finally the new file is named config.pck

See the definition of _save() in Mailman/MailList.py

> Just checking, though:
> 
> 1. Have others encountered config.pck corruption from power loss?


Yes, there have been reports on this list.


> 2. (putting on my tinfoil paranoid hat) Is there any chance the file
> corruption occurred due to an intrusion attempt, and not the power loss?


Extremely unlikely. Much more likely is that particular list was in the
process of being saved when the power went off.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] [ext] Re: mailman not functional

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 10/18/2019 12:42 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

I am sort of suspecting postfix as /var/log/maillog is not being written to.

That's bad. So try stopping and starting postfix (after stopping check
with "ps auxwww|fgrep post" to see if there's anything left!!!)

and have a look at /var/log/maillog while doing this.


While I don't object at all to the conversation, this is venturing outside 
of mailman and into system management (DNS function, are the file systems 
full, which processes are running, etc).


Later,

z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Tom Corcoran]

Yes, I get the auto discard message with the pdf attached.

Thank you! via http://listhelper.nongnu.org/mailmanconf.html I found where
generic_nonmember_action was and discovered that the email address was in
the List of non-member addresses whose postings will be automatically
discarded. Crikey. my bad, I must have clicked wrongly one time!

Thanks for your patience Mark! :-)

Tom.


On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 15:01, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 10/17/19 2:38 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> > All my stuff is typically default and not set unless ye told me here. I
> > double-checked and no rules in there
>
> How do you know when a message is discarded? Do you get a message from
> Mailman with Subject: Auto-discard notification with the message attached.
>
> If so, the post is from a nonmember and either the nonmember address or
> a regexp pattern matching the address is in discard_these_nonmembers or
> generic_nonmember_action is Discard.
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [ext] Re: mailman not functional

[Ralf Hildebrandt]

* Steven Jones :
> thanks
> 
> I am sort of suspecting postfix as /var/log/maillog is not being written to.

That's bad. So try stopping and starting postfix (after stopping check
with "ps auxwww|fgrep post" to see if there's anything left!!!)

and have a look at /var/log/maillog while doing this.



Ralf Hildebrandt
Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk

Campus Benjamin Franklin (CBF)
Haus I | 1. OG | Raum 105
Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin

Tel. +49 30 450 570 155
ralf.hildebra...@charite.de
https://www.charite.de
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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman not functional

[Bill Cole]

On 17 Oct 2019, at 16:41, Steven Jones wrote:


ssh takes a long time to login but there is no load to cause this.


The first thing to suspect when logins take a long time with no tangible 
loading issues (i/o, memory, and CPU all good) is DNS. If your resolver 
is trying to query a non-responsive DNS server or servers but eventually 
hits one that works, login and anything involving email transport will 
be plagued by delays.


So: check /etc/resolv.conf and make sure all listed servers are 
responding to queries.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman not functional

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/17/19 3:59 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> thanks
> 
> I am sort of suspecting postfix as /var/log/maillog is not being written to.
> 
> meanwhile,
> 
> /var/log/mailman/smtp has something odd. The time to send email varies 
> between 0.017 and 180 seconds plus,  and its getting worse,
> 
> ==
> Oct 18 11:26:13 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> postgradcoordinators for 1 recips, completed in 0.017 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:26 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> postgradcoordinators for 14 recips, completed in 12.419 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> vuw-schooladmin for 14 recips, completed in 0.029 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed 
> in 0.073 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> postgradcoordinators for 1 recips, completed in 0.019 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> postgradcoordinators for 14 recips, completed in 0.019 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:39 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed 
> in 10.111 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398)  
> 
>  smtp to fad-design-postgrads for 102 recips, completed in 0.248 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed 
> in 0.024 seconds
> Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398)  
> 
>  smtp to fad-design for 56 recips, completed in 0.030 seconds
> Oct 18 11:29:45 2019 (9398) 
> 
>  smtp to nz-libs for 1844 recips, completed in 184.400 seconds
> Oct 18 11:31:31 2019 (9398) 
>  smtp to 
> teachingandlearning for 1 recips, completed in 103.629 seconds
> Oct 18 11:34:22 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed 
> in 169.826 seconds
> Oct 18 11:36:26 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed 
> in 123.446 seconds
> Oct 18 11:39:33 2019 (9398)  
> 
>  smtp to fad-design for 56 recips, completed in 187.700 seconds
> 8><


