Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 22:21 -0400 7/21/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 7/21/03 9:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

[In case anyone cares: i stick by my guns that they can't claim "d20"
as trademark *or* PI.  I wonder if i'll ever do anything that
challenges that claim.]


 >

You mean, like producing a d20 product that even refers to a "d20" 
as a variance die or a damage die or anything?  Claiming "d20", 
unmodified, as PI basically all but closes off the SRD from being 
used and even talking about rules or task resolution.
Well, it's the "d20 product" part that is iffy for me.  Or, rather, 
whether i'll ever produce a work licensed under the WotC OGL and 
built upon the D20SRD.  Perhaps-- a couple of projects in the works, 
but one may not happen, and the other may not end up being D20.

But you're right, taken at face value, you can't so much as refer to 
"roll Strength + d20" without infringing.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 21:37 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
Well, the development cycle is CONSIDERABLY longer than in software
development.  If you think the fans were screaming over a new version after
three years, think how they'd scream if a new version came out every six
months!
all the more reason to reuse, and save development time--especially 
if the stuff being reused is tried-and-true, and *good*.

Anyway, i must've said something wrong, 'cause that's two people that 
seemed to think i was suggesting D&D have a more-rapid development 
cycle.  Just to be absolutely clear: i'm advocating no such thing. 
Rather, i'm advocating that it use the best material out there to 
make the game better, rather than restricting itself to WotC's 
in-house designers.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 21:37 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
A lot of things that were being done by fans (and a few things being done by
other D20 games) were included in 3.5.
Such as?  I'm seriously interested.  From everything i've read 
online, the changes definitely addressed *problems* that fans had 
brought up, but i didn't get the impression that the *solutions* fans 
had implemented were being used.  And it can't very well be using any 
rules content from other D20 games, since it's not abiding by the 
WotC OGL--unless WotC wants to reverse their stance on the ownability 
of game mechanics, and claim that they can't be IP.  (Well, unless 
there's a separate agreement/license to use the material, of coures. 
But unless there's material being reused, it's a moot point.)
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 19:39 -0700 7/21/03, Marty Minick wrote:
1) The "kernel" If WOTC (and the mass of gamers) could afford to 
have monthly updates to the core rulebooks, they would. BUT... the 
large majority of gamers that i know are complaining about the 
upgrade to 3.5 because of the cost.
More the cost-to-utility ratio, is what i've heard.  People are 
bitching not just because they have to buy new books, but because 
they aren't all that different, either.  Now, of course, if the 
change was as radical as from AD&D2 to D&D3E, we'd be hearing a whole 
'nother calibre of bitchin'.  But, I haven't heard anyone complaining 
because it'll cost them $60 to pick up Arcana Unearthed and Diamand 
Throne, because the material is new and/or different and/or better, 
at least in some sense.  I certainly am not suggesting monthly 
updates.  I'm suggesting that WotC keep an eye on what's good and 
what's popular in other D20 products, and incorporate the best of the 
OGC into their new edition every 3/5/X years.  While 3.5E apparently 
responds to lots of critiques of 3E, which is good, it's not the same 
thing.  One is reactive ("this is broke, so we'll fix it"), the other 
is proactive ("let's find new cool ways to improve the game").  The 
former will refine D&D, but never evolve it.
[/hyperbole]

2) Dragon Magazine is (according to the cover, as if there was ever 
any doubt) "100% Official" Therefore, it's as close as it comes to 
the montly updates, and each and every game wherein the DM or one of 
the players has a subscription benefits from the many monkeys.
ok.  that's news to me.  I hadn't realized regular "official" D&D 
material had shown up in Dragon (other than perhaps Sage Advice) 
since From the Sorcerer's Scroll stopped appearing.  Apparently the 
stance has changed (i haven't read it closely since they dropped 
non-D&D material a few years ago).  Historically (as in, for the 15 
years i had a subscription, and most of the 8 years before that), 
Dragon has made a big deal about how *none* of the material was 
"official", except for a few select columns (like From the Sorcerer's 
Scroll).  So that's why there's "any doubt" as to its officialness 
(i.e., i'm apparently out of touch).
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing (PSI)

2003-07-21 Thread Roger Bert
Seriously they are redoing the Psi handbook too? I know they are redoing all
the splatbooks. What else is being redone?
-Roger

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of M Jason
Parent
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing


I VERY MUCH believe that some third-party material WILL be making it into
the 'kernel' next spring. Remember the accidental reissue of the psionics
chapter when they did the final SRD release? Those prestige classes from If
Thoughts Could Kill were in it instead of the ones from the PsiHB.

