[meteorite-list] Carancas crater
At least the fact that Carancas is a meteorite crater is resolved. I recall you refusing to accept that it was a crater. Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Sterling and List, > > This abstract clearly states that GRA 06128/9 oxygen > isotopes plot with the Brachinites: > > http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/2456.pdf > > This abstract actually has a nice plot clearly > showing > GRA 06128/9 plotting dead center with the > Brachinites: > > http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1974.pdf > > I understand that the mineralogy is different from > Brachinites, but its parent body group been > identified > as far as I am concerned. > > NWA 3133 was instrumental in demonstrating that > finding groups for orphaned stones using oxygen > isotope plotting for parent-body provenance purposes > is feasible. This is the only reason why I can see > the > metachondrite issue coming up in the case of GRA > 06128/9 which seems to be more evolved. A neat > stone, > yes, but the outrageous claims that it is more > fantastic than other equally interesting meteorites > holds no water with me. Whatever is claimed for the > parent body for this stone also applies to > Brachinites. > > Just my thoughts, > > Best Regards, > > Adam > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Hello Ted; An excellent scientific solution and answer to a dead end argument about crater and impact forming collisions by an exterrestial object with earth.I think. Hope to hear from you more in the future,and i really enjoyed the nwa 2828 EL3 page.Again an excellent scientific solution and answer to a dead end argument about classification of an exceptionally old meteorite.I for one really appreciate the effort and hard work that you and your colleagues must have devoted to that study.Thanks. Best Regards;Herman Archer IMCA # 2770 **Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp0030002598) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Hi Mike and List Members, To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a form of crater. I will concede the point that it is also a crater by other definitions, just not meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced several impact pits that were described as such further constraining the meteoritic definition of an impact crater. Here is a great reference site that clearly defines crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely defining it as a pit. http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no more than a depression in the ground with urine, fecal matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the most common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at the bottom. All the best, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Hi Mike- Being _highly_ skeptical that the Carancas event was hypervelocity or crater forming was an entirely appropriate attitude during the first days. After all, not a year goes by that we don't get stories out of usually backwater places about fiery meteorites, destroyed homes, and craters. How often do these stories actually pan out? Once. It is precisely because Carancas appears to be unique that it is generating so much interest amongst meteor (and to a lesser extent, meteorite) researchers. It is also important to consider that there is no sharp distinction between a "crater" and an "impact pit". Personally, I consider the presence of shock structures to push this into the "crater" category, but even so, identifying that evidence took several months. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:04 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater At least the fact that Carancas is a meteorite crater is resolved. I recall you refusing to accept that it was a crater. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
I did not realize that the website you listed was the definitive and final place which determines craters vs pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should enlighten them. Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the simple fact that it exists forces science to re-calculate its models for impact craters by chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. There will be no roof built, the crater is already mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, thanks to those of us who went there, at least some material was preserved). Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Mike and List Members, > > To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a > form of crater. I will concede the point that it is > also a crater by other definitions, just not > meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced > several impact pits that were described as such > further constraining the meteoritic definition of an > impact crater. > > Here is a great reference site that clearly defines > crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". > Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely > defining it as a pit. > > http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm > > Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no > more than a depression in the ground with urine, > fecal > matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 > roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the > most > common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at > the > bottom. > > All the best, > > Adam > > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Why would anyone consider the Carancas impact a " Pit " ? Never heard of impact pits on the moon. Heard of impact pits on SA's. The crater is " non - meteoritic " That doesnt make any sense. Are you suggesting that something other that the meteorite created the crater ? Please elaborate on that quote. -- Original message -- From: Michael Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I did not realize that the website you listed was the > definitive and final place which determines craters vs > pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the > world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should > enlighten them. > Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do > believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, > thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to > suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think > regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the > simple fact that it exists forces science to > re-calculate its models for impact craters by > chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I > forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. > There will be no roof built, the crater is already > mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, > thanks to those of us who went there, at least some > material was preserved). > Michael Farmer > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi Mike and List Members, > > > > To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a > > form of crater. I will concede the point that it is > > also a crater by other definitions, just not > > meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced > > several impact pits that were described as such > > further constraining the meteoritic definition of an > > impact crater. > > > > Here is a great reference site that clearly defines > > crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". > > Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely > > defining it as a pit. > > > > http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm > > > > Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no > > more than a depression in the ground with urine, > > fecal > > matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 > > roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the > > most > > common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at > > the > > bottom. > > > > All the best, > > > > Adam > > > > > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Mike and List, I conceded the point long ago that the term crater also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated that there are different types of craters and this one falls into the impact pit category as was the case with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also explosive embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred to them as impact pits. I admit the definition is somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To me," My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was over-hyped from the beginning with much misinformation surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will treat you the way you allow them, the same applies to the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the impact pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed soon became a problem. I think if the event was handled in a more professional matter, I would not have a problem with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for the way it was handled. The last from me on this, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
All: See the site (http://unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase). On the first page you will find the criteria for inclusion within this database (which is the most comprehensive and well-researched list on the planet). Sikhote-Alin is listed, Carancas is not (yet?). Also note Wabar and Haviland, both of which are termed "craters" and do fall within Adam's range of 5-20 m. The term impact "pit" is not listed in the Glossary of Geology (Jackson, 1997, 4th ed.), and is thus likely a loosely-used definition. Impact crater is listed in the Glossary and is defined as "a generally circular crater formed either by impact of a projectile on a planetary surface or by an experimental hypervelocity impact of a projectile into solid matter..." I would hedge a bet that Carancas will be considered an impact crater. Matt -- Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 USA -Original Message- From: Michael Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:40:39 To:Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Adam Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater I did not realize that the website you listed was the definitive and final place which determines craters vs pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should enlighten them. Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the simple fact that it exists forces science to re-calculate its models for impact craters by chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. There will be no roof built, the crater is already mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, thanks to those of us who went there, at least some material was preserved). Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Mike and List Members, > > To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a > form of crater. I will concede the point that it is > also a crater by other definitions, just not > meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced > several impact pits that were described as such > further constraining the meteoritic definition of an > impact crater. > > Here is a great reference site that clearly defines > crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". > Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely > defining it as a pit. > > http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm > > Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no > more than a depression in the ground with urine, > fecal > matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 > roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the > most > common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at > the > bottom. > > All the best, > > Adam > > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
I guess terminology is always descriptive. Hence it can't change the objects, that it describes. The hole in Carancas will stay the same, no matter if it's called "crater" or "pit". (crater is Latin, means chalice) Skol! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Februar 2008 19:02 An: Michael Farmer; Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Mike and List, I conceded the point long ago that the term crater also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated that there are different types of craters and this one falls into the impact pit category as was the case with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also explosive embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred to them as impact pits. I admit the definition is somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To me," My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was over-hyped from the beginning with much misinformation surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will treat you the way you allow them, the same applies to the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the impact pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed soon became a problem. I think if the event was handled in a more professional matter, I would not have a problem with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for the way it was handled. The last from me on this, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:17:56 +0100, you wrote: >I guess terminology is always descriptive. >Hence it can't change the objects, that it describes. > "A rose by any other name"... You could have quoted Shakespeare in it's original German. :-) >The hole in Carancas will stay the same, no matter if it's called "crater" >or "pit". I think that the problem some have with calling Carancas a crater is a conceptual one-- people want to think of a crater as something blasted in hard soil or rock that will be around for centuries or more-- a splat in mud that'll be gone in a year or two just doesn't seem that impressive. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Adam You told everyone on this list that Carancas was not a crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven right with the papers in the news this week, I am merely clarifying that, nothing more. Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated idiots pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, make it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was handled fine on my end, things just got bad when police tried to steal all of our money. What is your advice, should I have gone to the president of Peru? When you are in the crap, you make decisions on the spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk and typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor people who had no idea what was going on, the government was inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage of the situation to try and rob us, then the proverbial crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the crater was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was saved, and the rest, as they say, it history. Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mike and List, > > I conceded the point long ago that the term crater > also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated > that there are different types of craters and this > one > falls into the impact pit category as was the case > with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters > (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also > explosive > embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet > Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred > to > them as impact pits. I admit the definition is > somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To > me," > > My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was > over-hyped from the beginning with much > misinformation > surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the > occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will > treat you the way you allow them, the same applies > to > the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the > impact > pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed > soon > became a problem. I think if the event was handled > in > a more professional matter, I would not have a > problem > with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for > the way it was handled. > > The last from me on this, > > Adam > > > > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
I am not sure why there is an argument about whether or not Carancas is an impact crater. Of course it is! In scientific terminology, impact pit is not acceptable. Let's review the facts: 1) The Carancas crater was produced by a hypervelocity impactor that excavated a deep hole and formed a raised rim of target materials (unconsolidated clastic debris). 2) Produced ejecta rays out 350 m from the crater 3) The event had sufficient shock energy to cause classic shock features in target quartz. 4) There is no size limitation for use of the term "crater" as long as the feature fits the accepted scientific constraints, e. g., formed by hypervelocity impact. LDEF (Long Duration Exposure Facility) flew in space for 5.5 years and studies of the facility skin showed thousands of craters as small as a few microns. Similar tiny craters have been found all over space shuttle vehicles. Apollo glassy spherules and rock samples show tiny impact craters as do several meteorite surfaces. In all of these cases, scientific reports used the term "crater". Ted Bunch (an innocent bystander with 40 + years of professional experience in impact cratering) On 2/28/08 11:01 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All: > See the site (http://unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase). > On the first page you will find the criteria for inclusion within this > database (which is the most comprehensive and well-researched list on the > planet). Sikhote-Alin is listed, Carancas is not (yet?). Also note Wabar and > Haviland, both of which are termed "craters" and do fall within Adam's range > of 5-20 m. > > The term impact "pit" is not listed in the Glossary of Geology (Jackson, 1997, > 4th ed.), and is thus likely a loosely-used definition. Impact crater is > listed in the Glossary and is defined as "a generally circular crater formed > either by impact of a projectile on a planetary surface or by an experimental > hypervelocity impact of a projectile into solid matter..." > > I would hedge a bet that Carancas will be considered an impact crater. > > Matt > -- > Matt Morgan > Mile High Meteorites > http://www.mhmeteorites.com > P.O. Box 151293 > Lakewood, CO 80215 USA > > -Original Message----- > From: Michael Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:40:39 > To:Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Adam > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater > > > I did not realize that the website you listed was the > definitive and final place which determines craters vs > pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the > world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should > enlighten them. > Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do > believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, > thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to > suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think > regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the > simple fact that it exists forces science to > re-calculate its models for impact craters by > chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I > forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. > There will be no roof built, the crater is already > mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, > thanks to those of us who went there, at least some > material was preserved). > Michael Farmer > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Hi Mike and List Members, >> >> To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a >> form of crater. I will concede the point that it is >> also a crater by other definitions, just not >> meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced >> several impact pits that were described as such >> further constraining the meteoritic definition of an >> impact crater. >> >> Here is a great reference site that clearly defines >> crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". >> Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely >> defining it as a pit. >> >> http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm >> >> Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no >> more than a depression in the ground with urine, >> fecal >> matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 >> roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the >> most >> common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at >> the >> bottom. >> >> All the best, >> >> Adam >> >> > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Has any one ever determined how much of was recovered? Thanks, Tim - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Adam You told everyone on this list that Carancas was not a crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven right with the papers in the news this week, I am merely clarifying that, nothing more. Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated idiots pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, make it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was handled fine on my end, things just got bad when police tried to steal all of our money. What is your advice, should I have gone to the president of Peru? When you are in the crap, you make decisions on the spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk and typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor people who had no idea what was going on, the government was inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage of the situation to try and rob us, then the proverbial crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the crater was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was saved, and the rest, as they say, it history. Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike and List, I conceded the point long ago that the term crater also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated that there are different types of craters and this one falls into the impact pit category as was the case with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also explosive embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred to them as impact pits. I admit the definition is somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To me," My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was over-hyped from the beginning with much misinformation surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will treat you the way you allow them, the same applies to the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the impact pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed soon became a problem. I think if the event was handled in a more professional matter, I would not have a problem with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for the way it was handled. The last from me on this, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Thanks for clarifying that Ted. Michael Farmer --- Ted Bunch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am not sure why there is an argument about whether > or not Carancas is an > impact crater. Of course it is! In scientific > terminology, impact pit is not > acceptable. Let's review the facts: > > 1) The Carancas crater was produced by a > hypervelocity impactor that > excavated a deep hole and formed a raised rim of > target materials > (unconsolidated clastic debris). > 2) Produced ejecta rays out 350 m from the crater > 3) The event had sufficient shock energy to cause > classic shock features in > target quartz. > 4) There is no size limitation for use of the term > "crater" as long as the > feature fits the accepted scientific constraints, e. > g., formed by > hypervelocity impact. LDEF (Long Duration Exposure > Facility) flew in space > for 5.5 years and studies of the facility skin > showed thousands of craters > as small as a few microns. Similar tiny craters have > been found all over > space shuttle vehicles. Apollo glassy spherules and > rock samples show tiny > impact craters as do several meteorite surfaces. In > all of these cases, > scientific reports used the term "crater". > > Ted Bunch > > (an innocent bystander with 40 + years of > professional experience in impact > cratering) > > > > > > > > > On 2/28/08 11:01 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > All: > > See the site (http://unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase). > > On the first page you will find the criteria for > inclusion within this > > database (which is the most comprehensive and > well-researched list on the > > planet). Sikhote-Alin is listed, Carancas is not > (yet?). Also note Wabar and > > Haviland, both of which are termed "craters" and > do fall within Adam's range > > of 5-20 m. > > > > The term impact "pit" is not listed in the > Glossary of Geology (Jackson, 1997, > > 4th ed.), and is thus likely a loosely-used > definition. Impact crater is > > listed in the Glossary and is defined as "a > generally circular crater formed > > either by impact of a projectile on a planetary > surface or by an experimental > > hypervelocity impact of a projectile into solid > matter..." > > > > I would hedge a bet that Carancas will be > considered an impact crater. > > > > Matt > > -- > > Matt Morgan > > Mile High Meteorites > > http://www.mhmeteorites.com > > P.O. Box 151293 > > Lakewood, CO 80215 USA > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:40:39 > > To:Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Adam > > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater > > > > > > I did not realize that the website you listed was > the > > definitive and final place which determines > craters vs > > pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in > the > > world think that it is a crater, perhaps you > should > > enlighten them. > > Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I > do > > believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, > > thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend > to > > suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think > > regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, > the > > simple fact that it exists forces science to > > re-calculate its models for impact craters by > > chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I > > forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. > > There will be no roof built, the crater is already > > mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, > > thanks to those of us who went there, at least > some > > material was preserved). > > Michael Farmer > > > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Hi Mike and List Members, > >> > >> To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is > a > >> form of crater. I will concede the point that it > is > >> also a crater by other definitions, just not > >> meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced > >> several impact pits that were described as such > >> further constraining the meteoritic definition of > an > >> impact crater. > >> > >> Here is a great reference site that clearly > defines > >> crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Tim, it is somewhere in the 10 kilo range, giv or take a kilo. Of the 10 kilos I know of, about 6 kilograms was fine dust in baggies. Hans Koser has this material, he was trying to sell it at the Tucson show. Moritz Karl and I bought the other ~3 kilos he had, and most of that is sold now. I have less than 400 grams of material left for sale. Calr Esparza in Tucson got around 1.4 kilo with Bob Haag, I bought all of Bob's share from him. There is about a kilo in a museum in La Paz, Bolivia. So around 12 kilos is my estimate of total material recovered. Michael Farmer --- Tim Heitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Has any one ever determined how much of was > recovered? > > Thanks, > Tim > > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater > > > > Adam > > You told everyone on this list that Carancas was > not a > > crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven > right > > with the papers in the news this week, I am