Mailman's out queue is backlogged. See
. Something is changed affecting
Postfix. Possibly you had a local DNS cache that is now not working and
Postfix DNS lookups are taking a long time. Also consider a separate
Postfix port for Mailman delivery with minimal checking. On
mail.python.org we use something like this in master.cf

127.0.0.1:8027
  inet  n   -   -   --  smtpd
-o smtpd_recipient_restrictions=permit_mynetworks,reject
-o smtpd_client_restrictions=
-o smtpd_helo_restrictions=
-o smtpd_sender_restrictions=
-o smtpd_data_restrictions=

...
> =
> [root@vuwunicomailmn1 mailman]# tail qrunner
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9400) RetryRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9395) CommandRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9396) IncomingRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9399) VirginRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9397) NewsRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9394) BounceRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9398) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (8205) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
> Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (8172) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
> (pid: 8205, sig: None, sts: 15, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
> [root@vuwunicomailmn1 mailman]#
> =
> 
> and its now 11:50am
> 
> Ok to assume the above in the qrunner log is normal?
>


The last three lines are not normal OutgoingRunner has died, but it
seems these are the result of a Mailman restart and the old
OutgoingRunner persisted for a while because it had to finish delivery
of the current message. Note the out of sequence PID and the fact that
ps shows 9398 is running.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman not functional

[Steven Jones]

thanks

I am sort of suspecting postfix as /var/log/maillog is not being written to.

meanwhile,

/var/log/mailman/smtp has something odd. The time to send email varies between 
0.017 and 180 seconds plus,  and its getting worse,

==
Oct 18 11:26:13 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
postgradcoordinators for 1 recips, completed in 0.017 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:26 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
postgradcoordinators for 14 recips, completed in 12.419 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
vuw-schooladmin for 14 recips, completed in 0.029 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed in 
0.073 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
postgradcoordinators for 1 recips, completed in 0.019 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:27 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
postgradcoordinators for 14 recips, completed in 0.019 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:39 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed in 
10.111 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398)  

 smtp to fad-design-postgrads for 102 recips, completed in 0.248 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed in 
0.024 seconds
Oct 18 11:26:41 2019 (9398)  

 smtp to fad-design for 56 recips, completed in 0.030 seconds
Oct 18 11:29:45 2019 (9398) 

 smtp to nz-libs for 1844 recips, completed in 184.400 seconds
Oct 18 11:31:31 2019 (9398) 
 smtp to 
teachingandlearning for 1 recips, completed in 103.629 seconds
Oct 18 11:34:22 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed in 
169.826 seconds
Oct 18 11:36:26 2019 (9398) n/a smtp to its-alerts for 10 recips, completed in 
123.446 seconds
Oct 18 11:39:33 2019 (9398)  

 smtp to fad-design for 56 recips, completed in 187.700 seconds
8><

==

We are getting mail but very slowly so mailman is working, and item 2.2

[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]# ps auxww| grep mailmanctl |grep -v grep
mailman   9390  0.0  0.1 214172  9432 ?Ss   09:32   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start

and,

[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]# service mailman status
mailman (pid 9390) is running...
[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]# service postfix status
master (pid  7688) is running...
[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]#

seems to confirm this.

[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]# rpm -q mailman
mailman-2.1.12-26.el6_9.3.x86_64


[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]# ps auxww | egrep 'p[y]thon'
root  8152  0.0  0.5 598144 46040 ?Sl   09:24   0:05 
/usr/bin/python2.7 /usr/bin/salt-minion -c /etc/salt -d
mailman   9390  0.0  0.1 214172  9432 ?Ss   09:32   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
mailman   9393  2.7  2.8 435468 231896 ?   S09:32   3:36 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=ArchRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9394  0.0  0.2 219840 16204 ?S09:32   0:01 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=BounceRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9395  0.0  0.1 216084 12204 ?S09:32   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=CommandRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9396  0.0  0.2 226128 22572 ?S09:32   0:04 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=IncomingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9397  0.0  0.1 216164 12300 ?S09:32   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=NewsRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9398  0.1  0.2 221688 18224 ?S09:32   0:12 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9399  0.0  0.2 221168 17556 ?S09:32   0:03 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=VirginRunner:0:1 -s
mailman   9400  0.0  0.1 216068 12200 ?S09:32   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner --runner=RetryRunner:0:1 -s
root 20071  0.0  0.2 210860 19864 ?S11:21   0:00 
/usr/bin/python /usr/libexec/rhsmd
[root@vuwunicomailmn1 ~]#