And the PsiHB3.5 comes out in the spring, so here's my $10 bet that we'll
see some third-party material in it.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of woodelf
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing


At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
>--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
>>  >Tell them it works like Linux...
>>
>>  ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want,
>>  except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it
>>  is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
>
>Think so?  Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where
they've
>published OGC content.  That's now available to a HUGE number of games.

it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel".  not saying it
never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating
around out there and make the next version of D&D the latest,
cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, D&D
itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development.
Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing.  But
not from the "many monkeys" thing.

and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like
reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned
Dragon published unofficial game stuff.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread M Jason Parent
I VERY MUCH believe that some third-party material WILL be making it into
the 'kernel' next spring. Remember the accidental reissue of the psionics
chapter when they did the final SRD release? Those prestige classes from If
Thoughts Could Kill were in it instead of the ones from the PsiHB.

And the PsiHB3.5 comes out in the spring, so here's my $10 bet that we'll
see some third-party material in it.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of woodelf
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing


At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
>--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
>>  >Tell them it works like Linux...
>>
>>  ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want,
>>  except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it
>>  is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
>
>Think so?  Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where
they've
>published OGC content.  That's now available to a HUGE number of games.

it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel".  not saying it
never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating
around out there and make the next version of D&D the latest,
cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, D&D
itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development.
Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing.  But
not from the "many monkeys" thing.

and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like
reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned
Dragon published unofficial game stuff.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Fred

--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
> >--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>... changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
> >
> >Think so?  Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where
> they've
> >published OGC content.  That's now available to a HUGE number of games.
> 
> it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel".  not saying it 
> never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating 
> around out there and make the next version of D&D the latest, 
> cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, D&D 
> itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. 
> Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing.  But 
> not from the "many monkeys" thing.

Well, the development cycle is CONSIDERABLY longer than in software
development.  If you think the fans were screaming over a new version after
three years, think how they'd scream if a new version came out every six
months!

A lot of things that were being done by fans (and a few things being done by
other D20 games) were included in 3.5.


=
BORGSTROM'S FIRST LAW (of Game Design):  "If you want to emphasize something, make 
sure everyone knows that they shouldn't have anything to do with it."

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Joe Crow
Hey, Andy! 

Let me add another chorus of "Good job, man!"

...and also a tiny refrain of "The srdpsionicpowersijklmnop.rtf file seems
to be missing, though."

-- Joe Crow/Glasscastle Productions

d20 Games and Campaign Settings/Freelance Game Writing


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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Tim Dugger
On 21 Jul 2003 woodelf scribbled a note about Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly):

> more likely, it's because now they have a leg to stand on if they want
> to stop people putting "d20" in the title of their non-D20STL book. 
> And other similar things--the vast majority of those terms likely
> couldn't be trademarked, so they, previously, had no power to stop
> others using them.  Also, the wording of the WotC OGL restrictions on
> trademark aren't nearly as strong as those on PI, so it gives them
> more power to keep others from using them.

Except that to use d20 in the title, a company would apparently only 
have to use the 3.0 SRD as their base, rather than the 3.5 SRD.

At least, that is what I see happening here.
TANSTAAFL
Rasyr (Tim Dugger)
 System Editor
 Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com
 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Marty Minick

 
OK, Had to stick this into the argument, here...
 
1) The "kernel" If WOTC (and the mass of gamers) could afford to have monthly updates to the core rulebooks, they would. BUT... the large majority of gamers that i know are complaining about the upgrade to 3.5 because of the cost.
 
2) Dragon Magazine is (according to the cover, as if there was ever any doubt) "100% Official" Therefore, it's as close as it comes to the montly updates, and each and every game wherein the DM or one of the players has a subscription benefits from the many monkeys. 
 
woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:>--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel". not saying it never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating around out there and make the next version of D&D the latest, cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, D&D itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing. But not from the "many monkeys" thing.and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned Dragon published unofficial game stuff.-- "I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature."-- Thomas Jefferson
 
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread HUDarklord
In a message dated 7/21/03 9:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


<>

Without further clarification this would seem to limit people from referring to their game as "having a d20 based task resolution system" or even referring to a "d20 roll".

How the heck can they claim d20 as PI and expect people to use the SRD?  This desperately needs clarification.