merely > > clarifying that, nothing more. > > Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated > idiots > > pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, > make > > it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was > > handled fine on my end, things just got bad when > > police tried to steal all of our money. What is > your > > advice, should I have gone to the president of > Peru? > > When you are in the crap, you make decisions on > the > > spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk > and > > typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor > people > > who had no idea what was going on, the government > was > > inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage > of > > the situation to try and rob us, then the > proverbial > > crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the > crater > > was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was > saved, > > and the rest, as they say, it history. > > Michael Farmer > > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Mike and List, > >> > >> I conceded the point long ago that the term > crater > >> also applies to the Carancas event. I also > stated > >> that there are different types of craters and > this > >> one > >> falls into the impact pit category as was the > case > >> with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters > >> (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also > >> explosive > >> embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and > yet > >> Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists > referred > >> to > >> them as impact pits. I admit the definition is > >> somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with > "To > >> me," > >> > >> My only problem with the Carancas thing is that > was > >> over-hyped from the beginning with much > >> misinformation > >> surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the > >> occurrence and a circus soon followed. People > will > >> treat you the way you allow them, the same > applies > >> to > >> the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the > >> impact > >> pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed > >> soon > >> became a problem. I think if the event was > handled > >> in > >> a more professional matter, I would not have a > >> problem > >> with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect > for > >> the way it was handled. > >> > >> The last from me on this, > >> > >> Adam > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > __ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Mike, I do not understand why this hashed out thread was started again by you as it is barely worthy of the bandwidth. I am not the one who started the impact pit versus crater debate months ago. I expressed my opinion at the time so why am I being the target of this immature string about who is right or wrong? I conceded months ago that Carancas could be called a crater. My initial problem came from reading old books including some of Ninninger's works that tried to define some craters as impact pits. Apparently, unpublished modern terms define craters more precisely but a lot of haze still exists. It is not about who is right or wrong. It is about defining terms through debate. The tone of your posts is argumentative as far as I am concerned and not worthy of more posts as this subject has already been beaten to death. Lets just call it a muddy hole in the gound created by a meteorite and be done with it. Best Regards, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Michael Farmer wrote: Tim, it is somewhere in the 10 kilo range, giv or take a kilo. Of the 10 kilos I know of, about 6 kilograms was fine dust in baggies. Hans Koser has this material, he was trying to sell it at the Tucson show. Moritz Karl and I bought the other ~3 kilos he had, and most of that is sold now. I have less than 400 grams of material left for sale. Calr Esparza in Tucson got around 1.4 kilo with Bob Haag, I bought all of Bob's share from him. There is about a kilo in a museum in La Paz, Bolivia. So around 12 kilos is my estimate of total material recovered. Michael Farmer --- Tim Heitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Has any one ever determined how much of was recovered? Thanks, Tim - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Adam You told everyone on this list that Carancas was not a crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven right with the papers in the news this week, I am merely clarifying that, nothing more. Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated idiots pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, make it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was handled fine on my end, things just got bad when police tried to steal all of our money. What is your advice, should I have gone to the president of Peru? When you are in the crap, you make decisions on the spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk and typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor people who had no idea what was going on, the government was inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage of the situation to try and rob us, then the proverbial crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the crater was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was saved, and the rest, as they say, it history. Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike and List, I conceded the point long ago that the term crater also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated that there are different types of craters and this one falls into the impact pit category as was the case with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also explosive embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred to them as impact pits. I admit the definition is somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To me," My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was over-hyped from the beginning with much misinformation surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will treat you the way you allow them, the same applies to the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the impact pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed soon became a problem. I think if the event was handled in a more professional matter, I would not have a problem with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for the way it was handled. The last from me on this, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
By the way, I have seen those milimetric holes on the surface of some sikhote refered as "craters". Is that detail of terminology so important? - Original Message - From: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Hi Mike and List Members, To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a form of crater. I will concede the point that it is also a crater by other definitions, just not meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced several impact pits that were described as such further constraining the meteoritic definition of an impact crater. Here is a great reference site that clearly defines crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely defining it as a pit. http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no more than a depression in the ground with urine, fecal matter and trash in it. Not to forget, a $90,000.00 roof will be added on top of a rotted out and the most common type of ordinary chondrite in existence at the bottom. All the best, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