qrunner,

=
[root@vuwunicomailmn1 mailman]# tail qrunner
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9400) RetryRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9395) CommandRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9396) IncomingRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9399) VirginRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9397) NewsRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9394) BounceRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (9398) OutgoingRunner qrunner started.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (8205) OutgoingRunner qrunner exiting.
Oct 18 09:32:13 2019 (8172) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit
(pid: 8205, sig: None, sts: 15, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1)
[root@vuwunicomailmn1 mailman]#
=

and its now 11:50am

Ok to assume the above in the qrunner log is normal?





regards

Steven



From: Mailman-Users  
on behalf of Mark Sapiro 
Sent: Friday, 18 October 2019 10:29 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org 
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman not functional

On 10/17/19 1:41 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Yesterday we had a major network outage that lasted 2 hours+  This morning I 
> find that the mailman s

Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman not functional

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/17/19 1:41 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Yesterday we had a major network outage that lasted 2 hours+  This morning I 
> find that the mailman server has "stopped working"   I have restarted mailman 
> and now the server but mailman is not processing any emails.  The load in top 
> is 0.00 ~0.01 sort of thing, no no disk i/o, no action at all, disks are not 
> full. ssh takes a long time to login but there is no load to cause this. I 
> can see python is running in top but at like 0.3%.


You say you restarted Mailman and the server, but is Mailman actually
running?

Is Postfix delivering to Mailman (look at Postfix's logs)? Is stuff
piling up in Mailman's queues; if so, which one(s).

See the FAQ at  focusing on items 2.2,
6.2, 7, 8 and 9.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] confirm_delay_cleared = yes vs. Mailman bounce management

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/17/19 2:48 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> 
> This was due to my non-default setting:
> 
> confirm_delay_cleared = yes
> 
>   After sending a "your message is delayed" notification, inform the
>   sender when the delay clears up. This can result in a sudden burst of
>   notifications at the end of a prolonged network outage, and is
>   therefore disabled by default.
> 
> The side effect was that these notifications increased the bounce
> score, although the delivery was successful.


Apparently these notifications were recognized by Mailman as fatal
bounces. If you can provide an example of the notification, we can
adjust the bounce recognizer to ignore them.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/17/19 2:38 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> All my stuff is typically default and not set unless ye told me here. I
> double-checked and no rules in there

How do you know when a message is discarded? Do you get a message from
Mailman with Subject: Auto-discard notification with the message attached.

If so, the post is from a nonmember and either the nonmember address or
a regexp pattern matching the address is in discard_these_nonmembers or
generic_nonmember_action is Discard.


-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Tom Corcoran]

All my stuff is typically default and not set unless ye told me here. I
double-checked and no rules in there

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 at 18:01, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On October 16, 2019 9:16:14 AM PDT, Tom Corcoran 
> wrote:
> >thanks, Mark,
> >
> >Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
> >   boundary="=_NextPart_000_0029_01D583FA.47355D80"
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >Content-Type: message/rfc822
> >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> >   boundary="=_NextPart_001_002A_01D583FA.47355D80"
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> >   charset="us-ascii"
> >Content-Type: text/html;
> >   charset="us-ascii"
> >Content-Type: application/pdf;
>
>
> Ok. It's not content filtering doing the discarding.
>
> What's in Privacy options -> Spam filters?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Mark Sapiro]

On October 16, 2019 9:16:14 AM PDT, Tom Corcoran  wrote:
>thanks, Mark,
>
>Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
>   boundary="=_NextPart_000_0029_01D583FA.47355D80"
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Type: message/rfc822
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>   boundary="=_NextPart_001_002A_01D583FA.47355D80"
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>   charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Type: text/html;
>   charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Type: application/pdf;


Ok. It's not content filtering doing the discarding.

What's in Privacy options -> Spam filters?