<
directly on the question of whether any "authority to contribute" is 
required for PI, as well as the questions of if that authority 
requires ownership in the usual IP sense (i.e., no unqualified common 
terms).>>

Right.  Claiming "d20" as PI without further specificity would seem to be reaching.  That seems to suggest that WotC's position is that almost anything can be claimed as PI if this stands.

<<[In case anyone cares: i stick by my guns that they can't claim "d20" 
as trademark *or* PI.  I wonder if i'll ever do anything that 
challenges that claim.]
>>


You mean, like producing a d20 product that even refers to a "d20" as a variance die or a damage die or anything?  Claiming "d20", unmodified, as PI basically all but closes off the SRD from being used and even talking about rules or task resolution.

They should have said "inclusion of the phrase 'd20' in the title of your work" or somesuch.

Lee


Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 18:36 -0400 7/21/03, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
At 05:42 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Sixten Otto wrote:

Do any of those terms actually occur in the files?
Apparently not, this list was just in case a mistake was made most likely.
more likely, it's because now they have a leg to stand on if they 
want to stop people putting "d20" in the title of their non-D20STL 
book.  And other similar things--the vast majority of those terms 
likely couldn't be trademarked, so they, previously, had no power to 
stop others using them.  Also, the wording of the WotC OGL 
restrictions on trademark aren't nearly as strong as those on PI, so 
it gives them more power to keep others from using them.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 17:41 -0400 7/21/03, Doug Meerschaert wrote:
Sure.  Take a look at any monster--the stat block is formatted as a 
real honest-to-goodness table, and is follwed immediatly by :

"

Harpies like to entrance hapless travelers with their magical songs 
and lead them to unspeakable torments. Only when a harpy has 
finished playing with its new "toys" will it release them from 
suffering by killing and consuming them.

"

:)  Dang, this is nice!  :)  :)
I suppose.  But it's not a description--or, rather, it's a 
description of behavior, not appearance.  Which is still an 
improvement, but not half as much of one as physical descriptions 
would be, IMHO.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 17:08 -0700 7/21/03, Fred wrote:
--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
 >Tell them it works like Linux...
 ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want,
 except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it
 is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
Think so?  Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where they've
published OGC content.  That's now available to a HUGE number of games.
it's still not being incorporated into "the kernel".  not saying it 
never will, but until WotC decides to take all that cool OGC floating 
around out there and make the next version of D&D the latest, 
cutting-edge game they can, using the very best ideas out there, D&D 
itself isn't directly benefitting from open-source development. 
Indirectly, sure, from the whole "network externalities" thing.  But 
not from the "many monkeys" thing.

and since WotC doesn't own Dragon any more, it's even less like 
reworking the core stuff than it would've been had a WotC-owned 
Dragon published unofficial game stuff.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 17:32 -0400 7/21/03, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
From Legal.rtf: The following items are designated Product Identity, 
as defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, 
and are subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, 
and are not Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Dungeon Master, 
Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20, Forgotten 
Realms, Faerûn, character names (including those used in the names 
of spells or items), places, Red Wizard of Thay, Heroic Domains of 
Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of 
Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of 
Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells 
of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of 
Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of 
Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, 
Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant 
Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, 
Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, 
baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, 
illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

No more "Wizards doesn't have PI" rebuttals.
doh!  Well, not really--i hadn't actually been using that loophole, exc--

hey!  they've claimed "d20" as PI.  Guess that puts the spotlight 
directly on the question of whether any "authority to contribute" is 
required for PI, as well as the questions of if that authority 
requires ownership in the usual IP sense (i.e., no unqualified common 
terms).  Not to mention that a bunch of the other terms could now 
force the question of whether PI is meaningful outside of OGC, since, 
as others have noted, almost none of those terms actually occur 
within OGC (legally, at least) anywhere.

[In case anyone cares: i stick by my guns that they can't claim "d20" 
as trademark *or* PI.  I wonder if i'll ever do anything that 
challenges that claim.]
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Damian
On Monday 21 July 2003 05:41 pm, Doug Meerschaert wrote:
> Sure.  Take a look at any monster--the stat block is formatted as a real
> honest-to-goodness table, and is follwed immediatly by :

Home now, and as I catch up on this thread I'm realizing I had the full zip 
which turned out to be of 3.0.  No wonder I didn't see any difference.

-Damian
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Fred

--- woodelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
> >Tell them it works like Linux...
> 
> ...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, 
> except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it 
> is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.

Think so?  Take a look in some of the recent Dragon magazines, where they've
published OGC content.  That's now available to a HUGE number of games.