Ted and List, I'm happy to see you weigh in on this. Maybe this will stop the quibbling. I sense an odor of sour grapes in this thread anyhow. If one [or more] of our "team" managed to get there and survey the site, survive angry protestations, bring back a quantity for us to share, why quibble over terminology. Subsequent investigations corroborate earlier assessments and now this meteorite is being recognized for its historic import. HYPERVELOCITY is the watch word anyway. That don't happen every day[at least witnessed!] Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: "Ted Bunch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater I am not sure why there is an argument about whether or not Carancas is an impact crater. Of course it is! In scientific terminology, impact pit is not acceptable. Let's review the facts: 1) The Carancas crater was produced by a hypervelocity impactor that excavated a deep hole and formed a raised rim of target materials (unconsolidated clastic debris). 2) Produced ejecta rays out 350 m from the crater 3) The event had sufficient shock energy to cause classic shock features in target quartz. 4) There is no size limitation for use of the term "crater" as long as the feature fits the accepted scientific constraints, e. g., formed by hypervelocity impact. LDEF (Long Duration Exposure Facility) flew in space for 5.5 years and studies of the facility skin showed thousands of craters as small as a few microns. Similar tiny craters have been found all over space shuttle vehicles. Apollo glassy spherules and rock samples show tiny impact craters as do several meteorite surfaces. In all of these cases, scientific reports used the term "crater". Ted Bunch (an innocent bystander with 40 + years of professional experience in impact cratering) On 2/28/08 11:01 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: All: See the site (http://unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase). On the first page you will find the criteria for inclusion within this database (which is the most comprehensive and well-researched list on the planet). Sikhote-Alin is listed, Carancas is not (yet?). Also note Wabar and Haviland, both of which are termed "craters" and do fall within Adam's range of 5-20 m. The term impact "pit" is not listed in the Glossary of Geology (Jackson, 1997, 4th ed.), and is thus likely a loosely-used definition. Impact crater is listed in the Glossary and is defined as "a generally circular crater formed either by impact of a projectile on a planetary surface or by an experimental hypervelocity impact of a projectile into solid matter..." I would hedge a bet that Carancas will be considered an impact crater. Matt -- Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 USA -----Original Message- From: Michael Farmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:40:39 To:Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Adam Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater I did not realize that the website you listed was the definitive and final place which determines craters vs pits. It seems that some of the top scientists in the world think that it is a crater, perhaps you should enlighten them. Carancas is a crater, and I am not sure:), but I do believe that the impact of a meteorite created it, thus, I am still confused, but would that not tend to suggest that it is meteoritic? Adam, I think regardless of whether it is a common chondrite, the simple fact that it exists forces science to re-calculate its models for impact craters by chondrites. So Carancas is extremely important. I forsee papers written about Carancas for decades. There will be no roof built, the crater is already mostly destroyed (as I predicted that it would be, thanks to those of us who went there, at least some material was preserved). Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Mike and List Members, To me, Carancas produced an "impact pit" which is a form of crater. I will concede the point that it is also a crater by other definitions, just not meteoritic. The Sikhote Alin event also produced several impact pits that were described as such further constraining the meteoritic definition of an impact crater. Here is a great reference site that clearly defines crater sizes of 5-20 meters as "impact pits". Carancas only produced a 13 meter mud hole squarely defining it as a pit. http://www.somerikko.net/old/geo/imp/listinfo.htm Pretty soon, the Carancas impact pit it will be no more than a depression in the ground wit
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater
It doesn't matter to me what it is called. I'm just glad I bought a piece from Michael Farmer. Being new to meteorites, this is my first one. I have bought a few since, but I'm proud to have a Carancas for my first. ( you know there are a few "firsts" in life that you NEVER FORGET.) Thanks Michael Barry Davis - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tim Heitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Tim, it is somewhere in the 10 kilo range, giv or take a kilo. Of the 10 kilos I know of, about 6 kilograms was fine dust in baggies. Hans Koser has this material, he was trying to sell it at the Tucson show. Moritz Karl and I bought the other ~3 kilos he had, and most of that is sold now. I have less than 400 grams of material left for sale. Calr Esparza in Tucson got around 1.4 kilo with Bob Haag, I bought all of Bob's share from him. There is about a kilo in a museum in La Paz, Bolivia. So around 12 kilos is my estimate of total material recovered. Michael Farmer --- Tim Heitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Has any one ever determined how much of was recovered? Thanks, Tim - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater > Adam > You told everyone on this list that Carancas was not a > crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven right > with the papers in the news this week, I am merely > clarifying that, nothing more. > Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated idiots > pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, make > it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was > handled fine on my end, things just got bad when > police tried to steal all of our money. What is your > advice, should I have gone to the president of Peru? > When you are in the crap, you make decisions on the > spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk and > typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor people > who had no idea what was going on, the government was > inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage of > the situation to try and