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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Tom Corcoran]

thanks, Mark,

Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_0029_01D583FA.47355D80"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_001_002A_01D583FA.47355D80"
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Type: application/pdf;


Phew!


Tom.


On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 at 15:43, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 10/16/19 1:30 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> > Thanks, Mark.
> >
> > Having sent my test email with pdf attached I thought all was fine, but
> an
> > email from a club with pdf was auto discarded this morning :-(
> >
> > My pass_mime_types is now:
> >
> > multipart
> > message/rfc822
> > application/pgp-signature
> > text/plain
> > text/html
> > application/pdf
>
>
> That looks good.
>
>
> > Looking at the header of the  message discarded I see:
> >
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===12345678=="
> >
> > Do I need to add
> > multipart/mixed
> > to pass_mime_types or something?
>
> No. "multipart" includes all sub-types of multipart. With the settings
> you have, it is unlikely that content filtering removed all of the
> message. What are the Content-Types of all of the subparts?. If you can
> post all the Content-Type headers and boundaries, we can be sure. A
> simple example of what I mean is:
>
>
>
> > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w"
> > ...
> > --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > ...
> > --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
> > ...
> > --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w--
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/16/19 1:30 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> Thanks, Mark.
> 
> Having sent my test email with pdf attached I thought all was fine, but an
> email from a club with pdf was auto discarded this morning :-(
> 
> My pass_mime_types is now:
> 
> multipart
> message/rfc822
> application/pgp-signature
> text/plain
> text/html
> application/pdf


That looks good.


> Looking at the header of the  message discarded I see:
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===12345678=="
> 
> Do I need to add
> multipart/mixed
> to pass_mime_types or something?

No. "multipart" includes all sub-types of multipart. With the settings
you have, it is unlikely that content filtering removed all of the
message. What are the Content-Types of all of the subparts?. If you can
post all the Content-Type headers and boundaries, we can be sure. A
simple example of what I mean is:



> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w"
> ...
> --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> ...
> --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
> ...
> --_av-SpnTZ0TWNMJ4n1S5X_0G2w--




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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Tom Corcoran]

Thanks, Mark.

Having sent my test email with pdf attached I thought all was fine, but an
email from a club with pdf was auto discarded this morning :-(

My pass_mime_types is now:

multipart
message/rfc822
application/pgp-signature
text/plain
text/html
application/pdf

Looking at the header of the  message discarded I see:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===12345678=="

Do I need to add
multipart/mixed
to pass_mime_types or something?

Thanks!

Tom.


On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 19:20, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 10/14/19 3:27 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> >
> > The faq mentioned is unreadable for a non-expert.
>
>
> In order to solve this issue, you need to understand why the messages
> are being discarded. The FAQ at  lists
> the various list settings that can cause this. I will try to translate:
>
> MimeDel: Does your list have Content filtering -> filter_content set to
> Yes. If so, and pass_mime_types is non-empty and does not contain at least
>   multipart
>   text/plain
>   text/html
>   application/pdf
> Content filtering may be removing the entire message. Simplest solution
> is to set filter_content Off.
>
> Moderate: probably not the issue in your case.
>
> Scrubber: If your list's Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigest setting
> is Yes, this is a possibility but not likely. You can set it to No.
>
> SpamDetect: If your list's Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
> dmarc_moderation_action is set to Discard, set it to Munge From. The
> other things under SpamDetect are not likely, but you can check if your
> list has anything in Privacy options... -> Spam filters ->
> header_filter_rules with a Discard action.
>
> The above are all settings in Mailman's list admin UI.
>
>
> > I am still getting auto discard from a club email that sends a pdf
> > newsletter, I have the address whitelisted in cpanel.
>
>
> I don't know what "whitelisted in cpanel" means. It may mean the address
> is added to Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
> accept_these_nonmembers, but if so, that is not relevant.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> --
> Mark Sapiro 
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Intendation of threads in archive too high

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/15/19 1:55 PM, Peter Wetz wrote:
> 
> However, see that the thread in the archive of my list is indented at level
> 3. The thread should be at the very left of the screen (where the bullet
> points typically start), but this is not the case as can be seen on the
> screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/ab9WSuz
> 
> I inspected the HTML code and can see that there are three  tags before
> the first entry starts. However, I don't know where they come from. As can
> be seen above, they are not part of archidxentry.html. I also took a look
> at archidxhead.html and archliststart.html, but have seen nothing
> suspicious there.