=
BORGSTROM'S FIRST LAW (of Game Design):  "If you want to emphasize something, make 
sure everyone knows that they shouldn't have anything to do with it."

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RE: [Ogf-l] d20 License/ was SRD released

2003-07-21 Thread Roger Bert
Greetings. Has/Will the d20 System license document change? Thanks.
-Roger
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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread William Wise
OK, more like BSD then...

:-)

Will

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of woodelf
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
>Tell them it works like Linux...

...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, 
except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it 
is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
-- 
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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RE: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Ryan S. Dancey
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 14:20, Smith, Andrew wrote:
> Let's just blame that on burnout from working on the 
> SRD for a month straight.

Speaking from personal experience, I say "Excellent work well done!"

Drinks at GenCon (if you'll be there) on me.

Ryan


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RE: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Reginald Cablayan


> From: Smith, Andrew
> 
> Thanks, Doug.  The web team didn't jump the gun, I just 
> forgot that we had said it would be up within a few days of 
> the book's release.  Let's just blame that on burnout from 
> working on the SRD for a month straight.  After I was 
> reminded of our promised release date I begged to have it 
> pushed forward.  Looks like it worked.
> 
> 
> Andy Smith
> Publishing/d20 Licensing
> Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

You better get those web team back on the job. Some of the links are broken.
One thread offered the corrected links.

OBTW, the SRDTreasure.rtf document is the same as the original and not
formatted with the rest of the Revised SRD. IOW, the charts and tables are
"bleah" compared to the other sections.

One more thing, where is the original SRD?


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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Sixten Otto
At 06:35 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum wrote:
I'm thinking that I'll wait a while before I download the new SRD. I'd 
hate to start work on something only to later find out that half of what I 
was using were 3.0 files mistakenly left on the site, or something of the sort.
It should be pretty easy to tell. The modifications dates on the files are 
vastly different, for one thing, and the formatting of the document 
contents is, as far as I've seen, quite distinct.

Sixten

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Moses Wildermuth
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:16:33 EDT, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In a message dated 7/21/03 6:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


<<> Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but 
I > just discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, 
and > have NOT been updated.)

Oops -- that may explain my puzzlement over Rangers... The ZIP files are 
fouled up.



I noticed the download size was only 1.2 megs while the stated size was 1.7 
megs.  Perhaps that could explain a missing half meg or so?

--
Moses "Wolfy" Wildermuth (Mosopoli)
http://www.mosopoli.com/

I chat on ICQ or AIM
13469530 or Wolfy2264
I use M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread woodelf
At 10:25 -0400 7/21/03, William Wise wrote:
Tell them it works like Linux...
...except a Linux where anybody can develop anything they want, 
except a new TCP/IP stack, and no matter what you do or how good it 
is, your changes will never be reincorporated into new Linux builds.
--
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Steven \"Conan\" Trustrum
I'm thinking that I'll wait a while before I download the new SRD. I'd hate 
to start work on something only to later find out that half of what I was 
using were 3.0 files mistakenly left on the site, or something of the sort.

Steven "Conan" Trustrum
  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Homepage: http://www.trustrum.com
"The only real people are the people that never existed" -- Oscar Wilde
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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Sixten Otto
At 11:31 PM 7/21/2003 +0100, David Chart wrote:
As Doug said, the big zip still has the old SRD in. The smaller zips do 
seem to have the new one, though.
True. The Psionics zip seems to be MIA, though.

Sixten

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Joe Mucchiello
At 05:42 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Sixten Otto wrote:
At 05:32 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
No more "Wizards doesn't have PI" rebuttals.
Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but I 
just discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, and 
have NOT been updated.)
Apparently not, this list was just in case a mistake was made most likely.

The "All of the SRD" zip has not been updated. The 5 SRD chunks are the 3.5 
SRD.

Even the Hells of Baator are replaced (in the pit fiend entry) with 
"Environment: A lawful evil-aligned plane"

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread David Chart
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 23:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I downloaded the master ZIP file.  Did anyone else finding it missing
> Barbarian-Monk character classes?  I found those elsewhere on the SRD
> page.
> 
> Also, somebody told me Rangers have a d8 for HD.  Is that right?  The
> SRD says d10.

As Doug said, the big zip still has the old SRD in. The smaller zips do
seem to have the new one, though.

And rangers have a d8 for HD.