rob us, then the proverbial > crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the crater > was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was saved, > and the rest, as they say, it history. > Michael Farmer > --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Mike and List, >> >> I conceded the point long ago that the term crater >> also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated >> that there are different types of craters and this >> one >> falls into the impact pit category as was the case >> with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters >> (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also >> explosive >> embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet >> Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred >> to >> them as impact pits. I admit the definition is >> somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To >> me," >> >> My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was >> over-hyped from the beginning with much >> misinformation >> surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the >> occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will >> treat you the way you allow them, the same applies >> to >> the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the >> impact >> pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed >> soon >> became a problem. I think if the event was handled >> in >> a more professional matter, I would not have a >> problem >> with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for >> the way it was handled. >> >> The last from me on this, >> >> Adam >> >> >> >> > > __ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater...recovered amount
According to the Bolivian mineral dealers several kilos went over the border, much of which I was told was sold to someone in Japan. A lot is still being sold out of Bolivia. At the moment on ebay..some larger pieces. Item number: 170197093360 Item number: 180212970860 Item number: 180199806156 Item number: 180210443310 Graham Ensor Michael Farmer wrote: Tim, it is somewhere in the 10 kilo range, giv or take a kilo. Of the 10 kilos I know of, about 6 kilograms was fine dust in baggies. Hans Koser has this material, he was trying to sell it at the Tucson show. Moritz Karl and I bought the other ~3 kilos he had, and most of that is sold now. I have less than 400 grams of material left for sale. Calr Esparza in Tucson got around 1.4 kilo with Bob Haag, I bought all of Bob's share from him. There is about a kilo in a museum in La Paz, Bolivia. So around 12 kilos is my estimate of total material recovered. Michael Farmer --- Tim Heitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Has any one ever determined how much of was recovered? Thanks, Tim - Original Message - From: "Michael Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Adam Hupe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Adam" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas crater Adam You told everyone on this list that Carancas was not a crater, you have been proven wrong, I was proven right with the papers in the news this week, I am merely clarifying that, nothing more. Now, what problem is it of mine that uneducated idiots pissed in the crater? Does that ruin the event, make it useless, wipe it from the history books? It was handled fine on my end, things just got bad when police tried to steal all of our money. What is your advice, should I have gone to the president of Peru? When you are in the crap, you make decisions on the spot, it is not as easy as sitting at your desk and typing emails. The locals were nice, just poor people who had no idea what was going on, the government was inept and corrupt, and the police took advantage of the situation to try and rob us, then the proverbial crap hit the fan from all sides. Oh well, the crater was studied, a tiny amount of the meteorite was saved, and the rest, as they say, it history. Michael Farmer --- Adam Hupe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike and List, I conceded the point long ago that the term crater also applies to the Carancas event. I also stated that there are different types of craters and this one falls into the impact pit category as was the case with the Sikhote Alin event. Some of the craters (impact pits) left by Sikhote Alin were also explosive embedding pieces of the meteorite in trees and yet Ninninger, along with dozens of scientists referred to them as impact pits. I admit the definition is somewhat hazy is why I qualified the term with "To me," My only problem with the Carancas thing is that was over-hyped from the beginning with much misinformation surrounding it. Then, no respect was given to the occurrence and a circus soon followed. People will treat you the way you allow them, the same applies to the Carancas event. Trash was thrown into the impact pit, people relieved themselves into it and greed soon became a problem. I think if the event was handled in a more professional matter, I would not have a problem with it. The way it stands, I have zero respect for the way it was handled. The last from me on this, Adam __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Carancas crater - 8 months later
Hello list, last week I visited the impact site in Carancas, Peru for my very last time. I´m heading back to Germany soon... I found the crater covered with a tarpaulin. After more than eight months since the impact it is pretty much eroded, the rims are much shallower than at my last visit on september 26, 2007. The water inside the crater ist approx. 30 cm deep, the crater bottom is completely shoaled. Although local authorities had claimed to preserve the crater in novermber 2007, obviously not very much has happend since then. There are 4 concrete pillars surrounding the crater, approx. 1,5 meters high, that ought to be the basis for a roof that was supposed to protect the crater from the heavy rainfall in the rainseason. However, it looks very much as if these construction works hav been stopped some time ago. As I write in my report, the structure of these pillows looks very similar to to the fragile character of the Carancas meteorites... There have been some diggings in the vicinity of the crater, it was explained to me that they are to redirect the flow of surface water. My guide (who was the same guy that brought me there on my first visit on september 22) told me that sometimes tourists came to Desaguadero to visit the crater. On the way there I was offered some "meteorites". I found that most of them were just dust from mother earth, but among the dust were indeed some tiny meteorite fragments! I took the fragments and left the dust for the other tourists :-) You can find some fotos and my report (in german, but I mentioned the interesting part in this email) on my webblog: http://www.kosmologs.de/kosmo/blog/himmelslichter/chile-2008/2008-06-05/8-monate-danach-besuch-am-meteoritenkrater-von-carancas Best regards fom Peru: Jan -- Das Universum expandiert? Komisch, ich finde immer seltener einem Parkplatz! (Harald Lesch) Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