This can be caused by multiple copies of the same post (same
Message-ID:) in the archive. You won't see them in the index because
duplicates are suppressed there, but if you inspect the actual
archives/private/LISTNAME/-Month/ directories, you will see them.

This is normally caused by rebuilding the archive with bin/arch without
specifying --wipe.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] No archive files but 2 lists taking up 50MB in cPanel?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Tom Corcoran writes:
 >  Wow! Thanks, Steve!
 > 
 > My mention of pdf here, crossed over with my other post and
 > confused, sorry.

Not a problem.  I'm still a little worried about your settings,
though.  The question is, "Do you want to receive those PDFs?"  If
"application/pdf" is not in pass_these_mime_types, they will get
discarded.

 > With content_filtering turned on now hopefully no more attachments
 > accumulate.,

Correct.

 > collapse_alternatives
 > convert_html_to_plaintext
 > 
 > defaulted to Yes, so I turned them off.

This is safe to do.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] No archive files but 2 lists taking up 50MB in cPanel?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/14/19 3:43 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> 
> 1. I looked at "Scrub attachments of the regular delivery message?
> (Details for scrub_nondigest)" which opens in a new window it's set to no
> already!2. In content filtering, I turned it on and changed nothing else.


If scrub_nondigest is No, attachments will Not be stored aside in the
archive and replaced by a link in the message. This is exactly what you
want.

Content filtering may be used to remove unwanted attachments, but with
scrub_nondigest off, attachments won't be stored aside anyway so it
won't affect the storage of things in the archive.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop auto discarding when whitelisted and automatic discarding set to 0?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/14/19 3:27 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:
> 
> The faq mentioned is unreadable for a non-expert.


In order to solve this issue, you need to understand why the messages
are being discarded. The FAQ at  lists
the various list settings that can cause this. I will try to translate:

MimeDel: Does your list have Content filtering -> filter_content set to
Yes. If so, and pass_mime_types is non-empty and does not contain at least
  multipart
  text/plain
  text/html
  application/pdf
Content filtering may be removing the entire message. Simplest solution
is to set filter_content Off.

Moderate: probably not the issue in your case.

Scrubber: If your list's Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigest setting
is Yes, this is a possibility but not likely. You can set it to No.

SpamDetect: If your list's Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
dmarc_moderation_action is set to Discard, set it to Munge From. The
other things under SpamDetect are not likely, but you can check if your
list has anything in Privacy options... -> Spam filters ->
header_filter_rules with a Discard action.

The above are all settings in Mailman's list admin UI.


> I am still getting auto discard from a club email that sends a pdf
> newsletter, I have the address whitelisted in cpanel.


I don't know what "whitelisted in cpanel" means. It may mean the address
is added to Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
accept_these_nonmembers, but if so, that is not relevant.

I hope this helps.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] No archive files but 2 lists taking up 50MB in cPanel?

[Tom Corcoran]

 Wow! Thanks, Steve!

My mention of pdf here, crossed over with my other post and confused,
sorry.

With content_filtering turned on now hopefully no more attachments
accumulate.,

collapse_alternatives
convert_html_to_plaintext

defaulted to Yes, so I turned them off.

Done and tested :-)


Cheers,

Tom.


On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 14:28, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Tom Corcoran writes:
>
>  > All emails that come in I want to forward to our 2 addresses with no
>  > archive so as far, as I am concerned ongoing admin having to accept
>  > messages from new addresses, is overkill and I would avoid doing it and
>  > accept all messages if that was possible. Also, sometimes some of the
>  > sports clubs for my kids attach a pdf.
>
> I would then add
>
> text/html
> application/pdf
>
> to pass_these_mime_types in the Content Filtering page.  The first
> allows HTML-only mail to come in, and since this is really personal
> mail I don't see a good reason to disallow HTML.  The second prevents
> the PDF from being discarded.  If you strongly *prefer* plain text to
> HTML-formatted email, you could set both of
>
> collapse_alternatives
> convert_html_to_plaintext
>
> to Yes in the same page.
>
> Steve
>
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