-- 
David Chart
http://www.dchart.demon.co.uk/
PGP Key: 1786 15B1 53A3 7ED0 CBD4 AFBE 9B61 6D10 46C9 1CBE

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread DarkTouch
*chuckle*
Except the Psionic one doesn't seem to be downloading, but since 
psionics hasn't been updated.. you can download the psionics stuff 
through the master zip file and then just download the rest of the 
mini-zip files.

Doug Meerschaert wrote:

Sixten Otto wrote:

Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but 
I just discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, 
and have NOT been updated.)


The mini-ZIPs do.

DM

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread HUDarklord
In a message dated 7/21/03 6:05:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


<<> Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but I 
> just discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, and 
> have NOT been updated.)
>>

Oops -- that may explain my puzzlement over Rangers... The ZIP files are fouled up.

Thanks,
Lee


Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread HUDarklord
I downloaded the master ZIP file.  Did anyone else finding it missing Barbarian-Monk character classes?  I found those elsewhere on the SRD page.

Also, somebody told me Rangers have a d8 for HD.  Is that right?  The SRD says d10.

Lee


Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Doug Meerschaert
Sixten Otto wrote:

Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but I 
just discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, and 
have NOT been updated.)
The mini-ZIPs do. 

DM

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Fred

--- Joe Mucchiello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  From Legal.rtf: The following items are designated Product Identity, as 
> defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are 
> subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not 
> Open Content:  Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, 
> Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian 
> Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine 
> Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of 
> Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of 
> Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness 
> of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the 
> Outlands, ...

Note that the words "Limbo", "Pandemonium", "Abyss", "Carceri", "Hades",
"Gehenna", "Hell", }
"Acheron", "Mechanus", "Arcadia", "Heaven", "Elysium", "Beastlands",
"Arborea", and "Outlands" are not, in and of themselves, PI...

So you could REFER to these planes without violating PI.

=
BORGSTROM'S FIRST LAW (of Game Design):  "If you want to emphasize something, make 
sure everyone knows that they shouldn't have anything to do with it."

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Sixten Otto
At 05:32 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
No more "Wizards doesn't have PI" rebuttals.
Do any of those terms actually occur in the files? (I'm looking, but I just 
discovered that the ZIP versions are still the 3.0 SRD files, and have NOT 
been updated.)

Sixten

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Damian
From: "Joe Mucchiello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> mind flayer, illithid,

Odd, they didn't put the Illithid back in.  I guess that was since they're
mentioned elsewhere like the Grimlock entry.

-Damian

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RE: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Sixten Otto
At 02:20 PM 7/21/2003 -0700, Smith, Andrew wrote:
Let's just blame that on burnout from working on the SRD for a month straight.
Well, from what I've seen of your work so far, let me commend you on the 
result. The revised SRD looks great! Thanks for all of your hard (and, I'm 
sure, tedious) work.

Sixten

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Doug Meerschaert




Damian wrote:

  Tables and monster descriptions??  I know I'm looking at the 3.5 SRD, but
I'm not seeing any of those things.  Can you give me some examples?
  

Sure.  Take a look at any monster--the stat block is formatted as a
real honest-to-goodness table, and is follwed immediatly by :

"
Harpies like to
entrance
hapless travelers with their magical songs and lead them to unspeakable
torments. Only when a harpy has finished playing with its new “toys”
will it
release them from suffering by killing and consuming them.
"

:)  Dang, this is nice!  :)  :)  


DM




Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Joe Mucchiello
At 05:03 PM 7/21/2003 -0400, Doug Meerschaert wrote:
Don't know if their web-staff jumped the gun, or if it's just up nice and 
early, but the 3.5 SRD is up on WotC's website.

More after I digest it--but on first looks, I must say that I am very 
impressed with it.  Still RTF, but with real tables--and monster descriptions.

Andy, if you're still on the list--you rock!


Wow,

From Legal.rtf: The following items are designated Product Identity, as 
defined in Section 1(e) of the Open Game License Version 1.0a, and are 
subject to the conditions set forth in Section 7 of the OGL, and are not 
Open Content: Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 
System, Wizards of the Coast, d20, Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, character 
names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Red 
Wizard of Thay, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, 
Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian 
Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine 
Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of 
Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of 
Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness 
of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the 
Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile 
Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer 
beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti.

No more "Wizards doesn't have PI" rebuttals.

Glad I got a look before heading out to GenCon.

  Joe

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com 

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RE: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Smith, Andrew

Thanks, Doug.  The web team didn't jump the gun, I just forgot that we had said it 
would be up within a few days of the book's release.  Let's just blame that on burnout 
from working on the SRD for a month straight.  After I was reminded of our promised 
release date I begged to have it pushed forward.  Looks like it worked.


Andy Smith
Publishing/d20 Licensing
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.




-Original Message-
From: Doug Meerschaert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 2:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)


Don't know if their web-staff jumped the gun, or if it's just up nice 
and early, but the 3.5 SRD is up on WotC's website.

More after I digest it--but on first looks, I must say that I am very 
impressed with it.  Still RTF, but with real tables--and monster 
descriptions.

Andy, if you're still on the list--you rock! 


DM

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Damian
From: "Doug Meerschaert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> More after I digest it--but on first looks, I must say that I am very
> impressed with it.  Still RTF, but with real tables--and monster
> descriptions.

Tables and monster descriptions??  I know I'm looking at the 3.5 SRD, but
I'm not seeing any of those things.  Can you give me some examples?

-Damian

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Re: [Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Damian
From: "Doug Meerschaert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Don't know if their web-staff jumped the gun, or if it's just up nice
> and early, but the 3.5 SRD is up on WotC's website.

Wow, talk about a different definition of midnight! ;)  That must have just
hit, I just double checked the SRD there with the Mind Flayer thread on
DND-L earlier.  Oh well, thanks for the heads up I grabbed it before it
gets, umm, fanboyed?

-Damian

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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Ryan S. Dancey
On Sun, 2003-07-20 at 22:39, Martin L. Shoemaker wrote:

> And by comparison, on Amazon.com, the D&D Players Handbook is currently
> ranked 15 in sales (DMG is 16, MM is 19).

The day it shipped, the 3.0 PHB hit #3, behind a Harry Potter book and a
Tom Clancy novel.

:)

Ryan


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[Ogf-l] SRD released (apparantly)

2003-07-21 Thread Doug Meerschaert
Don't know if their web-staff jumped the gun, or if it's just up nice 
and early, but the 3.5 SRD is up on WotC's website.

More after I digest it--but on first looks, I must say that I am very 
impressed with it.  Still RTF, but with real tables--and monster 
descriptions.

Andy, if you're still on the list--you rock! 

DM

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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread William Wise
My thoughts exactly but it wouldn't be Hasbro that would do the suing. 
 It would be some company they sell the IP to later on. You'd want to take a
step or two back from the franchise so as not to get your own hands dirty.



Will

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Looney
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 10:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

Tim Dugger wrote:

>On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the
D20 licensing:
>
>  
>
>>Tell them it works like Linux...
>>
>>
>
>So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? 
>
>  
>
Only if Hasbro starts trying to sue people who make d20 products.



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Re: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Mike Looney
Tim Dugger wrote:

On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing:

 

Tell them it works like Linux...
   

So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? 

 

Only if Hasbro starts trying to sue people who make d20 products.



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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread Tim Dugger
On 21 Jul 2003 William scribbled a note about RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 
licensing:

> Tell them it works like Linux...

So does that make Hasbro the equivalent of SCO? 

:)

TANSTAAFL
Rasyr (Tim Dugger)
 System Editor
 Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com
 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

2003-07-21 Thread William Wise
Tell them it works like Linux...

:-)

Will

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of woodelf
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 11:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Ogf-l] understanding the D20 licensing

OK, all of you saying that the public is clueless about D20/OGL, you 
get to say "i told you so":

I just followed a link to the WotC boards, looking for something 
else.  And there, in a thread about the release of D&D3.5E, is 
someone sayin' "i just don't get this whole OGL thing--how does WotC 
expect to make any money if they give their books away?" [i'm 
paraphrasing, but not by much].  Three years later, and this is 
someone who's at least sufficiently net-savvy to know it exists, and 
to be chatting online.  And he doesn't actually know how the whole 
D20STL thing works, in terms of a business model.  And the original 
D20SRD certainly hasn't made WotC bankrupt, so assuming that they are 
somehow "giving it all away" seems vaguely ludicrous, and yet here he 
is asking just that.

OK, you win (whoever "you" are)--we've still got a long way to go in 
making open gaming a viable beast, and giving "D20 System" some 
reasonable fraction of the oomph of "D&D" on a book.
-- 
woodelf<*>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/

The Laws of Anime :
#8 Second Law of Temporal Mortality
It takes some time for bad guys to die... regardless of physical damage.
Even when the 'Bad Guys' are killed so quickly they didn't even see it
coming, it takes them a while to realize they are dead. This is
attributed to the belief that being evil damages the Reality Lobe of the
brain.
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